Halton Curve upgrade is on

frodshamfella · 11 Jun 2018

geoffk said:
I suppose that this and the Todmorden Curve, which I watched being built, are relatively cheap, in railway terms, and can achieve quite a lot of extra connectivity. Now how about the Burscough Curves (or one of them)?

Indeed, please can that start now too.

RailUK Forums

PHILIPE · 2 Dec 2018

At a guess route learning for Halton Curve start:-

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea.../0000-2359?stp=WVSC&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW

2 round trips Chester to Liverpool Lime St via the Curve. 175004 doing the honours

LNW-GW Joint · 2 Dec 2018

34 minutes is the fastest time there for Chester-Liverpool, seemingly non-stop and on the fast.
That's probably about the best time achievable on the route.
Adding in stops, pathing allowances and maybe looping via the slow through Parkway and it will be nearer 45 minutes for the passenger service when it starts.
At least it keeps the curve rails shiny.
I should think route-learning will have to be repeated in the new year after Speke/Allerton resignalling.

theshillito · 2 Dec 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
Adding in stops, pathing allowances and maybe looping via the slow through Parkway

I wonder what stopping pattern they'll have. Will they bother stopping at Runcorn when there's already services at Runcorn East?

krus_aragon · 2 Dec 2018

theshillito said:
I wonder what stopping pattern they'll have. Will they bother stopping at Runcorn when there's already services at Runcorn East?

The Tender documents (which listed desirable service improvements) stated that station calls at Runcorn and South Parkway were expected on the (eventual) Liverpool-North Wales service, in order for it to qualify for the "bonus" when evaluating bids. It's buried in this document if you want a read.

a_c_skinner · 2 Dec 2018

theshillito said:
Will they bother stopping at Runcorn when there's already services at Runcorn East?

Runcorn East is a very different kettle of fish, awkward to get to, not useful for lots of passengers in the north of Runcorn and across the river. Better to skip Runcorn East if you need to make time.

driver_m · 2 Dec 2018

theshillito said:
I wonder what stopping pattern they'll have. Will they bother stopping at Runcorn when there's already services at Runcorn East?

Just to echo the other poster. Runcorn is a far more desirable stop. Easier to get to from North of the Mersey.

185 · 2 Dec 2018

Aha. This explains the stray Chester TfW staff hitching lifts to Runcorn last week with route learning packs up to Liverpool LS.

Guess the majority will learn the short "curve" bit from a DVD - not many trains going over that just yet.

Eccles1983 · 2 Dec 2018

theshillito said:
I wonder what stopping pattern they'll have. Will they bother stopping at Runcorn when there's already services at Runcorn East?

Eh?

Unless they have stuck a new curve in or are planning a bizzare reversal then Runcorn and Runcorn east shall never be done by one train.

It will stop at Runcorn, as this allows for transfer to the west coast services.

158756 · 2 Dec 2018

a_c_skinner said:
Runcorn East is a very different kettle of fish, awkward to get to, not useful for lots of passengers in the north of Runcorn and across the river. Better to skip Runcorn East if you need to make time.

Is Runcorn East not used more for Warrington and Manchester than Wales? In that case the Halton Curve doesn't provide a replacement. TfW also provide the only service at Runcorn East, so you can't withdraw it anyway.

Bevan Price · 2 Dec 2018

158756 said:
Is Runcorn East not used more for Warrington and Manchester than Wales? In that case the Halton Curve doesn't provide a replacement. TfW also provide the only service at Runcorn East, so you can't withdraw it anyway.

Runorn East is north of Frodsham Jn - you cannot serve it and Runcorn with the same service.

theshillito · 2 Dec 2018

Yeah if you're going to Liverpool you go through Runcorn and if you're heading to Warrington and/or Manchester you go through Runcorn East. Not really a case of skipping one or the other, they're different routes.

And now you mention it, it did take ages to get between stations when I walked it last year. I guess they have different markets so probably worth serving both.

I guess remaining thoughts for me are:
1) will tickets from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street/Stations be tweaked in some way. I notice there's already a more expensive "via Warrington" fare than using the "via Birkenhead" Merseyrail tickets, but I wonder if they'll introduce a third "via Runcorn" ticket or merge into an any permitted ticket

2) I wonder if there will be any local traffic between Runcorn East and Runcorn changing at Frodsham, rather than taking the bus. Depends on timetables I guess, but that could potentially be something interesting. They'd have to create a ticket for it though, as no fares exist for that journey according to brfares!!

Gareth · 2 Dec 2018

Both stations are slated to get additional services; nothing will be instead of anything. Yes, Runcorn East provides services for Warrington & Manchester, whilst Runcorn (Hbf) has Liverpool-London/Birmingham services. Both will soon have Chester/North Wales services but the two stations are actually quite some distance apart; so it's more complimentary than duplication.

158756 · 2 Dec 2018

Bevan Price said:
Runorn East is north of Frodsham Jn - you cannot serve it and Runcorn with the same service.

Yes, hence you cannot skip Runcorn East to save time of drop it to move calls to Runcorn.

Llandudno · 2 Dec 2018

Will Merseytravel season ticket and Saveaway ticket boundaries be extended to cover the Halton Curve. Merseytravel part funded the reopening, and Merseytravel ticket availability already covers Chester and Ellesmere Port via Hooton?

Gareth · 3 Dec 2018

An often asked question and we still don't know for sure. One would hope something could be arranged.

krus_aragon · 3 Dec 2018

158756 said:
Is Runcorn East not used more for Warrington and Manchester than Wales? In that case the Halton Curve doesn't provide a replacement. TfW also provide the only service at Runcorn East, so you can't withdraw it anyway.

I think the original question was intended for the other direction: is it worth stopping the Liverpool-Chester service at Runcorn given that Runcorn East already has a service to Chester & North Wales. The answer is yes, as they serve different areas, despite the similar name.

childwallblues · 3 Dec 2018

The TfW Liverpool to Chester service would be ideal for the 769 FLEX - 13 miles of wires and 12.5 miles diesel.
Maybe the service should take the slow line between Ditton Junction and Wavertree Junction and also serve West Allerton and Mossley Hill.
As for fares TfW should set a fare dearer than the Merseyrail but cheaper than the VIA WARRINGTON route.
The service could become popular with commuters from the Frodsham/Helsby areas who currently use to pay tolls on the bridge

krus_aragon · 3 Dec 2018

childwallblues said:
The TfW Liverpool to Chester service would be ideal for the 769 FLEX - 13 miles of wires and 12.5 miles diesel.

ideal in terms of motive power, but maybe not in terms of capacity. Those four carriage units are badly needed down in the valleys, and two carriages (a 15x) would likely be sufficient while it only runs to Chester.*

Once the new rolling stock arrives, the service will be splitting at Chester to serve Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff, so 769s still wouldn't suit the service.

*I'll put good money that a 175 is used on the inaugural service, at least.

a_c_skinner · 3 Dec 2018

158756 said:
hence you cannot skip Runcorn East to save time of drop it to move calls to Runcorn.

Apologies, I too made that error despite living there for a long time. Runcorn East wass a local station not a place to which people tend to travel to continue their journey by train, at least not in our time in the area.

LNW-GW Joint · 3 Dec 2018

a_c_skinner said:
Apologies, I too made that error despite living there for a long time. Runcorn East wass a local station not a place to which people tend to travel to continue their journey by train, at least not in our time in the area.

Runcorn East is really a reopened Norton station, right at the SE end of Runcorn.
It gets more passengers than Frodsham and twice as many as Helsby.

craigybagel · 3 Dec 2018

krus_aragon said:
ideal in terms of motive power, but maybe not in terms of capacity. Those four carriage units are badly needed down in the valleys, and two carriages (a 15x) would likely be sufficient while it only runs to Chester.*

Once the new rolling stock arrives, the service will be splitting at Chester to serve Llandudno and Shrewsbury/Cardiff, so 769s still wouldn't suit the service.

*I'll put good money that a 175 is used on the inaugural service, at least.

Devil's advocate here - since I don't believe for one second that 769s will be used for reasons I've mentioned on other threads - but when the new rolling stock arrives the 769s are leaving anyway, whatever route they go on.

LNW-GW Joint said:
Runcorn East is really a reopened Norton station, right at the SE end of Runcorn.
It gets more passengers than Frodsham and twice as many as Helsby.

And that's just including the ones that actually buy tickets.....

Gareth Marston · 3 Dec 2018

Yes it will be 150's and the only scheduled 150's in N Wales left ( twice a day to Wrexham).

Still have to rotate units up from Canton.

frodshamfella · 3 Dec 2018

There is also a provision on the curve for a possible future station in the Beechwood area of Runcorn so I understand from NCRUG.

childwallblues · 6 Dec 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
Runcorn East is really a reopened Norton station, right at the SE end of Runcorn.
It gets more passengers than Frodsham and twice as many as Helsby.

I understand that it is not on the same site as the old Norton station.

LNW-GW Joint · 6 Dec 2018

childwallblues said:
I understand that it is not on the same site as the old Norton station.

Runcorn East was built a short distance to the west of the old Norton platforms, on the other side of the original signal box site.
The last couple of photos here show the new station and the old station house. http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/n/norton/index.shtml

The signal box is still called "Norton".
There used to be another station, Halton, to the west of the Norton tunnel bore, very close to where the M56 goes over the line.

Welshman · 6 Dec 2018

Scroll down to see a photo, courtesy of Ray Barber, of the 175[0] route-learning train on the curve, in this week's edition of Charlie Hulme's excellent bulletin:-

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

mpb56125 · 6 Jan 2019

Another driver training run today over the Halton Curve with 175005. Once they got Frodsham Junction box opened again. This time it only went to Widnes (Alstom) Depot at Ditton.
https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2019/January-2019/i-9HBkrng/A
https://mark5812.smugmug.com/Trains-2019/January-2019/i-KTkWtHD/A

May timetable also uploaded at http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...2/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=AW

Mark
https://mark5812.smugmug.com

DJH1971 · 6 Jan 2019

Sorry if already mentioned, but any news of when services will actually start running?

pemma · 6 Jan 2019

DJH1971 said:
Sorry if already mentioned, but any news of when services will actually start running?

See post above yours. Times have been included in the provisional May 2019 timetable.

Halton Curve upgrade is on

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