Penalty Fare notice

Thank you.Thanks all. My daughter is only 17. She hardly ever uses the train, wouldn't even be aware of the bye-laws (I know ignorance isn't a defence, but do they really expect kids to know bye-laws?) and she suffers from seizures which can be brought on by stress. I hadn't really wanted to mention that on here but it is the main reason why I am upset about this. She is a very good kid (and this isn't me being a biased dad) who would never try to avoid paying for anything (she can't pass a busker without giving money if she has some on her). I will contact them, pay the £20 and see what happens.

Apologies, I thought I had posted a reply but can't now see it. Thanks for all the responses. To answer a question above, my daughter is only 17. She has hardly ever used a train in her life unless with me and/or mum. I know ignorance is no defence but what kids are going to know train bye-laws especially if they don't use trains much? It was only her second ever visit to Poynton station. As I said above, the train had pulled in so they didn't need to check which was the correct platform and were running to get the train, so wouldn't have seen that sign on the side wall.

A quick question please? I appealed the fine. Presumably the fine can't be increase while the appeal is being considered. All the advice to get it paid asap makes me think otherwise. Thanks in advance.

Phil Holland said:

I assume fines can't be increased when they have been appealed?

Click to expand...

Penalty fares should be paid and then appealed, so that the amount payable does not increase. This is (usually) clearly explained on the notice itself. Failure to pay within 21 days can lead to fees being added and the amount payable increasing, as you have found.

If you follow the formal appeal procedure, the penalty cannot have charges added until 14 days after an appeal has been decided, BUT I would still almost always recommend paying it up-front. You might miss an important deadline later or forget to do something, or an important letter might go astray in the post. Paying de-escalates the situation and your co-operation with the process strengthens your legal position. If you win an appeal then, the train company must repay it in full within 10 working days.

Phil Holland said:

Thank you.Thanks all. My daughter is only 17. She hardly ever uses the train, wouldn't even be aware of the bye-laws (I know ignorance isn't a defence, but do they really expect kids to know bye-laws?) and she suffers from seizures which can be brought on by stress. I hadn't really wanted to mention that on here but it is the main reason why I am upset about this. She is a very good kid (and this isn't me being a biased dad) who would never try to avoid paying for anything (she can't pass a busker without giving money if she has some on her). I will contact them, pay the £20 and see what happens.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification in respect of your daughter's age, I noted that as you had mentioned her delay being attributable to looking for parking, I had wrongly assumed her being the driver and over 18. Whilst she could still have been a driver at 17, I should not have assumed. My apology.

I shall not join the debate about interpretation and hypothetical choices being suggested for the TOC by others, I prefer to leave that to the TOC and the rules rather than second guess their thoughts.

I'm sorry if you may have thought I was suggesting that you are over-protective, I was not, but when appeals or complaints come in from a third party, the staff concerned will inevitably have to bear this in mind. In the knowledge that she is only 17 years of age, then they will accept your representation and respond accordingly.

However, the best suggestion that has been given remains that the Penalty Fare should be paid and then appealed.

Good luck.

Phil Holland said:

Clearly this is a pure money making exercise, with no thought for the customers.

Click to expand...

Quite possibly, but it's condoned in the rules as set out by the government. The Secretary of State recently removed a number of protections for passengers in his update to the Statutory Instrument which governs Penalty Fares.

What I am trying to say is that you may feel that Penalty Fares are unfair. I would encourage you to write to your MP highlighting your concerns. If you are as concerned as I am about the impact of the Penalty Fare rollout, you could ask them to consider supporting changes to Penalty Fares regulation, and if this doesn't stop the abuse, withdrawal of the Railway's Penalty Fares scheme

Fare-Cop said:

Thank you for the clarification in respect of your daughter's age, I noted that as you had mentioned her delay being attributable to looking for parking, I had wrongly assumed her being the driver and over 18. Whilst she could still have been a driver at 17, I should not have assumed. My apology.

I shall not join the debate about interpretation and hypothetical choices being suggested for the TOC by others, I prefer to leave that to the TOC and the rules rather than second guess their thoughts.

I'm sorry if you may have thought I was suggesting that you are over-protective, I was not, but when appeals or complaints come in from a third party, the staff concerned will inevitably have to bear this in mind. In the knowledge that she is only 17 years of age, then they will accept and respond to your representation.

However, the best suggestion that has been given remains that the Penalty Fare should be paid and then appealed.

Good luck.

Click to expand...

There is every chance that they might still say no and refuse to hear that representation as it is still third party. Perhaps a letter of permission to deal with the penalty fare from the person concerned will help?

furlong said:

If you follow the formal appeal procedure, the penalty cannot have charges added until 14 days after an appeal has been decided, BUT I would still almost always recommend paying it up-front. You might miss an important deadline later or forget to do something, or an important letter might go astray in the post. Paying de-escalates the situation and your co-operation with the process strengthens your legal position. If you win an appeal then, the train company must repay it in full within 10 working days.

Click to expand...

I still wouldn't advise paying in full. I would recommend paying half of the penalty fare (if greater than £20) or failing that the price of a single ticket between the origin and destination with no railcard discount. That way a criminal prosecution under the RoRA can't take place but your not giving money away that you are unlikely to see again as the appeals process is deliberately biased in favour of the TOCs.

Phil Holland said:

A quick question please? I appealed the fine. Presumably the fine can't be increase while the appeal is being considered. All the advice to get it paid asap makes me think otherwise. Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

The Penalty Fare Notice cannot be increased while the appeal is being considered. A TOC is not a court and cannot fine you or anyone else. A penalty fare notice is a civil penalty and not a fine nor any other type of criminal matter. As is confirmed by the Bill of Rights Act 1689, "all fines and forfeitures levied before conviction are illegal and void". So there is no need to treat it like a fine, it's up to you whether you wish to pay on her behalf on your own free will but bear in mind that the same methods of enforcement which can be used for court fines can't be used if you choose not to pay it.

MPotter said:

I still wouldn't advise paying in full. I would recommend paying half of the penalty fare (if greater than £20) or failing that the price of a single ticket between the origin and destination with no railcard discount. That way a criminal prosecution under the RoRA can't take place but your not giving money away that you are unlikely to see again as the appeals process is deliberately biased in favour of the TOCs.

Click to expand...

If you are given a Penalty Fare then that - at this point in time - is your fare for the specific journey and that is the fare that is due - not half of it, not some other notional amount based on the price of some particular other ticket. Paying half of it or the price of a single after your journey will offer no protection against an allegation that you travelled without previously paying your fare.

furlong said:

If you are given a Penalty Fare then that - at this point in time - is your fare for the specific journey and that is the fare that is due - not half of it, not some other notional amount based on the price of some particular other ticket. Paying half of it or the price of a single after your journey will offer no protection against an allegation that you travelled without previously paying your fare.

Click to expand...

Setting railway bylaws 17 and 18 aside, it is only a criminal offence under the RoRA where the person concerned did so with the intent of avoiding payment. If the fare is paid on demand and the person carried a debit card honestly believing that they had money on it and that the facility to purchase a ticket onboard would be available then this offence is not made out due to a lack of intent in my opinion.

However a criminal offence under the relevant bylaw (either 17 or 18 depending on whether it took place in a ticketless travel area or not respectively) is made out where the person boards a train without having previously paid the fare and none the following possible defences apply: 1) a sign was present authorising journeys to be started without a ticket 2) no ticket purchasing facilities were available 3) a member of railway staff gave the person permission to board the train without a ticket. Fortunately in this particular case the chance of a criminal prosecution is close to nil due to a lack of public interest given the age of the person concerned and their medical condition which could be worsened by prosecuting. If a prosecution was started, I'm sure the CPS would be quite happy to take it over and discontinue it or offer no evidence if they were made aware by the defence.

MPotter said:

If the fare is paid on demand and the person carried a debit card honestly believing that they had money on it and that the facility to purchase a ticket onboard would be available then this offence is not made out due to a lack of intent in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Apart from the difficulty of persuading someone such a belief was honest when you disregarded both available ticketing facilities and bright warning signs.

Fortunately in this particular case the chance of a criminal prosecution is close to nil due to a lack of public interest given the age of the person concerned and their medical condition which could be worsened by prosecuting. If a prosecution was started, I'm sure the CPS would be quite happy to take it over and discontinue it or offer no evidence if they were made aware by the defence.

Click to expand...

To what medical condition are you referring? I doubt there's a useful public interest argument against prosecution.

As happens far too often in here, a thread is veering way off-track.

furlong said:

As happens far too often in here, a thread is veering way off-track.

Click to expand...

Where is that 'Like' button? Someone posts genuinely asking for advice and gets dragged off into all sorts of esoteric arguments.

I have one question about the Penalty Fare notice - which looks like the standard Northern notice popping up at many stations so should kill the arguments about defective wording - the one in the photo is positioned so it is right in front of someone coming down the stairs from the other platform. As the OP's daughter used these stairs, is there a notice in a similar position on the other side of the station? If you are rushing to board a train you aren't going to stop and read it anyway but that doesn't reduce its effect.

snail said:

Where is that 'Like' button? Someone posts genuinely asking for advice and gets dragged off into all sorts of esoteric arguments.

I have one question about the Penalty Fare notice - which looks like the standard Northern notice popping up at many stations so should kill the arguments about defective wording - the one in the photo is positioned so it is right in front of someone coming down the stairs from the other platform. As the OP's daughter used these stairs, is there a notice in a similar position on the other side of the station? If you are rushing to board a train you aren't going to stop and read it anyway but that doesn't reduce its effect.

Click to expand...

The advice has been very helpful thanks, and much appreciated and to answer a question above I certainly haven't been offended by any of the responses. I don't know the answer to the question about the other side of the platform but, as you quite rightly say, no-one running to catch a train that has already pulled in is going to be looking at signs along the way.

snail said:

Where is that 'Like' button? Someone posts genuinely asking for advice and gets dragged off into all sorts of esoteric arguments.

I have one question about the Penalty Fare notice - which looks like the standard Northern notice popping up at many stations so should kill the arguments about defective wording - the one in the photo is positioned so it is right in front of someone coming down the stairs from the other platform. As the OP's daughter used these stairs, is there a notice in a similar position on the other side of the station? If you are rushing to board a train you aren't going to stop and read it anyway but that doesn't reduce its effect.

Click to expand...

I don't think there is one. Sorry about that, I was genuinely trying to help Mr Holland.