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Death Penalty for Violent Crimes

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ComUtoR

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It's not a case of faith in the legal system but more a devils advocacy where capital punishment would need to come with some very heavy caveats and conclusive evidence.

Without going off topic too much. I was watching some news this afternoon regarding sexual offenses and errors in evidence gathering with some rather shocking statistics. A lack of evidence does not mean that the crime was not committed.

IF and only IF capital punishment was brought back I would want so much evidence and due process and an absolute certainty. I don't follow the American judicial system. Is it the case of people being held on death row for such a long time because that due process needs to be carried out ? IF someone has been found guilty, given a death sentence; then why isn't it carried out swiftly ? If Timothy Evans was remanded in custody longer or served out a specified sentence before being hanged then he may not have been hanged. Christie was caught a few years later.

Full disclosure : I was against capital punishment when I was younger. I went through a period where I would have supported it. I know deep in my heart its wrong and should never come back but I am not sure which way I would vote anymore.
 
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ComUtoR

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The BBC series on it a couple of years ago is well worth a watch too. The actor who played Christie was superb

I have seen the Richard Attenborough version a few times and the recent Tim Roth version is sitting in my planner waiting to watch.
 

Joe Paxton

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No to the death penalty. Outside of war, the state / a civilised society shouldn't kill.
 

farleigh

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I have no opinion on whether the death penalty should be re-introduced as:

1. I know that the murder rate in Britain has increased (almost) exponentially since the death penalty was abolished.

2. I have no trust in the police not to 'fit up' innocent people.

Because of (1), more innocent people have been killed as a result of the abolition.

Because of (2), innocent people were executed as a result of injustices.

If (2) were not an issue, I would probably favour a re-introduction for the greater good.
 

Busaholic

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It's really a matter of logic. If society (the state) decrees that the most heinous crime you can commit is to deliberately kill another person, then what penalty should result? To say that the state's response is to, in turn, commit that most heinous act on the perpetrator is illogical and perverse, and sends out the signal that, maybe, such a thing can after all be tolerated.

This was far from an academic subject when I was growing up - I was well into my teens before the death penalty was abolished in this country. I remember reading Brendan Behan's 'The Quare Fellow' which absolutely convinced me of the wrongness of the death penalty in civil society i.e. outside wartime. Another memory, a few years later and by then married, was being told by my father-in-law as we travelled on a bus in Preston that a man stood waiting at a bus stop was Albert Pierrepoint Jnr, Britain's last hangman: I subsequently read that he, like his father from whom he had inherited the position, had become utterly opposed to the death penalty. Food for thought.
 

DynamicSpirit

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It's really a matter of logic. If society (the state) decrees that the most heinous crime you can commit is to deliberately kill another person, then what penalty should result? To say that the state's response is to, in turn, commit that most heinous act on the perpetrator is illogical and perverse, and sends out the signal that, maybe, such a thing can after all be tolerated.

I don't think that logic holds. Any workable criminal justice system must involve the state doing things that would be considered crimes if an individual did them. Fining somebody amounts to demanding money from them - equivalent to extortion or to theft, which would be considered a pretty serious crime if an individual did it - but I'm sure you wouldn't use that to argue that the Government shouldn't fine people. Similarly we accept not only putting people in prison, but actually having the police on occasions locking them up before they've even been charged or convicted. Again that would be a serious crime if an individual did that to someone else, but I imagine we all accept that it's a necessary part of the criminal justice system. The death penalty doesn't seem to be any different in principle in that regard (just more severe).
 
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The death penalty is an awful barbaric outdated punishment and has no place in the 21st century. It is simply murder. The death penalty is just the government legalising the murder of their own citizens as long as they commit it themselves.

Giving someone the death penalty makes the government and courts just as bad as the murderer themselves. I am sure we have all been taught from a very young age as children that if someone hits you or punches you then you shouldn't hit or punch them back. So this is really the same thing. Just because someone kills someone it doesn't give you the right to then go and kill the murderer.

Also the death penalty is not even as big a punishment as some people think. Because once you have been executed your punishment is over. You are no longer alive and therefore no longer serving your punishment any more. So surely it is a much bigger punishment to just lock someone up in prison for many years or for the rest of their life. Therefore they will serve a much longer punishment by staying alive in prison.

I prefer the method used in Iceland and other Nordic countries where they give much shorter sentences and far more luxurious prisons but they actually help you to change and become a better person when you get released. For example in Iceland the maximum prison sentence possible is 20 years. No matter how many crimes you committed and how serious your crimes were you will always be released after a maximum of 20 years at the very most. These methods used in Nordic countries have proven to be very effective (even for very violent criminals) with a very low re offending rate after they get released. This is because they give you lots of help so that you will come out as a changed person and won't re commit any crimes again. I believe everyone deserves a second chance.

The death penalty can also end up killing innocent people. There have been many stories in the USA about innocent people spending 50 years or more in prison and then they finally realise they had the wrong person. There are probably many other innocent people still in prison. And most importantly it is thought that there are some innocent people who have been executed in the USA in the past.

The death penalty does nothing to prevent or reduce crime either. The crime levels in the USA are extremely high despite them having the death penalty.

Nobody deserves the death penalty. Even if someone murdered a million people i still wouldn't support the death penalty for them.
 

trash80

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cb a1

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If someone murdered someone I care deeply about, would I want them to receive the death penalty?

No. I fully get the retribution aspect of whatever penalty someone gets and for me death does not satisfy that need. Maybe if I were religious and truly believed that the person would go to hell, then maybe, but from my perspective they're dead - they are no longer feeling anything. On a personal level (and I appreciate that I may be in a very small minority here), I find a loss of liberty spanning many years and possibly for the rest of my life far more terrifying than dying.

At a wider societal level, my main concern would be the 'need' of society to see murders solved and the impact this has on the Police to 'deliver' a solved case. I'm not convinced that our police service will just 'fit up' someone, but when there is societal pressure to solve a particularly heinous case, this introduces a bias which would trouble me.
 

hooverboy

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Will the death penalty stop awful crimes being committed? Do people still murder each other in America? Do people still abuse children in America? Do people still commit espionage or treason in America? Is rape still committed in America?

Surely, if people in favour of the death penalty are to be believed, these crimes must be a thing of the past in states in the USA that have the death penalty. Are there any statistics that could help us here?
the answer to the above question is of course yes, and the yanks DO execute them.

there are some crimes where it is absolutely necessary to dispose of the offender(ie espionage)
the offender in question may still be in posession of sensitive information,and will still have the ability to divulge or pass on said information if mererly incarcerated.

I think where the yanks have gone wrong in the past is a couple of things:
1) a significant number of convicts are there because of heat of the moment "crimes of passion", rather than outright premeditated malice
2) in the US, some states it is legal for accomlplices or associates to be given the sentence as well as ther perpatrators.doesn't seem right....lots of cases where the shooter entered a plea bargain and got life,whereas the associate got death.
3) up until recently a lot of states could give the sentence on a majority verdict,rather than a unanimous one.
4)lawyers make a killing(excuse the pun) on endless appeals
5)if upheld to the geneva convention this would not happen. The sentence would have to be carried out within 5 years by means of less offensive contraptions
 

whhistle

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So "we" should kill someone who killed someone else?
Doesn't really make sense as "we" are just doing what the person did in the first place!

The real problem is prisons.
I understand prisoners have rights, and some prisoners want to reform but prisons are not really a deterrent.

While expensive, some sort of prison like in that movie (Super Mario Bros, Face/Off or an Arnold Swartz film - I can't remember which), that replaces everyones shoes with metal boots that then become magnetic on the floor if needed.
Keeping prisoners in individual cells for a long time each day serving meals to them instead of being able to wander about, get into fights, receive parcels via drones and such...

We've tried the softly softly approach for a long time and I'm not convinced of the results (although I haven't actually seen any stats).
 

trash80

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The problem is whether you think prisons are just to punish or they are to reform, there is little evidence the former does anything good for society in general.
 

baz962

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Look up the case of Troy Davis. Convicted on the eyewitness testimony of nine people . Seven admitted to lying and the jury later said they believe they convicted the wrong man . He was still executed.
 

AlterEgo

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So "we" should kill someone who killed someone else?
Doesn't really make sense as "we" are just doing what the person did in the first place!

So if an offender kidnaps someone and keeps them locked in a cage for ten years, you don’t think we should imprison them?
 

trash80

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I think this discussion is becoming silly. So if someone kills someone in an RTA we should run them over in a police car? If a boiler manufacturer produces a defective boiler that kills someone we should blow up the MD?
 

DynamicSpirit

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Giving someone the death penalty makes the government and courts just as bad as the murderer themselves. I am sure we have all been taught from a very young age as children that if someone hits you or punches you then you shouldn't hit or punch them back. So this is really the same thing. Just because someone kills someone it doesn't give you the right to then go and kill the murderer.

So "we" should kill someone who killed someone else?
Doesn't really make sense as "we" are just doing what the person did in the first place!

Oh this is getting ridiculous! Both of these posts amount to saying that we shouldn't have the death penalty because that's the Government doing something that is wrong if an individual does it. I've pointed the massive logical flaw in that argument twice in this thread (in posts #44 and #66): Noone has replied to either of my posts, from which I would surmise that noone can fault my logic. Yet people keep repeating this flawed argument.

Has reading at least some of a thread before you post a reply gone out of fashion?

Also the death penalty is not even as big a punishment as some people think. Because once you have been executed your punishment is over. You are no longer alive and therefore no longer serving your punishment any more. So surely it is a much bigger punishment to just lock someone up in prison for many years or for the rest of their life. Therefore they will serve a much longer punishment by staying alive in prison.

I agree with this part. Personally, my own sympathy for the death penalty is not at all based on vengeance or on giving someone as big a punishment as possible. It's based on the view that if a person has no regard for others and will, if they remain alive, continue to ruin other people's lives by assaulting/robbing/raping/etc. other people, then the death penalty may be the only realistic way to protect other innocent members of the public.
 

AlterEgo

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I think this discussion is becoming silly. So if someone kills someone in an RTA we should run them over in a police car? If a boiler manufacturer produces a defective boiler that kills someone we should blow up the MD?

It's not silly to rebut the idea that the state is never allowed to enact a punishment which is similar to the crime.

If we accept the state does indeed do many things which would otherwise be illegal done by a person, and in some cases enacts punishments similar to the crime committed (fines, imprisonment, forced work) - we should now be able to move away from this point and debate the death penalty on its actual merits.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Plenty people did though. Pickpocketing, prostitution, drugs, robbery. Not modern phenomena.

People only left their doors unlocked if they had nowt worth nicking!


A trawl through both local and national newspapers will give plenty of evidence of very serious criminality and violence in both the 19th and 20th societies , - even "calm" rural areas such as Carmarthenshire had serious issues , and drunken violence on a weekend (even though the rural workers were anything but well paid) , was endemic. As was the availability of guns - and not for farm use either.

One feature of this period (reading court reports in the press) , is that the magistrates were of a higher social class and were generally harsh , and IMHO , always supported the establishement and the police.
 

Basher

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I also support that anyone convicted of treason should be hanged.
 

cjp

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It will cost less to execute a person than it does to incarcerate them for 30+ years.


Society looks after society rather than the individuals in society so if people break the strongest of society's taboos by killing another person in anger let them die in return.


Yes there may be injustices, it always was so, but the alternative is going the way of the USA and building more and more jails. Of course why a person deserves being locked up at all is another matter and we are really talking about the death penalty v lifelong incarceration so apologies for digressing.


The death penalty eliminates those who are unable to comply with society's rules at minimal cost to society.


This caught my eye today
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46804698

A 14-year-old boy has been stabbed to death by attackers who knocked him off a moped, in what police believe was a targeted attack.

Jayden Moodie was found wounded in Bickley Road, Waltham Forest, at 18:30 GMT on Tuesday.

Detectives believe the moped had been involved in a crash with a car, after which three men got out the vehicle, stabbed the teenager and drove off.

He died at the scene. No arrests have been made and a cordon is in place.

Jayden, who police said lived in the area with his mother, is believed to be the youngest victim to die on London's streets in the past year......
Kerry-Ann Honeygahn told the BBC how a few weeks ago, her friend took a knife away from the boy.

The 38-year-old youth mentor said she "wasn't surprised" to hear of the violence.


About a 14 year old being murdered whilst on his moped – my question is what is a 14 year doing on a moped and why his family permitted it? They had already put themselves outside society's rules in a large way. As for the killers – well they are not nice people so rather than spends thousands and thousands on them let them die.


As an aside I am also in favour of euthanasia as a resolution to suffering.
 

trash80

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Would you be so flippant about "injustices" if it was a relation who was going to be executed for a crime they didn't commit, or even yourself?
 

cjp

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Not flippant but realistic.

For myself I would do all I could but in the end if that is society's rule then I chose society knowing that indeed my little vote was part of creating society with its benefits and restrictions.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Would you be so flippant about "injustices" if it was a relation who was going to be executed for a crime they didn't commit, or even yourself?

I think the trouble is that it's not all a one way street here: Clearly someone being executed for a crime they did not commit is absolutely terrible. But then so is being murdered or raped or seriously injured or having your life savings stolen by a criminal, and it seems plausible that the death penalty would prevent at least a few of those from happening.

Let's say that hypothetically, we re-introduce the death penalty. Each year lots of hardened criminals get executed, but amongst that number 2 innocent people get executed. But on the flip side, some of the executed criminals would - had they not been executed - between them have later on murdered 5 people AND raped 5 women, burgled 30 houses and caused life-changing injuries to 20 members of the public. Obviously I've just made those figures up but they don't seem totally implausible to me. So you've just wrongly executed 2 people, but on the flip side you've saved 5 other people from being murdered and a lot of people from having their lives devastated. Is it worth it? Obviously, that's a judgement call. But if in reality the figures are anything like the ones I've just made up (big if, I know), then overall you'd arguably have done a lot more good than harm by reintroducing the death penalty.
 

nlogax

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For myself I would do all I could but in the end if that is society's rule then I chose society knowing that indeed my little vote was part of creating society with its benefits and restrictions.

Easy to say that while sitting behind a keyboard knowing it's never going to happen, right?
 

Bald Rick

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The death penalty in the U.K. was abolished in 1998 in order for us to sign up to the European Convention on Human Rights; subsequently updated in 2004 such that it prohibits the U.K. from reinstating it for as long as we are signatories to the ECHR. (No Brexit discussion please).

It should not be reinstated. It is plain wrong. I don’t believe that it would have any influence on people committing serious crimes. Indeed, I can’t imagine that there are many people committing such crimes actually believe they will be caught, tried and found guilty.

I do, however, have some sympathy with the view that prison is ‘too easy’. It is clear that more could be done with the prison system that a) improves the level of education (social, academic and occupational) and mental health provision such that offenders, when released, are better people with a better chance in life, and b) that there is some ‘hard work’ requirement such that offenders have to do work that is, frankly, unattractive. (I’m not talking about breaking rocks!). But I know that if someone I know and love was the victim of a serious crime, I would want them to have the best chance to reform, but also to have to do some bloody hard work whilst reforming.

As an aside, I once had a pub quiz question which asked who was U.K. Prime Minister when the last death penalty was handed down in a court in the British Isles. (John Major).
 

Busaholic

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The death penalty in the U.K. was abolished in 1998 in order for us to sign up to the European Convention on Human Rights; subsequently updated in 2004 such that it prohibits the U.K. from reinstating it for as long as we are signatories to the ECHR. (No Brexit discussion please).

It should not be reinstated. It is plain wrong. I don’t believe that it would have any influence on people committing serious crimes. Indeed, I can’t imagine that there are many people committing such crimes actually believe they will be caught, tried and found guilty.

I do, however, have some sympathy with the view that prison is ‘too easy’. It is clear that more could be done with the prison system that a) improves the level of education (social, academic and occupational) and mental health provision such that offenders, when released, are better people with a better chance in life, and b) that there is some ‘hard work’ requirement such that offenders have to do work that is, frankly, unattractive. (I’m not talking about breaking rocks!). But I know that if someone I know and love was the victim of a serious crime, I would want them to have the best chance to reform, but also to have to do some bloody hard work whilst reforming.

As an aside, I once had a pub quiz question which asked who was U.K. Prime Minister when the last death penalty was handed down in a court in the British Isles. (John Major).
A British Overseas Territory?

Most prisons are in an appalling state with no end in sight to their decline into anarchy. Money (or, rather, lack of it) and the transfer to the private sector of so many gaols have precipitated this, together with a rising prison population. Rehabilitation isn't even a dirty word any longer, it's a non-existent one. Disorder is rife in many larger prisons, and 'containment' is the name of the game. Corruption of prison officers is a serious concern, and getting worse... Still, this is getting away from the original subject. Personally, I think that total life imprisonment should probably apply in rather more (but by no means all) cases than currently, though I do understand the logistical problems this would bring.
 

muz379

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It's not a case of faith in the legal system but more a devils advocacy where capital punishment would need to come with some very heavy caveats and conclusive evidence.
The standard for indictable offences is already beyond all reasonable doubt judged by a Jury of peers . You cannot get much more conclusive than this , whilst also creating a system which will actually convict some people .

Without going off topic too much. I was watching some news this afternoon regarding sexual offenses and errors in evidence gathering with some rather shocking statistics. A lack of evidence does not mean that the crime was not committed.
Indeed a lack of evidence does not mean that someone did not actually do the crime , but its a generally accepted principle of criminal justice that in order to prosecute someone and for them to be found guilty there has to be some evidence .

IF and only IF capital punishment was brought back I would want so much evidence and due process and an absolute certainty. I don't follow the American judicial system. Is it the case of people being held on death row for such a long time because that due process needs to be carried out ? IF someone has been found guilty, given a death sentence; then why isn't it carried out swiftly ? If Timothy Evans was remanded in custody longer or served out a specified sentence before being hanged then he may not have been hanged. Christie was caught a few years later.
Firstly , the appeals process for someone sentenced to death in the USA varies between those convicted in state courts and those convicted of federal crimes .All states follow the same process and practically all states make the first stage of the appeals process which is essentially a review of the trial by the states appellate court mandatory the rest of the stages are discretionary . Homicide trials can be fairly complex , and to give proper consideration to all of the details of the trial in an appellate court does take considerable time , just as a Jury has to make a majority decision convict and pass the death penalty the bench of any appellate court has to make a majority decision which could involve some complex legal argument . The time taken to process such cases is long because the appellate court of each state will also have other cases to hear so an appeal for a capital sentence cannot be listed immediately . Lawyers for both the state and the convict will also need sufficient time to prepare for the hearing . This is multiplied by however many stages of appeal the convict engages with . Late stages of appeal are also designed to look at other factors like Jury misconduct , or any withholding of evidence by the state which would have been beneficial to the defence (it does happen) . Appellate courts need to seriously consider cases given what is at stakes and the constitutional ramifications of executing someone who is innocent .

There has also been issues in the past 5 years with both sourcing of drugs for lethal injections due to a number of suppliers simply refusing to supply states and the constitutional status of use of certain drug protocols used as part of the lethal injection . In the USA the constitution guarantees the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment and there was increasing evidence that in some cases prisoners being administered the lethal injection did obviously suffer intense pain before dying , and indeed in some cases the execution was just unsuccessful . Being unable to find drugs and people willing to administer them has caused significant delays in some states in more recent times .

This is why time spent on death row can be incredibly protracted , and indeed I think personally there is some scope for a constitutional challenge to this being cruel and unusual . The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council which is essentially made up of the judicial members of the house of lords when it still had a judicial function as the highest appeal court in England and Wales thought this to be true in 1993 when considering the case of a man who had been on death row in Jamaica for over a decade .

Personally If the death penalty was reintroduced in the UK , either as an option for judges when sentencing or as a decision to be made by a Jury I and I suspect many others would want to be excluded from Jury duty , I would personally never want to play a part in potentially ending a life of someone who turned out to be innocent even as obliquely as the involvement of a Juror is in actually ending the life . However as we have seen time and time again in the USA with cases of Jury misconduct there are some people among us who would be more than happy and sometimes their motives and prejudices are contrary to the interests of fairness .

I also support that anyone convicted of treason should be hanged.
And when was the last time someone was convicted of treason ?

Yes there may be injustices, it always was so, but the alternative is going the way of the USA and building more and more jails. Of course why a person deserves being locked up at all is another matter and we are really talking about the death penalty v lifelong incarceration so apologies for digressing.
That is not the only solution , you could of course actually make reforms in the prison system so that many more offenders are rehabilitated leaving long term stays in prisons for only the most serious offenders who are actually a danger to the public .

The death penalty in the U.K. was abolished in 1998 in order for us to sign up to the European Convention on Human Rights; subsequently updated in 2004 such that it prohibits the U.K. from reinstating it for as long as we are signatories to the ECHR. (No Brexit discussion please).
Precisely , regardless of what peoples moral or practical views are . From a strictly legal perspective to reintroduce the death penalty we would have to cease being signatories to the human rights charter we played a large part in authoring and championing . And even if we did cease being part of the ECHR we would still be breaking UN resolutions which whilst not binding would be rather embarrassing as a nation . If it was reintroduced I believe we would be the first nation in the world to do so .
 
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