P3 is reversible but from Portsmouth & Southsea is ECS only. P2 is fully reversible. P1 is London bound only.
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GWR Class 165/166 Turbo Diagrams
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P3 is necessarily just ECS in the up direction, I’ve seen service trains come up from PMS into Fratton and continue on their journey. Granted it was during very heavy disruption (talking a code black type event) but it does happen.
I agree. I’ve been on a 6 car 158 twice. The first time, the driver door was closed on the rear hybrid unit meaning that one car was out of use.
The second time, the Brighton train joined with the Portsmouth train for some reason, and had passengers in all 6 coaches. Not sure how they got around releasing doors at Warminster, Trowbridge and Bradford on Avon, maybe unit deselect was used? (Not sure if that’s the correct term)
GWR units don’t have manual SDO, which I’ve always thought was odd when SWT/SWR do and it increases operational flexibility tenfold.
Matt Taylor
Established Member
Five car Turbo between Fratton and Southsea yesterday on 1F20.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/40172...YV-dJeXQA-dJeXPE-29SUjUg-MXcrqU-byVKcD-ybSDmi
https://www.flickr.com/photos/40172...YV-dJeXQA-dJeXPE-29SUjUg-MXcrqU-byVKcD-ybSDmi
One end of the MS (middle) car on the 166s
Kite159
Veteran Member
You mean that small area of "3-1+2" seating arranged in bays which used to have small tables before they got removed?
The most popular seats will be the proper 2+2 seating in the former 1st class areas.
Right Away
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166202 and 165132 allocated 1F05/1F16/1F25/1F34.
166204 allocated 1F09/1F20/1F29/2M95.
2M95 runs back via Botley, Eastleigh (reverse) and Southampton Airport Parkway so this should be the first 16x in passenger service over this route if the allocations do not change.
166204 allocated 1F09/1F20/1F29/2M95.
2M95 runs back via Botley, Eastleigh (reverse) and Southampton Airport Parkway so this should be the first 16x in passenger service over this route if the allocations do not change.
Thanks for this information, now to think of a reason to nip to Southampton that will fly with her indoors!
Johncleesefan
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The issue with this brief is that it mentions turbos banned on the down main fratton towards ports s.s.
However to get to south sea you have to cross to the down main from the fratton line at Blackfriars junc.
So, we stop at blackfriars as can’t use the dn main. Can’t terminate in low level either. Can’t change ends in coupled together turbos like they want and can’t get out coz of the juice rail. Sitting duck failure.
Shambles springs to mind
However to get to south sea you have to cross to the down main from the fratton line at Blackfriars junc.
So, we stop at blackfriars as can’t use the dn main. Can’t terminate in low level either. Can’t change ends in coupled together turbos like they want and can’t get out coz of the juice rail. Sitting duck failure.
Shambles springs to mind
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Shortage of 165s in the West (GWR short of the planned cascade number) means 1F09 running 3 Cars only
Mitchell Hurd
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I've a feeling some passengers aren't that keen on the Turbos on Portsmouth runs as no-ones commented apart from me (me congratulating them basically - for the right reasons).
Thing is, they are a massive improvement over the 158's - largely because a 5-car Turbo, compared to just around 200-205 seats in a 3-car 158, provides something like 430-440 seats. The 3+2 seating is handy for families / groups of people - for example, schools and parties etc! Also there'll be a coach with seats directly opposite a luggage / bike rack.
Plus the reliability of the Turbos remains fantastic!
Thing is, they are a massive improvement over the 158's - largely because a 5-car Turbo, compared to just around 200-205 seats in a 3-car 158, provides something like 430-440 seats. The 3+2 seating is handy for families / groups of people - for example, schools and parties etc! Also there'll be a coach with seats directly opposite a luggage / bike rack.
Plus the reliability of the Turbos remains fantastic!
Mitchell Hurd
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The first sentence I meant to add - no one apart from me has tweeted GWR as to whether they're happy with the Turbos on Portsmouth.
Sorry about that.
Sorry about that.
Great so we’ve decided that Portsmouth to Cardiff is for pure leisure use only. I commute the line from Fratton to Bath/Bristol to visit clients. I want a table so I can do work on my laptop. I can’t afford to lose 5 hrs travelling. Students who use these services want tables so they can do coursework.
Yet again we’ve gone capacity over everything. I’m big and find the narrow seats too small. I take up about 1.5 seats. That won’t make it comfortable for the other two people sat next to me.
If I can’t work on a laptop then I will drive as at least then I will be able to make phone calls in private as an alternative. And my personal space won’t be restricted because of narrow seating.
I could go via Reading but that involves a change, self defeating when you have s direct service. It’s also 3 times the cost and over an hour longer!
In short, well done GWR for forcing a great rail supporter into their car.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
You mean "well done DFT". GWR didn't want them
Completely agree with what you’re saying. Hopefully the turbo stock will be modified as was the original plan, I won’t hold my breath though. Very poor decision when they could have put Turbos further west and made the Portsmouth line 5 car 158s with a bit of reforming.
swt_passenger
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All the comments about suitability or otherwise in these forums were probably made about 2 years ago. People always like to be well ahead of the game. There were more negative than positive comments.
swt_passenger
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Isn’t the down main restriction only because of P3 through Fratton? The up/down Fratton is the ‘normal’ route to the down main approaching Ports & Southsea (the way it’s drawn in the sectional appendix anyway).
Are you trying to say Turbos cannot get beyond Blackfriars Junction?
Mitchell Hurd
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Sorry I've caused a sort of dispute here - I don't want that.
I'm not quite sure how it was worded to me by GWR but I was told by them it wasn't to do with the DfT regarding refurbishment of the Turbos.
Unfortunately it looks like the only refurbished Turbo (GWR interior) for now will be 166205 - they don't want to take another Turbo out of service for a few weeks given the problems with short formations, which in turn doesn't make customers happy.
On the 18/02/19 I'm on one of my train trips out: Oxford - Birmingham New Street - Bristol Temple Meads - Didcot Parkway (I'll have Advance Singles, a First Class one for the 11:17 out of New Street), so I'll hopefully get to hear passengers reaction to a 5-car Turbo on a Portsmouth run at Bristol Temple Meads!
I'm not quite sure how it was worded to me by GWR but I was told by them it wasn't to do with the DfT regarding refurbishment of the Turbos.
Unfortunately it looks like the only refurbished Turbo (GWR interior) for now will be 166205 - they don't want to take another Turbo out of service for a few weeks given the problems with short formations, which in turn doesn't make customers happy.
On the 18/02/19 I'm on one of my train trips out: Oxford - Birmingham New Street - Bristol Temple Meads - Didcot Parkway (I'll have Advance Singles, a First Class one for the 11:17 out of New Street), so I'll hopefully get to hear passengers reaction to a 5-car Turbo on a Portsmouth run at Bristol Temple Meads!
No. I mean GWR. DfT decreed that there would be no new regional stock and stopped the procurement process. Where the stock was then used was up to GWR. They focused on Devon and Cornwall even if that wasn't the most appropriate allocation.
GWR could have used the Turbos in Devon and Cornwall in a predominantly leisure market full of short trips where there were high speed services for longer distance travellers. That would have left the 158s on the Portsmouth route in a 5 or 6 car formation.
Alternatively, GWR could have placed the short HSTs on the Portsmouth route. Before anyone says anything about them being out of gauge, let me remind you that the Turbos were too. From what has been said on here before, most of the problems (between St Denys and Fareham) were identical for both the Turbos and the HSTs.
The sooner the route is cut back to Portsmouth to Bristol and handed to the SWR franchise the better. Proper interworking with Salisbury and Southampton services could then occur. This has never been a route well treated under GWR.
cactustwirly
Established Member
The problem is that there aren't enough 158s for 5 or 6 car formations.
Same with the HSTs, I don't think there's enough SSL coaches.
Completely agree with everything you say
In that case you run 5 car 158/150 combos
There are 13 3 car 158s (lets assume 12 for now) plus 2 2 car 158s. That's 40 driving cabs or 8 sets of 5 for Portsmouth - Cardiff with a 3 car spare for maintenance. Brighton is an issue but this could be covered by the daily SWR hire.
Ultimately there is due to be 11 HST sets. That would have worked too. I seem to recall reading that all the retained HST sets would be SSL.
Its a political game of cat and mouse. Downgrade the passenger experience and passengers make noise and DfT responds. Its worked on the Pompey Direct!
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
It would appear that I was under a misapprehension regarding the responsibility of the DFT who are usually behind strange decisions. Where they have let us down is that GWR asked to change from 2+3 to 2+2 seating which was declined, although the last I heard was that GWR were still pushing. The DFT are more obsessed with the number of seats on a train than passenger comfort.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Then you would enter a speed differential situation with 75mph units over a 90mph route. There are some, or portions of a journey, timed at 75 mph where a 150 is attached and, in actual practice, they don't lose time overall.
This is GWR saying "we don't need full 3+2 capacity seating where we have allocated them, please pay to change the configuration". GWR wont change the configuration out of their own pocket but know its not popular. GWR wouldn't still be pushing if they were happy!
Clarence Yard
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Let me repeat the points I made some time back.
There are not enough GWR 158 to go 5 car on the Pompeys. If more were available, that would have been the first option. But there aren't and no-one was willing to give any cl.158 to GWR either. So a different traction choice had to be made.
The DfT were (and are) totally fixated on seat numbers at Bristol. So that is why the 2+2 conversion hasn't happened, yet. Too many Bristol peak seats lost for their liking. The route serves two major markets, the Bristol "commuter" flows as well as the more longer distance Pompey-Cardiff type punter. The DfT made their choice, effectively favouring the needs of one rather than the other. It is something that will be revisited in the DA3 discussions.
The Turbo refurbishment saga is a very sore point with GWR. The DfT didn't think it offered value for money in DA2 and only now, with the units in a not too great a state - to put it mildly, are they willing to consider a proper refurbishment plan for DA3. To those who have seen the Turbos since new, the last few years of rapidly ageing interiors have been rather painful to watch.
The route is not an easy one to time. Short HST sets aren't really practical for the point to points, even if you could get them cleared (and SSL bogies are the least of your problems in that) and 150/158 combos restrict you to 75mph where you really want something that does 90mph, especially after the revised IET timetable comes in.
There are not enough GWR 158 to go 5 car on the Pompeys. If more were available, that would have been the first option. But there aren't and no-one was willing to give any cl.158 to GWR either. So a different traction choice had to be made.
The DfT were (and are) totally fixated on seat numbers at Bristol. So that is why the 2+2 conversion hasn't happened, yet. Too many Bristol peak seats lost for their liking. The route serves two major markets, the Bristol "commuter" flows as well as the more longer distance Pompey-Cardiff type punter. The DfT made their choice, effectively favouring the needs of one rather than the other. It is something that will be revisited in the DA3 discussions.
The Turbo refurbishment saga is a very sore point with GWR. The DfT didn't think it offered value for money in DA2 and only now, with the units in a not too great a state - to put it mildly, are they willing to consider a proper refurbishment plan for DA3. To those who have seen the Turbos since new, the last few years of rapidly ageing interiors have been rather painful to watch.
The route is not an easy one to time. Short HST sets aren't really practical for the point to points, even if you could get them cleared (and SSL bogies are the least of your problems in that) and 150/158 combos restrict you to 75mph where you really want something that does 90mph, especially after the revised IET timetable comes in.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Well the 158s are exclusively used on Pompey - Cardiff train, and clearly there isn't enough 158s currently for 5 car sets
Johncleesefan
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That is how it comes across as it states turbos are banned on the down main from fratton east to south sea. So if the low level is banned and you also need to use the down main to terminate in the up main platform it mains your stuck at Blackfriars. I know a couple of pedantic drivers at my depot will be terminating at fratton until this is rectified. I will certainly be questioning it at fratton if only to mention how poorly constructed this brief has been considering the amount of time they have known about turbos coming. Again, shambles!!Isn’t the down main restriction only because of P3 through Fratton? The up/down Fratton is the ‘normal’ route to the down main approaching Ports & Southsea (the way it’s drawn in the sectional appendix anyway).
Are you trying to say Turbos cannot get beyond Blackfriars Junction?