Huddersfield to Sheffield during Strike Action

djh1986 · 4 Jan 2019

Hi All,

Northern strike tomorrow so the usual Huddersfield to Sheffield stopper on a pacer is cancelled. Can I still buy a ticket valid for that and travel via Leeds as exceptional circumstances despite the ticket stating it is not valid via Leeds?

Will be using TPE to Leeds and CC from Leeds to Sheffield.

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ForTheLoveOf · 4 Jan 2019

djh1986 said:
Hi All,

Northern strike tomorrow so the usual Huddersfield to Sheffield stopper on a pacer is cancelled. Can I still buy a ticket valid for that and travel via Leeds as exceptional circumstances despite the ticket stating it is not valid via Leeds?

Will be using TPE to Leeds and CC from Leeds to Sheffield.

If you are able to buy a ticket, it must be accepted on a route. If rail replacement transport isn't arranged, other operators are obliged to accept your ticket, even if this requires travelling via an ordinary not permitted route.

bb21 · 4 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
If you are able to buy a ticket, it must be accepted on a route. If rail replacement transport isn't arranged, other operators are obliged to accept your ticket, even if this requires travelling via an ordinary not permitted route.

That is entirely wrong. Simply being able to buy a ticket does not mean you are entitled to make a journey via any route you want, especially if you were aware there were no trains running and your ticket cannot be used, in which case you will be entitled to a full refund.

MichaelAMW · 4 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
If you are able to buy a ticket, it must be accepted on a route. If rail replacement transport isn't arranged, other operators are obliged to accept your ticket, even if this requires travelling via an ordinary not permitted route.

Is this documented anywhere? It seems modestly reasonable but, on the other hand, you could compare with lack of Sunday services in some areas, in that both they and the strikes are known about in advance.

djh1986 · 4 Jan 2019

I've decided not to risk it and split ticket it by buying a single from Huddersfield to Leeds and then an advance from Leeds to Sheffield but it does seem poor if you are forced into the more expensive journey.

ForTheLoveOf · 4 Jan 2019

bb21 said:
That is entirely wrong. Simply being able to buy a ticket does not mean you are entitled to make a journey via any route you want, especially if you were aware there were no trains running and your ticket cannot be used, in which case you will be entitled to a full refund.

A ticket like that would, however, only be sold in conjunction with an itinerary along what the journey planner deems a permitted route. If you buy a ticket with such an itinerary, then a contract has been made, and you must be transported, come hell or high water!

The notion that a train company can simply turn around after the ticket has been bought, arrangements have been made etc. and say "oops, we didn't mean to, sorry, take backsies" - is simply inaccurate. That's just not how contract law (and certainly the NRCoT) works.

The only situation where it is even slightly ambiguous is if you buy a ticket from a TVM and it can be shown that you were aware of the lack of services along a permitted route. Surprising though it may be to some readers here, basically no members of the public are aware of what a permitted route is, nor of the total lack of alternative transport on strike days on many routes - certainly so at stations not managed by Northern (some of which will, to be fair, have notices).

sheff1 · 4 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
A ticket like that would, however, only be sold in conjunction with an itinerary along what the journey planner deems a permitted route. If you buy a ticket with such an itinerary, then a contract has been made, and you must be transported, come hell or high water!

But if no trains are advertised to run via 'route X' at the time you want to purchase a ticket, and hence no itineraries are offered that way, I can't see any way to travel other than buying the more expensive ticket for 'route Y' on which trains are advertised and itineraries are offered.

Don't know what the situation is at Huddersfield, but at Sheffield prominent notices have been displayed on TVMs telling people that because of the strike they should confirm which (if any) trains are running before they buy a ticket.

ForTheLoveOf · 4 Jan 2019

sheff1 said:
But if no trains are advertised to run via 'route X' at the time you want to purchase a ticket, and hence no itineraries are offered that way, I can't see any way to travel other than buying the more expensive ticket for 'route Y' on which trains are advertised and itineraries are offered.

Don't know what the situation is at Huddersfield, but at Sheffield prominent notices have been displayed on TVMs telling people that because of the strike they should confirm which (if any) trains are running before they buy a ticket.

Indeed - and in such a situation obviously it is the passenger's problem. But where they are not advised of the lack of trains (and it is for the operator to prove this, not the reverse), they retain a right to travel, whether that be via the usual direct route or another route where there actually are trains!

bb21 · 4 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
A ticket like that would, however, only be sold in conjunction with an itinerary along what the journey planner deems a permitted route. If you buy a ticket with such an itinerary, then a contract has been made, and you must be transported, come hell or high water!

The notion that a train company can simply turn around after the ticket has been bought, arrangements have been made etc. and say "oops, we didn't mean to, sorry, take backsies" - is simply inaccurate. That's just not how contract law (and certainly the NRCoT) works.

The only situation where it is even slightly ambiguous is if you buy a ticket from a TVM and it can be shown that you were aware of the lack of services along a permitted route. Surprising though it may be to some readers here, basically no members of the public are aware of what a permitted route is, nor of the total lack of alternative transport on strike days on many routes - certainly so at stations not managed by Northern (some of which will, to be fair, have notices).

That I do broadly agree with, however that was not what you said previously.

bb21 · 4 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Indeed - and in such a situation obviously it is the passenger's problem. But where they are not advised of the lack of trains (and it is for the operator to prove this, not the reverse), they retain a right to travel, whether that be via the usual direct route or another route where there actually are trains!

It is the customer's responsibility to establish that services are running on the route they intended to use prior to purchasing a ticket. If they blindly bought an unusable ticket at, say, a TVM, there is no obligation to carry them via any other route.

It is a completely different ball game if they were offered an itinerary with the purchase of the ticket, or even an indicative itinerary, which was subsequently amended, rendering their ticket unusable.

ForTheLoveOf · 4 Jan 2019

bb21 said:
It is the customer's responsibility to establish that services are running on the route they intended to use prior to purchasing a ticket. If they blindly bought an unusable ticket at, say, a TVM, there is no obligation to carry them via any other route.

It is a completely different ball game if they were offered an itinerary with the purchase of the ticket, or even an indicative itinerary, which was subsequently amended, rendering their ticket unusable.

The NRCoT don't imbue any such obligation and I would be interested to hear your basis of reasoning for this argument.

Fundamentally speaking, the fact that the TVM is "dumb" doesn't alter the legal situation. The TVM, which is in effect a physical manifestation of the train company, has offered to transport the passenger from A to B for price £X. If the TOC is aware that it cannot transport the passenger in line with the rules which it has seen fit to implement around the routes which may be used, then it should not be offering such tickets for sale.

It is not an insurmountable problem: one could, as LNER do on their TVMs, require the passenger to select an intended train. That would prevent the sale of tickets where there are no trains the ticket can be used on.

If a ticket that "cannot be used" is sold, that doesn't simply mean the TOC can "take backsies". Consideration has passed, and a binding contract has been made. The train company (and, due to the wording of the NRCoT, all other train companies) has a duty to transport the passenger from A to B, be that by train, by rail replacement bus, by taxi or by horse and cart. They can't simply turn around, blushing, and say they'd prefer the contract didn't exist.

Any train company's representative claiming otherwise is clearly failing to understand even the rudimentary basics of contract law. Such knowledge is essential for doing their job properly, if they are in a position to advise the passenger what is and isn't permissible on their ticket. Such members of staff might be said to be insufficiently trained, and hence unfit to be performing their role, if they don't have that knowledge.

bb21 · 4 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
The NRCoT don't imbue any such obligation and I would be interested to hear your basis of reasoning for this argument.

Fundamentally speaking, the fact that the TVM is "dumb" doesn't alter the legal situation. The TVM, which is in effect a physical manifestation of the train company, has offered to transport the passenger from A to B for price £X. If the TOC is aware that it cannot transport the passenger in line with the rules which it has seen fit to implement around the routes which may be used, then it should not be offering such tickets for sale.

It is not an insurmountable problem: one could, as LNER do on their TVMs, require the passenger to select an intended train. That would prevent the sale of tickets where there are no trains the ticket can be used on.

If a ticket that "cannot be used" is sold, that doesn't simply mean the TOC can "take backsies". Consideration has passed, and a binding contract has been made. The train company (and, due to the wording of the NRCoT, all other train companies) has a duty to transport the passenger from A to B, be that by train, by rail replacement bus, by taxi or by horse and cart. They can't simply turn around, blushing, and say they'd prefer the contract didn't exist.

Any train company's representative claiming otherwise is clearly failing to understand even the rudimentary basics of contract law. Such knowledge is essential for doing their job properly, if they are in a position to advise the passenger what is and isn't permissible on their ticket. Such members of staff might be said to be unsuitable for their role if they don't have that knowledge.

I am sorry but that is a load of nonsense. Please provide definitive evidence that your interpretation is correct. Try purchasing a ticket from a TVM on Boxing Day on a route where no service runs next year, say somewhere out of Marylebone - Aylesbury Vale Parkway will do, claim that you were unaware no service ran on that route because a nearby route (Bicester Village) had a service, demand you be conveyed via alternative modes of transport, and see how far you get. I will be very interested to see the outcome when you take Chiltern to court.

Until then, the current practice stands. You are entitled to a refund in those situations, but no right to conveyance via an alternative otherwise invalid route.

robbeech · 5 Jan 2019

Which documentation are you referring to when it suggests they must get you there?

As far as I was aware the parts of the NRCOT that talk about this talk only about completing a journey. This implies the journey has started.

28.2
Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

I don’t see an issue with the ‘where it reasonably can’ clause here as this to me would only come into force in situations where they simply cannot get you there, for example severe weather, but this to me suggests that if you haven’t started your JOURNEY (taking 14.1 into account) then you might not be eligible for this, other than a refund from the point of purchase.

It is my view that if you had previously purchased a ticket with a reservation and/or itinerary for a selection of trains to get you there and one is cancelled then they must get you to your destination. If it’s a single train so you do not start your journey then I think it’s more of a grey area. Perhaps if it’s part of a return ticket with an itinerary and/or seat for both legs then there is some ground for them to take action. However purchasing a ticket on the day is just going to end up in a debacle.
@ForTheLoveOf by all means try this out if you feel it’s necessary and you have the time, I’ll even buy your ticket for you if it’s sensibly priced but I think there has to be some common sense applied. There’s a difference between not being able to make a journey due to strike action and being genuinely stranded part way home due to strike action on an advance with connections ticket booked in good faith.

ForTheLoveOf · 5 Jan 2019

robbeech said:
Which documentation are you referring to when it suggests they must get you there?

As far as I was aware the parts of the NRCOT that talk about this talk only about completing a journey. This implies the journey has started.

I don’t see an issue with the ‘where it reasonably can’ clause here as this to me would only come into force in situations where they simply cannot get you there, for example severe weather, but this to me suggests that if you haven’t started your JOURNEY (taking 14.1 into account) then you might not be eligible for this, other than a refund from the point of purchase.

It is my view that if you had previously purchased a ticket with a reservation and/or itinerary for a selection of trains to get you there and one is cancelled then they must get you to your destination. If it’s a single train so you do not start your journey then I think it’s more of a grey area. Perhaps if it’s part of a return ticket with an itinerary and/or seat for both legs then there is some ground for them to take action. However purchasing a ticket on the day is just going to end up in a debacle.
@ForTheLoveOf by all means try this out if you feel it’s necessary and you have the time, I’ll even buy your ticket for you if it’s sensibly priced but I think there has to be some common sense applied. There’s a difference between not being able to make a journey due to strike action and being genuinely stranded part way home due to strike action on an advance with connections ticket booked in good faith.

True - I have a journey planned for soon (already have the tickets), though it is more of the latter type than the former

Tetchytyke · 5 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
They can't simply turn around, blushing, and say they'd prefer the contract didn't exist.

They can. Contracts can be frustrated by events outside the control of either party. Strike action is such an example. If a contract is frustrated it is essentially torn up and both parties are discharged from their obligations. You get your money back and that's your lot.

ForTheLoveOf · 6 Jan 2019

Arctic Troll said:
They can. Contracts can be frustrated by events outside the control of either party. Strike action is such an example. If a contract is frustrated it is essentially torn up and both parties are discharged from their obligations. You get your money back and that's your lot.

But strike action such as has been occurring in all these cases is well within the control of the company: they could avoid it by agreeing to what the unions want. The fact that that is not financially viable for them in the long run is immaterial.

scrapy · 6 Jan 2019

I've seen somebody at Manchester Oxford Rd who has been sold a ticket to from London to Trafford Park on a Sunday, (from the ticket office at Euston) only to get to Manchester and find no Sunday service exists demanding a taxi and be refused (they were offered to have their ticket accepted on the 1st train on Monday morning). The question is should it be only possible to buy a ticket where an itinerary exists? This will certainly slow down the ticket buying process.

mmh · 6 Jan 2019

scrapy said:
I've seen somebody at Manchester Oxford Rd who has been sold a ticket to from London to Trafford Park on a Sunday, (from the ticket office at Euston) only to get to Manchester and find no Sunday service exists demanding a taxi and be refused (they were offered to have their ticket accepted on the 1st train on Monday morning). The question is should it be only possible to buy a ticket where an itinerary exists? This will certainly slow down the ticket buying process.

No. I often buy a ticket from/to a station which doesn't have any service on Sundays, because I'm happy to have to start late or stop short if I'm travelling on a Sunday - the other half of my return I'll use on a day when the station does have a service.

Starmill · 6 Jan 2019

Arctic Troll said:
They can. Contracts can be frustrated by events outside the control of either party.

Indeed. Quite true.

Arctic Troll said:
Strike action is such an example.

Erm... I don't think so. For that contract to be considered 'frustrated' it would need to be close to impossible to fulfill. So, for example, catastrophic permanent flooding, or the area the customer is travelling in becoming a battlefield in a war might count as frustration, as they would make all conventional means of transport essentially impossible.

A strike is clearly not going to result in any contract becoming 'frustrated'.

Starmill · 6 Jan 2019

djh1986 said:
I've decided not to risk it and split ticket it by buying a single from Huddersfield to Leeds and then an advance from Leeds to Sheffield but it does seem poor if you are forced into the more expensive journey.

For future reference, what I would probably do in this situation is book the cheapest ticket anyway, even if this were Not Via Leeds. I would then ask the guard on the day, as a matter of customer service, if I could use the ticket via Leeds, even though routed Not Via Leeds. I would be very surprised if the guard didn't then give permission for the ticket to be used on that train! If they did say no, I'd probably wait for the next train abd try the next guard. The worst that could happen is you'd have to buy new more expensive tickets anyway, and get a refund on the old one on the grounds it was impossible to use.

Tetchytyke · 6 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
But strike action such as has been occurring in all these cases is well within the control of the company: they could avoid it by agreeing to what the unions want.

Strike action is not within the control of the company, it is within the control of the trade union.

The merits, or otherwise, of the strike action are irrelevant.

Starmill said:
Erm... I don't think so. For that contract to be considered 'frustrated' it would need to be close to impossible to fulfill.

The contract for travel from Huddersfield to Sheffield not via Leeds is impossible to fulfil if there are no staff available to run the trains.

As it happens, I agree that the OP may be OK travelling via Leeds- XC are the same company as Northern and tend to accept tickets on strike days, and I doubt you'd even see the guard on TPE- but the wibble from others about Arriva having to transport them was what I was challenging.

yorkie · 6 Jan 2019

Arctic Troll said:
...the wibble from others about Arriva having to transport them was what I was challenging.

The customer is entitled to be transported by any relevant train companies from Huddersfield to Sheffield.

It's an internal rail industry matter regarding what route an be taken or how revenue is distributed but the customer should not need to worry.

I don't think we need to worry about arguing over the minutiae.

Starmill said:
For future reference, what I would probably do in this situation is book the cheapest ticket anyway, even if this were Not Via Leeds. I would then ask the guard on the day, as a matter of customer service, if I could use the ticket via Leeds, even though routed Not Via Leeds. I would be very surprised if the guard didn't then give permission for the ticket to be used on that train! If they did say no, I'd probably wait for the next train abd try the next guard. The worst that could happen is you'd have to buy new more expensive tickets anyway, and get a refund on the old one on the grounds it was impossible to use.

Agreed

Tetchytyke · 6 Jan 2019

yorkie said:
The customer is entitled to be transported by any relevant train companies from Huddersfield to Sheffield.

...upon payment of the appropriate (higher) fare via Leeds.

As I said, I think the OP would be (will have been?) fine travelling via Leeds on the cheaper ticket. But there's no legal obligation on TPE or XC to accept the ticket.

Starmill · 6 Jan 2019

Arctic Troll said:
The contract for travel from Huddersfield to Sheffield not via Leeds is impossible to fulfil if there are no staff available to run the trains.

No it isn't. 1. Some trains were running, and the journey was possible 2. Replacement buses could be run, and so can road transport such as taxis.

Arguing that the contract has become frustrated is a misnomer. This is barking up the wrong tree though - frustration wasn't at issue with the OP. They had no contract to be frustrated.

djh1986 · 6 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
No it isn't. 1. Some trains were running, and the journey was possible .

The journey was not possible without travelling via Leeds (unless you travelled via Manchester which would have taken a long time and still used other operators services.

Starmill · 6 Jan 2019

djh1986 said:
The journey was not possible without travelling via Leeds (unless you travelled via Manchester which would have taken a long time and still used other operators services.

I was refuting a claim made regarding frustration. This wouldn't be relevant with respect to whether the contract could be considered frustrated. Also, it actually would have been possible without travelling via Leeds, although this would have been either very slow or on very few journey opportunities.

yorkie · 6 Jan 2019

The journey is still possible from origin to destination by rail, and the NRCoT states:

any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination

If alternative trains are running which would enable the customer to complete their journey, and those trains are not full, then I do not see any grounds for those companies to deny that they can "reasonably can".

In any case, if the company disagreed, the worst they can do is charge an excess fare. This would be priced at the difference between the "Not via Leeds" fare and the cheapest available fare valid via Leeds. It would be the full difference if a Single was held, or half the difference if a Return was held.

bb21 · 6 Jan 2019

yorkie said:
The journey is still possible from origin to destination by rail, and the NRCoT states:

If alternative trains are running which would enable the customer to complete their journey, and those trains are not full, then I do not see any grounds for those companies to deny that they can "reasonably can".

There is a very important condition, ie. "Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used...", which is an integral part of Condition 28.2 you quoted.

If the ticket were never valid on anything to start with, then this condition cannot be satisfied.

As we discussed today, there are really three broad types of scenarios as I see it. The first one is where the customer purchased the ticket according to an indicative itinerary, in which case I don't think there is any doubt that the contract should be honoured if train times later changed and the customer decided to continue travelling, if necessary by conveyance via an alternative route or mode. Secondly there are possibly grey areas surrounding circumstances in which services were altered due to planned changes, but that is more a practicality consideration. Finally there is no grey area in my opinion where there is no service the ticket can be used on to start with, regardless whether the journey can still be made on an alternative route which the fare is not ordinarily valid. An excess fare is chargeable should the customer in that scenario require travel via an alternative route.

From a practicality point of view, I don't think it likely at all a guard would charge the OP an excess fare for going via Leeds should he be caught travelling with a Not Via Leeds fare, even if he purchased the fare with full knowledge that the fare would not be usable against any journey opportunity on that day (as the guard would not be able to prove that).

ashworth · 27 Jan 2019

I have a similar situation.

On Monday 11th February I am planning to travel from Mansfield to Sheffield, returning on Saturday 16th February.
Using a Senior Railcard the fare is £10.95 via Worksop or £15.20 via Nottingham.
There will probably not be any Northern trains between Sheffield and Worksop on Saturday 16th February. Would it be best to just pay the higher via Nottingham fare on the day I travel out or get the cheaper via Worksop ticket and hope that EMT will allow me to travel via Nottingham on the Saturday. It should still work out cheaper if I had to pay an excess fare.

Starmill · 27 Jan 2019

ashworth said:
I have a similar situation.

On Monday 11th February I am planning to travel from Mansfield to Sheffield, returning on Saturday 16th February.
Using a Senior Railcard the fare is £10.95 via Worksop or £15.20 via Nottingham.
There will probably not be any Northern trains between Sheffield and Worksop on Saturday 16th February. Would it be best to just pay the higher via Nottingham fare on the day I travel out or get the cheaper via Worksop ticket and hope that EMT will allow me to travel via Nottingham on the Saturday. It should still work out cheaper if I had to pay an excess fare.

Some services between Worksop and Sheffield are shown in the journey planner at northernrailway.co.uk on 16 February. A reasonable customer would assume these will run on the strike day. Therefore my suggestion is you go to their website now to buy your desired ticket. In the event that they're cancelled you can ask for what to do. You may be directed to travel via Nottingham. If this happens, you will likely be entitled to claim delay repay. If you're charged an excess, you can claim that back from Northern too.

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