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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?
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Fisherman80
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The 3 car 144 in the video still has SCG gearboxes. From memory the 3 car 144s were converted to Voith later around March 1991.
A Voith fitted set could be distinguished as the gearbox bracket had two outriggers on each side. On the exhaust side, they went over the silencer box. On the other side, the gearbox valve block box was mounted between them and was initially white.
This video shows two 142s at Huyton in 1988. The leading unit is a Voith conversion, the rear one still has SCG gearboxes:
That power control doors video
had me in stitches.
A class 155 with door defects?
They were the worst units Canton ever had.
Doors always flying open when passed by other trains.
These were the main reason loco haulage and the reintroduction of some 1st gen DMU's returned to South Wales.
As well as some 156s on loan from Inverness.
Great videos.
had me in stitches.
A class 155 with door defects?
They were the worst units Canton ever had.
Doors always flying open when passed by other trains.
These were the main reason loco haulage and the reintroduction of some 1st gen DMU's returned to South Wales.
As well as some 156s on loan from Inverness.
Great videos.
northernchris
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Leeds does have some horrendous overcrowding, so on days when there's a cancellation or a short form it can be 2 or 3 trains until you're able to board a service. With the 1725 Morecambe though it picks up a lot of Airedale line commuters who used to catch the 1726 Skipton which has since been retimed to 1718. Removing the Bingley call would help to free up some capacity for those going longer distance, however I did see this service a couple of weeks ago running as a 150 and they were only a handful of standing passengers.
I'm still to remain convinced that once all the new trains are in service and the cascades have occurred that there will be sufficient capacity across the major cities, and Northern really need to be hanging on to any unit they can for as long as they can
London trains tend to be designed with better standing provision though, I made a comment about this in the Northern 769/319 thread. Northern’s 142,15x stock are way behind in this regard.
I see a lot of denial on here about just how bad the stock and overcrowding situation is on Northerns peak time services. Maybe posters just want to support the railway in general, but I’m convinced they aren’t regular peak time travellers. Travelling from Wigan to Manchester at peak time now even 4 car 156 services are full and standing especially from Bolton and Atherton, it’s that bad. This isn’t a short London tube style journey, people are standing for 30-50 minutes. The regular 2 car services are full and leave people on the platform. 6 car services are needed now, maybe 8 in the next few years, but there are very few stations on Northern’s network that can take even 6 car 156 services. New trains will attract more passengers, I’m sure of it, how they are supposed to fit on the current and ordered stock is anyone’s guess???
No one is questioning that there is huge overcrowding today. No one is in denial about it. What myself and others are questioning is the assumption Pacers will be needed by 2020.
Between now and the end of 2019 Northern will lose 102 Pacers, 1 loco hauled Mark II set, 3 borrowed 185s and 17 x 323s. They are due another 12 cascaded DMUs, 8 x 769s (with more seats than double Pacers), most of the much larger 195s and 331s. Once the testing of Bolton wires is done Northern can start to sort out the imbalance of too many EMUs and too few DMUs. In terms of seats nearly twice as many are being gained as being lost.
Pacers withdrawal is a catch 22, people love to moan about them but whatever replaces them will never be enough for anyone standing. Deciding in 2014 to withdraw every unit by the end of 2019 was probably the right balance. It maximises their use while avoiding wasting money on PRM mods on units that are basically life expired. They became a political symbol for lack of investment in the north. No one should be surprised that a Chancellor who represented a constituentency that they run through decided to withdraw them and in a way that was extremely difficult to stop.
northernchris
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It will depend on how Northern use the remaining DMUs. Take the Rochdale - Blackburn / Clitheroe service, most diagrams are currently 150+153. Once the 153s go will all these become 4 car services? If so, great but there's potential for capacity reductions. Likewise if a 2 car 195 is used solo it won't represent any significant increase over any current unit
I missed the 23 x 153, 3 x 321 and 5 x 322s!
I think Northern are getting a small number of 3 car 150s. I agree that the capacity improvements (or lack of) will vary across services but Northern have many options for spreading it out. Tagging on non compliant units such as 153s onto compliant units would be much more likely than retaining Pacers. Northern have 23 and more could be available. Replacing a 2 coach sprinter with a 2 coach 195 won't alter capacity much but further down the internal cascade replacing a 2 coach pacer with a 2 coach sprinter is a significant increase.
I guess the Harrogate line has been one of the first Northernland places to see the consequences of the cascade, as 170's were first introduced and have since grown more plentiful.
The capacity of each 3 car unit is roughly the same as a combined pacer+sprinter, though somewhat less than a dual sprinter (that is nowadays a rare sight). With peak-hour services averaging roughly 12 minute intervals, and plenty of 170 diagrams, it is just enough to prevent the worst overcrowding, not leave passengers on the platform, and to keep the services running to (near) schedule.
But Northern still remind you they can take all this away from you... On the Friday evening before Christmas, what pulls into Leeds, but a fogged-up 2 car pacer for a huge crowd. A timely reminder of what the service used to be like regularly just a few short months ago...
The 14x/15x diagrams suffered from shortforming in November, but the 170s mostly coped. You have to hope that next year, more lines will be seeing that.
The capacity of each 3 car unit is roughly the same as a combined pacer+sprinter, though somewhat less than a dual sprinter (that is nowadays a rare sight). With peak-hour services averaging roughly 12 minute intervals, and plenty of 170 diagrams, it is just enough to prevent the worst overcrowding, not leave passengers on the platform, and to keep the services running to (near) schedule.
But Northern still remind you they can take all this away from you... On the Friday evening before Christmas, what pulls into Leeds, but a fogged-up 2 car pacer for a huge crowd. A timely reminder of what the service used to be like regularly just a few short months ago...
The 14x/15x diagrams suffered from shortforming in November, but the 170s mostly coped. You have to hope that next year, more lines will be seeing that.
anamyd
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Demonstrates the sound difference perfectly! Leyland and SCG, and Leyland and Voith. And then of course all of them were converted to Voith and then in the early to mid 90s the Cummins engines were fitted. I actually learned recently that the SCG final drives were retained (only the transmissions themselves were replaced) but by 2012 some of them were no longer able to be maintained and the solution has come in the form of some Pacers nowadays having new Voith Cardan shafts.
Yes, the Pacers have lasted as long as many classes of first generation DMUs and are basically life expired. However, you can tar the Class 150s with the same brush. I remember reading when they were built that their corrugated steel bodies had a design life of 30 years and corrosion issues are now a problem on many units.
In my view the Class 150s (especially the 150/1s), are the worst trains Northern have – even the Pacers beat them. They’re very much as built, which means there’s no tables, the engines are very noisy and the views are poor because of the window and doorway arrangements; they’re less than ideal on scenic lines. Admittedly, there’s not a lot can be done with the major design defects, but the erstwhile Arriva Trains Wales refurbished their 150/2s and brought them up to a much higher standard. I get very stressed out when travelling on them, particularly during summer. I am very keen to to see what the Class 769s and the new 195s are like. However, I fear that the routes that I use will get cascaded 150s in place of Pacers. If that is the case, I am going to look at alternatives such as Metrolink, buses and the guided busway to use instead.
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That is correct. There were problems making spares for the SCG final drives and there had been some instances of units losing their cardan shafts at speed. This may be of interest: http://www.voith.com/corp-en/press__press-releases-99_57224.html
During the Voith conversion program, I always hoped when catching a 142 that it still had SCG gearboxes, as the Leyland engines were terribly noisy and sluggish when coupled to a Voith gearbox! For a time, the 14 GMT orange units 142001-14 were untouched and I found it reassuring when one of these turned up!
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The 150s are much better for commuter services than 142s - 142s have too few sets of doors, less space than 150s and bounce too much. On top of that it seems Northern aren't bothering doing any proper maintenance on 142s anymore as many of them ride badly now, even for Pacers and I think very few of them still have a toilet door that shuts and locks properly and many of the bus seats are so bad they should have been replaced years ago. However, like I said in the refurbishments thread the refurbishment of 150s with Ashbourne seating is terrible and they've turned seats that weren't the best in to seats which are very uncomfortable.
anamyd
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Thanks for the link
KevinTurvey
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Thanks for the links, especially the Huyton clip, which is particularly interesting, not only from the train point of view but it shows the vast changes in recent years.
I beg to differ. As I previously stated I find that the 150s are too stressful to travel on due to their very noisy engines and claustrophobic interiors...and don't get me started about Class 390s, I once nearly had a panic attack travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport on one.
Having been previously used to travelling on first generation DMUs with their good ambiance, it is fair to say that if more 150s had been built instead of Pacers, it is likey that I would have travelled a lot less by rail in the past 30+ years.
Your argument seems to be based on trains carrying the number of passengers they were designed to. If your claustrophobic and are standing on a 142 which is packed as full as it can get is as bad as a deep level tube train, the number of windows are irrelevant if you can't see them! The fact a 142 is 25% shorter than a 150 means the chance of that happening is higher if a service is run by a 142 instead of a 150.
I don't travel on trains if they are so packed. A few years ago there was a spell when a lot of Manchester Southport trains were formed of only two carriages On a couple of occasions, I was intending to go to Southport on summer days, but when the train arrived it was too packed, so I didn't get on.
What if a lot of people get on at stations after you e.g. if there's a special event on or if the service in front terminated short for whatever reason?
Whattraintoday
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However, jcollins’ post was referring to their relative suitability for commuter services. As I’m sure you appreciate, being able to pass on taking a train that’s too full is a luxury not available to most commuters.
As a Northern commuter with a 1tph service, I squash on to whatever turns up. 150s may be horrid, but the additional 9-10m length over a Pacer is pure capacity.
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That has happened occasionally. I try to find out in advance if anything special is on and avoid it. I have got off and caught a slower bus or walk it if within walking distance.
The newer rolling stock that are not built to the full rail width of 2.83m seem to be worse when packed. The 185s and 350s are prime examples. The gangways are not wide enough and it is very difficult for anyone with large shopping bags or luggage. The Pacers do at least have wide gangways. Others have cited the two steps on a Pacer as a problem for disabled users. I have noticed that although 150s etc, have only one step, it is higher than the first step on a Pacer. Also a Pacer has a narrower gap between the platform and train. On a couple of occasions, I have seen passengers fall between the train and platform when boarding a 150 (one was at Wigan Wallgate in the summer of 1992). Having got spells of lower back trouble myself, I find it daunting to board or alight a 150 at certain stations, such as the East facing platform at Todmorden, Salford Central and Wigan Wallgate.
I notice that despite being almost a decade older than 150s, the steps on 507 and 508s extend out avoiding such a big gap.
Are you joking? Most Northern 142s have 3+2 seating and you can barely walk down the aisles if all seats are occupied. The Desiros can hold a lot more standing than seated - the Pacers with 3+2 seating can't.
New trains also generally have carriages just under 24m in length.
I have not had problems walking down the gangway on a Pacer or indeed a 150 with large shopping bags. On a 185 or 350 it is another matter. Class 142 - 144s are 2.8 metres wide, 150s 2.82m, 156s 2.73m, but 185s are only 2.66 metres wide - narrower than even a 153 or 155 at 2.7 metres wide.
I have noticed that on a 185 or 350 it is difficult for the buffet staff to take the trolley down the gangway particularly if luggage is lying around.
I cannot find the seating capacity of 185s as the Platform 5 pocket books don't seem to state it. However IIRC, the Class 142 -144s with original seats seated 121.
Killingworth
Established Member
According to Wikipedia a 3 car 185 has a capacity of 154 standard, 15 first.
Thanks for that info.
The 14xs have a deceptively high seat count because they have infeasibly small seat pitch. And body width isn't everything either.
I'm 6'2" - tall but not excessive. But the seats are maybe 4" too close together to fit my knees in. If I don't sit half-perched in the aisle (losing that space), I use 2 seats because my legs need to be spread so wide.
Meanwhile the 170 is down as only being 2.69 wide - not much more than the 185. Yet it feels more spacious (to me) than either a 142 or 150 because at shoulder level (which is where humans are widest) those two have body panels, while the 170 has a window recess. And legroom, of course.
I guess what makes people feel comfortable can vary from person to person.
I'm 6'2" - tall but not excessive. But the seats are maybe 4" too close together to fit my knees in. If I don't sit half-perched in the aisle (losing that space), I use 2 seats because my legs need to be spread so wide.
Meanwhile the 170 is down as only being 2.69 wide - not much more than the 185. Yet it feels more spacious (to me) than either a 142 or 150 because at shoulder level (which is where humans are widest) those two have body panels, while the 170 has a window recess. And legroom, of course.
I guess what makes people feel comfortable can vary from person to person.
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