“Scotlands best ever railway”

Mingulay · 5 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
I for one, don't want business people running the country.

The majority of business people I know would not last a day in social work where I used to be employed.

I'm no fan of business people at the top end either. But if our people politicians are just out uni and go into politics what do they know. They rely on a civil service that are naive and readily hoodwinked by the private sector. We need private sector savvy on the public side. I would pay politicians and civil servants far more if they had a track record of achievement or skill. I'm not advocating privitisation just a business savvy public sector. Unions need to play their part too. At he end of the day we must shrink the public sector in Scotland or we will never reverse our budget deficit.

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Highland37 · 5 Jan 2019

Major off topic but you are talking nonsense. Separate thread required.

At least Scotrail admit the problems will continue for some time.

Southsider · 5 Jan 2019

Mingulay said:
There does not seem to be very much if anything the Scottish government are in charge of that is a glowing success now . And ditto the Westminster government.

We are poorly served by our elected representatives. Professional politicians. Zero business skill !

I sense Abellio will throw in the towel. They have failed at every level. Stations and trains are dirty. Over crowding has Not gone away. Trains no faster or slower. New timetable mixed at best. No goodwill from staff or customers or politicians. Games up. I would rule them out of future franchise bids if the system will continue. It's a busted model sooner it's scrapped the better.

You missed the most important factor - losing money.

Highland37 · 5 Jan 2019

The Scottish Government can't run a deficit or surplus under devolution.

Mingulay · 5 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
The Scottish Government can't run a deficit or surplus under devolution.

Scotland spent 13.5 billion more than it raised in tax last financial year. 4 times the uk defecit as GPD

That precludes EU membership. On EU rules

Highland37 · 5 Jan 2019

Mingulay said:
Scotland spent 13.5 billion more than it raised in tax last financial year. 4 times the uk defecit as GPD

That precludes EU membership. On EU rules

No.

The amount of public expenditure in Scotland has been set by the UK government since 1707.

Who spends that amount is split between the UK government and Scottish government but the amount is set by the UK government.

If a Scottish government wanted to raise or reduce expenditure, it couldn't. It only decides where the block grant is spent. Not how much.

The deficit including borrowing and taxation is also the responsibility of the UK government..

But taking your point, one has to ask why the brits in Scotland can't pay their own way.

Goodnight

yorkie · 6 Jan 2019

Can we keep posts reasonably on topic please. Thank you.

Northhighland · 6 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
No.

The amount of public expenditure in Scotland has been set by the UK government since 1707.

Who spends that amount is split between the UK government and Scottish government but the amount is set by the UK government.

If a Scottish government wanted to raise or reduce expenditure, it couldn't. It only decides where the block grant is spent. Not how much.

The deficit including borrowing and taxation is also the responsibility of the UK government..

But taking your point, one has to ask why the brits in Scotland can't pay their own way.

Goodnight

The Scottish government has tax raising powers and as one of the taxpayers paying the higher rate of income tax they are using the powers to differentiate systems between Scotland and England. Therefore the Scottish government has the ability to raise or lower expenditure in Scotland.

I suspect you know that and are deliberately misrepresenting the situation. If they wanted to genuinely build Scotlands best railway and electrify the inter7city routes they have the power to raise taxation to pay for this.

Highland37 · 6 Jan 2019

Yes but what you fail to admit is that any increase in Scottish income tax revenue is offset by a cut in the block grant.

See post above re staying on topic.

So no, they don't have the power to increase revenue or expenditure to electrify or anything else. Income tax is one small part of taxation and the total expenditure is set by the UK government.

That is devolution.

applepie2100 · 6 Jan 2019

The fantasy of "Scotlands Best Ever Railway" is wonderful one to have but it is just that and nothing more.

The various reasons for stock/staff/other shortages have been done to death and while it is good to see Alex Hynes finally putting out a statement that acknowledges the third party involvement, his statement is really nothing more than several paragraphs of words which say nothing. To put out a statement which could be shortened into "We're sorry we're rubbish, we don't know when it will be fixed and we don't know how to fix it" is pretty poor. For their apology to mean anything at all it needs to be accompanied by something tangible such as a 50% discount on fares for a month and a postponement of any fares increases which have been applied. That would be an acknowledgement that they're only providing half the service and not just some mealy mouthed half baked statement.

They also need to have a serious word in the ear of their PR team. They need to start being much more honest with their passengers, stop ignoring the difficult comments and stop putting out advertisements and postings which only become cannon fodder because they pretend that everything is rosy when in fact it's far from that.

We're a long, long way from Scotlands Best Ever Railway and a few months is not going to change that.

Highland37 · 6 Jan 2019

I agree on the PR team. They are brexiteasque laughing stock who no one takes seriously. Shame as recovering from that position will take a long time.

I do not think it is realistic to expect such a huge reduction in fares. Maybe not charge the increase for a period but half price is not realistic .

Highland37 · 6 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
Yes but what you fail to admit is that any increase in Scottish income tax revenue is offset by a cut in the block grant.

See post above re staying on topic.

So no, they don't have the power to increase revenue or expenditure to electrify or anything else. Income tax is one small part of taxation and the total expenditure is set by the UK government.

That is devolution.

I worded the above post poorly. What I meant was the any increase in income tax revenue, through the limited income tax varying powers, will only go so far, not far at all, to offset the cuts to the block grant.

But if I am wrong, could someone (Northhighland?) explain where the extra £250 million might come from using the income tax varying powers available? I am making a guesstimate at costs of the HML electrification.

GaryMcEwan · 6 Jan 2019

If this was any normal company and if members of staff were performing this badly, they would be let go.

I know for a fact if I was not performing at my job, I'd get my P45. What makes staff at Scotrail any different. The buck stops with Alex Hynes and if he can't get things improved, and done quickly then maybe it's time he should move on.

Highland37 · 6 Jan 2019

What can he do though?

Wabtec have failed, Hitachi were late and infrastucture is not exactly performing to the best standard. Also, every infrastructure enhancement comes in at such high costs that politicians baulk at approving them. Who in their right mind would agree to electrifying to Inverness when the railway has such a poor record on delivery on time and in budget?

GaryMcEwan · 6 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
What can he do though?

Wabtec have failed, Hitachi were late and infrastucture is not exactly performing to the best standard. Also, every infrastructure enhancement comes in at such high costs that politicians baulk at approving them. Who in their right mind would agree to electrifying to Inverness when the railway has such a poor record on delivery on time and in budget?

Well you start naming and shaming people along with the companies at fault. It shouldn't have taken Scotrail this long to come out and start blaming other companies for the woeful service that passengers have been facing.

They'd be quick to move if passengers started to boycott Scotrail en masse.

Highland37 · 6 Jan 2019

Yes i agree. I for one was surprised to see him naming the culprits for some of the issues. Sack the PR team though at Scotrail.

GaryMcEwan · 6 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
Yes i agree. I for one was surprised to see him naming the culprits for some of the issues. Sack the PR team though at Scotrail.

I would imagine his hands are tied though as it's illegal for a company to bad mouth another. Although I would imagine it would be hard for the other companies to defend their position.

route:oxford · 6 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
Who in their right mind would agree to electrifying to Inverness when the railway has such a poor record on delivery on time and in budget?

Someone who knew how much electricity in Scotland is produced by renewables?

Electrifiying to Inverness will happen. It will be classic salami electrification. Dunblane is done, then it will be Perth, then it will be Dundee and eventually Inverurie.

Then someone will look at a map, with a budget for around 100 miles of electrification, and make the next decision. I suspect that decision will be to electrifiy the (relatively) straightforward 85 miles between Inverurie & Inverness rather than the more complex 110 miles between Perth and Inverness.

route:oxford · 6 Jan 2019

GaryMcEwan said:
I would imagine his hands are tied though as it's illegal for a company to bad mouth another. Although I would imagine it would be hard for the other companies to defend their position.

Can you provide details of the legislation in Scotland that prevents a company providing an accurate report about another?

route:oxford · 6 Jan 2019

Now this may be a rather silly question...

But with all the stock shortages and training shortages...

Why isn't Scotrail subcontracting some of the diagrams?

DRS have plenty of spare stock now that the Northern diagrams are finished.
Scotrail have loads of heritage HSTs that could be sub-leased to LNER or Cross-country if their staff are prepared to do a bit of overtime.

Maybe even speak to the SRPS and get their 27s top and tailing 5 Mk1s or Mk2s shuttling up and down the Border's line.

jagardner1984 · 6 Jan 2019

I do have a certain sympathy with Scotrail. Weirdly, if they expressed the slogan "best ever" as an aspiration - I think that would carry more weight. Presenting it as fact in the current climate is clearly ridiculous.

But given chronic lack of rolling stock, issues with recruitment, issues with overtime bans, successive late running infrastructure and a cycle of training on some of the busiest sections of the network, some issues were totally inevitable. Perhaps in a way the issues were at a higher level in the rolling stock plan relying on such a big move from Scotrail so immediately.

As much as I think their PR operation has been appalling, I must say if I were Alex Hynes I would be tempted to turn round and say, "What do you suggest ?" Are there another 25 fully PRM compliant refurbished HST sets ready to go anywhere in the land ? Is there another supplier with capacity to turn them round for Scotrail in no time ? Did the contract with Wabtec allow an easy exit upon failure to deliver ? If Scotrail had hired another 20% of staff to account for training and the overtime ban, and details of extra staff waiting around had leaked, would they not have been accused of spectacular wastage (particularly in the context of fares increases, which presumably would have to be higher) ?

As a regular Scotrail user, I do get the frustrations, I tear my hair out when major termini grind to a halt, when the journey checker is littered with cancellations due to lack of staff, but I am cautious about those offering easy solutions. Often, there just aren't any. Personally I think if the franchise were currently in the hands of First, Stagecoach, Govia, National Express or Arriva, many, if not all, of these issues would be exactly the same.

Highland37 · 6 Jan 2019

I

route:oxford said:
Someone who knew how much electricity in Scotland is produced by renewables?

Electrifiying to Inverness will happen. It will be classic salami electrification. Dunblane is done, then it will be Perth, then it will be Dundee and eventually Inverurie.

Then someone will look at a map, with a budget for around 100 miles of electrification, and make the next decision. I suspect that decision will be to electrifiy the (relatively) straightforward 85 miles between Inverurie & Inverness rather than the more complex 110 miles between Perth and Inverness.

I hope you are correct. It is really needed and would save money in the long term.

Ginaro · 6 Jan 2019

route:oxford said:
Now this may be a rather silly question...

But with all the stock shortages and training shortages...

Why isn't Scotrail subcontracting some of the diagrams?

DRS have plenty of spare stock now that the Northern diagrams are finished.
Scotrail have loads of heritage HSTs that could be sub-leased to LNER or Cross-country if their staff are prepared to do a bit of overtime.

Maybe even speak to the SRPS and get their 27s top and tailing 5 Mk1s or Mk2s shuttling up and down the Border's line.

Yes, with a lot of the cancellations being Fife Circle it would be good if they brought out the Class 68 + Mk2 combo during the off-peak times as well. Though I'm not sure how it would work turning it around at Waverley, or if it could work in push mode?

cf111 · 6 Jan 2019

jagardner1984 said:
As a regular Scotrail user, I do get the frustrations, I tear my hair out when major termini grind to a halt, when the journey checker is littered with cancellations due to lack of staff, but I am cautious about those offering easy solutions. Often, there just aren't any. Personally I think if the franchise were currently in the hands of First, Stagecoach, Govia, National Express or Arriva, many, if not all, of these issues would be exactly the same.

The HSTs are a major issue - it is a novel idea and I think one that may have tipped the franchise award in Abellio's favour as I don't think any other competitor was offering them as an option.

I don't doubt that the passenger experience will be improved on the InterCity lines in Scotland once they are in squadron service but it appears that the work that would be required on the 40 year-old Mk3 coaching stock was looked at in a more optimistic light than reality would allow. With that in mind I don't know if the other potential franchisees would have had the same issues - of course they could have had different, possibly worse ones!

mde · 6 Jan 2019

route:oxford said:
Why isn't Scotrail subcontracting some of the diagrams?

DRS have plenty of spare stock now that the Northern diagrams are finished.

DRS don't have plenty of spare stock - the wibble elsewhere is that some of the coaching stock off the coast was being transferred for Fife Circle duties. However, the lease with Northern was only due to expire today, and, there is a special service booked for this coming Friday as well.

You'd also need to account for the fact that DRS may not have enough drivers to sign a passenger service on other ScotRail lines, and, that, conversely, ScotRail may not have enough guards who could sign the stock so there'd be a training requirement that still needed too be met.

route:oxford said:
Scotrail have loads of heritage HSTs that could be sub-leased to LNER or Cross-country if their staff are prepared to do a bit of overtime.

Do LNER and XC have enough staff who could be made available to work? Presumably they'd need to be paired up with ScotRail staff for revenue purposes (perhaps operating akin to a ticket examiner).

route:oxford said:
Maybe even speak to the SRPS and get their 27s top and tailing 5 Mk1s or Mk2s shuttling up and down the Border's line.

Isn't the SRPS Mainline stock completely inaccessible (e.g. no disability mods at all, unlike the revenue service at B&K)? The unions would have a field day.

route:oxford · 6 Jan 2019

mde said:
DRS don't have plenty of spare stock - the wibble elsewhere is that some of the coaching stock off the coast was being transferred for Fife Circle duties. However, the lease with Northern was only due to expire today, and, there is a special service booked for this coming Friday as well.

So the contract to supply two coach sets has now expired. There is one "farewell tour" planned for next Friday. Why does that stop them coaching stock being hired in for the remaining 358 days this year?

mde said:
You'd also need to account for the fact that DRS may not have enough drivers to sign a passenger service on other ScotRail lines, and, that, conversely, ScotRail may not have enough guards who could sign the stock so there'd be a training requirement that still needed too be met.

Then hire in some more from GB Freightliner - they do the Sleepers so should have a reasonable pool of staff to work on routes that the sleeper uses. Offer cash bonuses and fly in guards from other parts of the UK on their days off who know how to work slam door stock. It's not that hard.

mde said:
Do LNER and XC have enough staff who could be made available to work? Presumably they'd need to be paired up with ScotRail staff for revenue purposes (perhaps operating akin to a ticket examiner).

There's only one way to find out. Ask them how much they want to be paid to do the job! Goodness knows why they'd need a member of Scotrail staff on board when they are more than capable of checking the tickets by themselves on the regular XC & LNER routes North of Edinburgh

mde said:
Isn't the SRPS Mainline stock completely inaccessible (e.g. no disability mods at all, unlike the revenue service at B&K)?

Only the SRPS will know. Ask them.

mde said:
The unions would have a field day.

The Unions *should* be having a field day - insisting that innovative options are used to improve the current services

Their lack of engagement with the travelling public is just as bad as Scotrail's lack of engagement and is unhelpful for their cause.

Highland37 · 7 Jan 2019

Check out the BBC news today.

alangla · 7 Jan 2019

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46775079 - this presumably. The TSSA arranging a demonstration calling for ScotRail to be in public ownership. “Profits will be reinvested, fares down, investment up” - thought one of the big problems was that there were no profits & the only thing that kept the franchise going was cash sent from the mothership in Utrecht?

Mingulay · 7 Jan 2019

Highland37 said:
Check out the BBC news today.

This the demo by a union? Never far from the news Scotrail!

Leaving aside the cancellations. HST etc etc. This morning Dunblane Station can’t sell tickets. Both office and machine on platform failed . They are poor these ticket machines. Not sure the siting helped as it gets wind driven rain on it ! Unlikely to get a ticket on the train either. Those guard dispensers don’t work well either and likely as will be standing room by larbert ! Dismal experience. That will be me queuing at Platform 14! Add to that dirty trains and stations it’s hard to find some positives about Abellio. All this investment and it’s turned really sour for Scotrail and the poor passengers.

I must look out my letter from Keith Brown when I queried his selection of one of the worst operators in the UK for Scotland. ! How many transport ministers ago was that?

Scotland’s worst ever Franchise !

JohnR · 7 Jan 2019

cf111 said:
The HSTs are a major issue - it is a novel idea and I think one that may have tipped the franchise award in Abellio's favour as I don't think any other competitor was offering them as an option.

I don't doubt that the passenger experience will be improved on the InterCity lines in Scotland once they are in squadron service but it appears that the work that would be required on the 40 year-old Mk3 coaching stock was looked at in a more optimistic light than reality would allow. With that in mind I don't know if the other potential franchisees would have had the same issues - of course they could have had different, possibly worse ones!

I believe one of the other bidders was offering new stock, but at the time of the bid, it skewed the finances of the bid.

Judging by the short formations and cancellations this morning, I think most of the Classic sets are out of action. Most services are going to be running with 3 coaches not 4.

“Scotlands best ever railway”

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