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Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

47421

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It has always been stated that the two initial trains are just to start with & there is ambition for more to be added in future.

The Franchise Agreement includes a commitment to add from May 19 a third hourly LivSt to Norwich service, but no extra LivSt to Ipswich so plan must have been to extend the LivSt Ipswich. Like all the other planned service improvements due May 19 this has apparently been dropped.
We wait to see if the announced extra 1144 services a week due May 20 will happen, or as seems more likely it remains a figment of bid team and press office's imagination.
 
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dk1

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The Franchise Agreement includes a commitment to add from May 19 a third hourly LivSt to Norwich service, but no extra LivSt to Ipswich so plan must have been to extend the LivSt Ipswich. Like all the other planned service improvements due May 19 this has apparently been dropped.
We wait to see if the announced extra 1144 services a week due May 20 will happen, or as seems more likely it remains a figment of bid team and press office's imagination.
Probably simply down to late delivery of new stock & the DfTs knee jerk reaction to timetables. One of those things I suppose. Time will tell.
 

samuelmorris

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Definitely some more skewed peak timings in there, the Southend services moving from 9/11 minute gaps as now to 8/12 is a little bothersome but hopefully not too bad. The 21 min gap between the 1852 and 1913 is a bit rough considering the off-peak is meant to be 4tph fairly soon! That's still a fairly busy time of day and at least pre-720 introduction it'll only be an 8-car service at that time too so is likely to be pretty heavily loaded.

Are Anglia still expected to have that Norwich diagram 755 operated? I'll have to keep an eye out for that and have a go on it!
 

Wivenswold

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There's probably a good reason against, but instead of 3 tph London to Norwich off peak, wouldn't it make more sense to have 2 tph with a 30 min headway and a local all stops EMU each hour between Norwich & Ipswich? Would free up space further south to enhance an outer suburban service (2 tph to Clacton perhaps). I can't believe there's that many people travelling all the way from London and Essex to Norwich during the daytime but 3tph would be useful for more local journeys in Suffolk and Norfolk. The local service could even run to Colchester or Harwich.
 

LAX54

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If the 755's are not ready by May 17th, will they be using 360's on the runs at all ?
 

dk1

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If the 755's are not ready by May 17th, will they be using 360's on the runs at all ?
Maybe not. No Ipswich or Norwich crews sign them and Colchester drivers don't sign the route. Also none normally available.
 

Grumbler

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There's probably a good reason against, but instead of 3 tph London to Norwich off peak, wouldn't it make more sense to have 2 tph with a 30 min headway and a local all stops EMU each hour between Norwich & Ipswich? Would free up space further south to enhance an outer suburban service (2 tph to Clacton perhaps). I can't believe there's that many people travelling all the way from London and Essex to Norwich during the daytime but 3tph would be useful for more local journeys in Suffolk and Norfolk. The local service could even run to Colchester or Harwich.
That would mean pax from Norwich, Diss and Stowmarket having to change at Ipswich for points south e.g. Shenfield for the Southend branch.
 

Grumbler

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Yep.

Usage is irrelevant.

If they actually deliver it a certain MP will use it as her re-election campaign.

Would have been much better if her and the equally useless other Norwich MP had put their heads together and thought about some of the other issues that affect the service in general.
Smith's majority is wafer-thin so is unlikely to be re-elected. Lewis's seat is fairly safe, unfortunately.
 

dk1

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That would mean pax from Norwich, Diss and Stowmarket having to change at Ipswich for points south e.g. Shenfield for the Southend branch.
And more unneeded terminating trains at Colchester especially as Perterborough services will run through almost hourly.

The purpose of the extended stopper is to continue through services from Norfolk/Suffolk to intermediate stations through Essex thus allowing Intercity passengers a faster service. Calls at Chelmsford in these have been very unpopular since introduced in 2004 & Shenfield calls thankfully got abandoned in 2012.
 

steve_brown

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There's probably a good reason against, but instead of 3 tph London to Norwich off peak, wouldn't it make more sense to have 2 tph with a 30 min headway and a local all stops EMU each hour between Norwich & Ipswich?

That's what the extension of the Ipswich service delivers, with the added benefit of no change being required at Ipswich but the dis-benefit of some performance risk.

A separate stopping service with an extension to Colchester would require more movements over the problematic level crossings at Ardleigh, Manningtree (in particular) and Bentley and so would be unlikely in any case.

The Train Service Requirement https://assets.publishing.service.g...ast-anglia-2016-train-service-requirement.zip does not require or permit any significant reduction in calls at Chelmsford nor Manningtree; in the latter case removing the calls would break connections with the Harwich branch in one direction or the other. Also Manningtree is pretty busy with the car park having another 200 odd spaces added as it's become a park-and-ride for locations as far afield as Woodbridge and Hadleigh; season ticket costs are substantially lower than those from Ipswich as a legacy of the former NSE boundaries.
 

MatthewRead

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And more unneeded terminating trains at Colchester especially as Perterborough services will run through almost hourly.

The purpose of the extended stopper is to continue through services from Norfolk/Suffolk to intermediate stations through Essex thus allowing Intercity passengers a faster service. Calls at Chelmsford in these have been very unpopular since introduced in 2004 & Shenfield calls thankfully got abandoned in 2012.
I thought it was abandoned in December 2010.
 

Grumbler

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And more unneeded terminating trains at Colchester especially as Perterborough services will run through almost hourly.

The purpose of the extended stopper is to continue through services from Norfolk/Suffolk to intermediate stations through Essex thus allowing Intercity passengers a faster service. Calls at Chelmsford in these have been very unpopular since introduced in 2004 & Shenfield calls thankfully got abandoned in 2012.
The main two services an hour would be non-stop from Colchester to London. So intermediate stations would be served only by existing stoppers extended to / from Norwich.
 

steve_brown

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The main two services an hour would be non-stop from Colchester to London. So intermediate stations would be served only by existing stoppers extended to / from Norwich.

I'm not sure the TSR2 in the link above permits this, as it requires 31 stops at Chelmsford and 31 stops at Colchester (Table 2 off-peak) for example. So that's all except the 6 fast Norwich services, 1 per hour, with the Braintree services making up the difference.

TSR3 appears to suggest an additional Ipswich stopping service, i.e. 2 fast Norwich, 1 stopping Norwich and 1 stopping Ipswich, but TSR3 most be a long term aspiration?
 

Grumbler

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I'm not sure the TSR2 in the link above permits this, as it requires 31 stops at Chelmsford and 31 stops at Colchester (Table 2 off-peak) for example. So that's all except the 6 fast Norwich services, 1 per hour, with the Braintree services making up the difference.

TSR3 appears to suggest an additional Ipswich stopping service, i.e. 2 fast Norwich, 1 stopping Norwich and 1 stopping Ipswich, but TSR3 most be a long term aspiration?
AFAICS from the public TTs, the XX.02 departures from London serve all main stations to Ipswich arriving at XX.25, where I presume they terminate (please correct me if I'm wrong). Surely extending these to Stowmarket, Diss, and Norwich would be simple enough?
 

steve_brown

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AFAICS from the public TTs, the XX.02 departures from London serve all main stations to Ipswich arriving at XX.25, where I presume they terminate (please correct me if I'm wrong). Surely extending these to Stowmarket, Diss, and Norwich would be simple enough?

Yup that's correct, but the service frequencies to/from London at Chelmsford and Manningtree must remain pretty much as now, so the calling pattern of the InterCity services south of Ipswich can't change.

Extending every Ipswich service to Norwich is not totally straightforward because of capacity constraints between Diss and Norwich, so the TSR appears to offer a bit of leeway (e.g. Up 6 hours inter-peak Norwich = 16 but Ipswich = 19, so there can be 2 hours in which the Ipswich path is not extended or perhaps goes to Lowestoft instead).

All of this assumes that Abellio hasn't renegotiated the TSRs.
 

samuelmorris

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Wasn't the proposal to run the third Norwich as an entirely separate service in addition to the current 2 to Norwich and the Ipswich stopper which would be preserved? These in addition to the eventual 4tpd to Lowestoft.
 

steve_brown

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Wasn't the proposal to run the third Norwich as an entirely separate service in addition to the current 2 to Norwich and the Ipswich stopper which would be preserved? These in addition to the eventual 4tpd to Lowestoft.

That seems to be the service defined by TSR3, which was originally planned for May 2020. Using the same off-peak period, 17 trains from Norwich, 24 from Ipswich, 19 Manningtree, 31 Colchester, 31 Chelmsford so that would imply that 1 of the 4 tph from Ipswich would stop only at Colchester. Things are different in the Peaks, for example Manningtree retains calls in every service in the AM Peak.
 

Grumbler

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Yup that's correct, but the service frequencies to/from London at Chelmsford and Manningtree must remain pretty much as now, so the calling pattern of the InterCity services south of Ipswich can't change.

Extending every Ipswich service to Norwich is not totally straightforward because of capacity constraints between Diss and Norwich, so the TSR appears to offer a bit of leeway (e.g. Up 6 hours inter-peak Norwich = 16 but Ipswich = 19, so there can be 2 hours in which the Ipswich path is not extended or perhaps goes to Lowestoft instead).

All of this assumes that Abellio hasn't renegotiated the TSRs.
It seems odd that Abellio agreed to three trains an hour if two is the maximum allowed!
 

samuelmorris

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That seems to be the service defined by TSR3, which was originally planned for May 2020. Using the same off-peak period, 17 trains from Norwich, 24 from Ipswich, 19 Manningtree, 31 Colchester, 31 Chelmsford so that would imply that 1 of the 4 tph from Ipswich would stop only at Colchester. Things are different in the Peaks, for example Manningtree retains calls in every service in the AM Peak.
Makes sense, presumably the increased performance of the new stock (both directly and in terms of other services not being in the way) permits the 'Norwich in 90' to be achieved with a call at Manningtree.

I think this is probably the wrong thread for this discussion to proceed much further, but would definitely be interested to see what actual changes are expected in May 19, assuming no further delay to 745/755 introduction.
 

47421

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Under the Franchise Agreement GA committed to deliver TSR2 in May 19. Changes minor:

- Hertford East 2TPH to 3TPH off peak only
- Southend Vic 3TPH to 4TPH off peak only
- Norwich Cambridge hourly extended to Stansted Airport all day
- LivSt Ipswich hourly semifast extended to Norwich all day

Other posters say none of this will happen, which is confirmed by what shows on realtimetrains, in fact only changes are on GEML to accommodate the token Norwich in 90.

Separately the additional 2TPH Meridan Water to Stratford was originally due Dec 18 but was deferred to May 19 about a year ago. But realtimetrains shows no changes to the service at Angel Road/Meridian Water, so seems that this also may not happen.

TSR3 due May 20 is full recast. Publicity when franchise awarded said "extra 1144 trains a week". But no draft timetables ever made available publicly so no one knows if this is achievable by then or at all. Seems very unlikely it will be achieved by May 20. Per https://www.networkrail.co.uk/how-rail-timetabling-works/ operators are expected to give NR 14 months notice of significant changes, with a formal bid 10 months in advance. Perhaps GA are quietly doing all the work and will serve up well developed plans and get it all finalised with NR by May 20, but given all the other various deadlines missed (on train wifi, PRM mods, platform extensions, carnet ticketing, Brantham etc) seems very unlikely
 

LAX54

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With the Signalling system as it is Haughley to Norwich, then I would have thought 3 IS possible, but that would mean the likes of the North Walsham tanks would not have a path, it only just manages to squeeze in between the 1/2 hourly services now, plus of course there are a few paths for ECS moves, that again would not take place, so whereas you could run 3 to Norwich, it would have to be almost on a 2 hourly basis off peak
 

samuelmorris

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Under the Franchise Agreement GA committed to deliver TSR2 in May 19. Changes minor:

- Hertford East 2TPH to 3TPH off peak only
- Southend Vic 3TPH to 4TPH off peak only
- Norwich Cambridge hourly extended to Stansted Airport all day
- LivSt Ipswich hourly semifast extended to Norwich all day

Other posters say none of this will happen, which is confirmed by what shows on realtimetrains, in fact only changes are on GEML to accommodate the token Norwich in 90.

Separately the additional 2TPH Meridan Water to Stratford was originally due Dec 18 but was deferred to May 19 about a year ago. But realtimetrains shows no changes to the service at Angel Road/Meridian Water, so seems that this also may not happen.

TSR3 due May 20 is full recast. Publicity when franchise awarded said "extra 1144 trains a week". But no draft timetables ever made available publicly so no one knows if this is achievable by then or at all. Seems very unlikely it will be achieved by May 20. Per https://www.networkrail.co.uk/how-rail-timetabling-works/ operators are expected to give NR 14 months notice of significant changes, with a formal bid 10 months in advance. Perhaps GA are quietly doing all the work and will serve up well developed plans and get it all finalised with NR by May 20, but given all the other various deadlines missed (on train wifi, PRM mods, platform extensions, carnet ticketing, Brantham etc) seems very unlikely
Thanks for confirming that - I was going to say I'm sure I recall 4tph off-peak to Southend being due this year but could see no evidence of it in RTT despite the appearance of the new timetable with amended timings and the Norwich in 90 services.

I imagine the TSR3 timetable recast will occur at the next timetable change after the last of the new stock is delivered, so probably either Dec 2021 or May 2022.
 

samuelmorris

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I remember 90s calling at Shenfield, but that was when I was at school (i.e. until 2006). I didn't use the route much after that until I started working in London full-time in 2011. I don't recall seeing it happen then, but my memory from that far back is a bit hazy!
 

Wivenswold

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That would mean pax from Norwich, Diss and Stowmarket having to change at Ipswich for points south e.g. Shenfield for the Southend branch.
I had one of the hourly ICs stopping at Diss, Stowmarket Ipswich, Man'ree and Colchester, the second was the express, the third a local stopper that could connect with the express at Ipswich. My thinking was to open up an additional path south of Ipswich so that the Clacton line can have more than an hourly train.

The Clacton branch has a frankly dire out of peaks service for such a heavily populated area with awful road links. 1 tph an intermediate Colchester to Clacton via town, and one each per hour from Walton and Clacton to London is what's needed and it's one of those rare upgrades that needs no money, just a more balanced service for all.
 

steve_brown

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I had one of the hourly ICs stopping at Diss, Stowmarket Ipswich, Man'ree and Colchester, the second was the express, the third a local stopper that could connect with the express at Ipswich. My thinking was to open up an additional path south of Ipswich so that the Clacton line can have more than an hourly train.

The Clacton branch has a frankly dire out of peaks service for such a heavily populated area with awful road links. 1 tph an intermediate Colchester to Clacton via town, and one each per hour from Walton and Clacton to London is what's needed and it's one of those rare upgrades that needs no money, just a more balanced service for all.

As explained above, under the TSR there cannot be any reduction in service frequencies at Manningtree, Chelmsford or Stratford, which is implied by your proposal.

TSR3 gets around this by introducing a fourth stopping path as far as Ipswich and extending one stopper to Norwich.
 

Grumbler

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I had one of the hourly ICs stopping at Diss, Stowmarket Ipswich, Man'ree and Colchester, the second was the express, the third a local stopper that could connect with the express at Ipswich. My thinking was to open up an additional path south of Ipswich so that the Clacton line can have more than an hourly train.

The Clacton branch has a frankly dire out of peaks service for such a heavily populated area with awful road links. 1 tph an intermediate Colchester to Clacton via town, and one each per hour from Walton and Clacton to London is what's needed and it's one of those rare upgrades that needs no money, just a more balanced service for all.
An option for the third Norwich service would be to combine it with a Lowestoft portion south of Ipswich, thus freeing up paths for Clacton.
 

dk1

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Holding up a Norwich service based on what goes on with the Lowestoft branch though? Not sure I can see them willing to do that.
It would only take a couple of extra minutes as was quite easy with as the 170s attaching on the 07:05 Yarmouth/06:44 Lowestoft at Ipswich each morning for over 10yrs. Remember it will only be the 'slow' service from Norwich & if the East Suffolk is running too late it can simply terminate with the passengers going forward on the next available whilst the Norwich continues right time.
 

samuelmorris

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It would only take a couple of extra minutes as was quite easy with as the 170s attaching on the 07:05 Yarmouth/06:44 Lowestoft at Ipswich each morning for over 10yrs. Remember it will only be the 'slow' service from Norwich & if the East Suffolk is running too late it can simply terminate with the passengers going forward on the next available whilst the Norwich continues right time.
Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at. Norwich services have a bit of a reputation for being put through no matter what at considerable expense to passengers travelling on literally any other services.
 

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