GWR Compensation / FGW Link

cb00 · 9 Jan 2019

Does anyone have information on the compensation arrangements that apply on the Worcester - Paddington route with GWR?

There was a delay on an HST service of over two hours, meaning a payment of 100% of the ticket. GWR have provided 50% saying that this route was inherited from FGW Link and is not a high speed service. From their website:

High Speed Services
Former First Great Western services
If you’re delayed by more than an hour, we’ll compensate you for the full value of that part of the journey. That’s 50% of the cost of a return, and 100% of a single.
If you’re delayed by more than two hours, we’ll compensate you for the full cost of your ticket.

London – Thames Valley
Former First Great Western Link services
We’ll compensate you for 50% of the cost of your tickets if you're delayed by:
30 minutes on a rail journey of less than an hour
1 hour on a rail journey of over an hour

I’m pretty sure from memory that they issued a full refund on journey in late 2017/early 2018 where there was a delay of over 2 hours. Can anyone advise or point me in the direction of where I can find this out for sure? Thanks.

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ForTheLoveOf · 9 Jan 2019

cb00 said:
Does anyone have information on the compensation arrangements that apply on the Worcester - Paddington route with GWR?

There was a delay on an HST service of over two hours, meaning a payment of 100% of the ticket. GWR have provided 50% saying that this route was inherited from FGW Link and is not a high speed service. From their website:

High Speed Services
Former First Great Western services
If you’re delayed by more than an hour, we’ll compensate you for the full value of that part of the journey. That’s 50% of the cost of a return, and 100% of a single.
If you’re delayed by more than two hours, we’ll compensate you for the full cost of your ticket.

London – Thames Valley
Former First Great Western Link services
We’ll compensate you for 50% of the cost of your tickets if you're delayed by:
30 minutes on a rail journey of less than an hour
1 hour on a rail journey of over an hour

I’m pretty sure from memory that they issued a full refund on journey in late 2017/early 2018 where there was a delay of over 2 hours. Can anyone advise or point me in the direction of where I can find this out for sure? Thanks.

Worcester to Paddington on an HST is clearly not an ex-FGW Link route. The mere fact that the rolling stock is an HST and that there is a buffet etc. should tell them that!

Get back to them and ask them to review their decision, in view of the fact that FGW would, in fact, have operated such a service (it being an HST with far greater facilities than a Turbo).

island · 9 Jan 2019

FGW Link did indeed run Paddington-Didcot Parkway-Oxford-Hereford for the almost two years of its existence; it was inherited from Thames Trains (as was) before it and Wessex Trains were folded into FGW in April 2006.

Whilst it borders on the absurd that the delay compensation policy should determine compensation rates payable based on which division of FGW operated the train route in question thirteen years ago, I’m unable to conclude that GWR has not applied its policy correctly here.

swt_passenger · 9 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Worcester to Paddington on an HST is clearly not an ex-FGW Link route. The mere fact that the rolling stock is an HST and that there is a buffet etc. should tell them that!

Get back to them and ask them to review their decision, in view of the fact that FGW would, in fact, have operated such a service (it being an HST with far greater facilities than a Turbo).

Opinion dressed as fact, maybe? I’d be going with island’s explanation.

Mag_seven · 9 Jan 2019

island said:
Whilst it borders on the absurd that the delay compensation policy should determine compensation rates payable based on which division of FGW operated the train route in question thirteen years ago

It is absurd - just how much longer are GWR going to be allowed to milk this situation and not be forced onto "delay repay" like everybody else.

JB_B · 9 Jan 2019

island said:
FGW Link did indeed run Paddington-Didcot Parkway-Oxford-Hereford for the almost two years of its existence; it was inherited from Thames Trains (as was) before it and Wessex Trains were folded into FGW in April 2006.

Whilst it borders on the absurd that the delay compensation policy should determine compensation rates payable based on which division of FGW operated the train route in question thirteen years ago, I’m unable to conclude that GWR has not applied its policy correctly here.

I'm pretty sure that the traditional expresses on the Evesham route remained with FGW during the FGWL period ( although that it's true that the majority of services were FGWL ex Thames Trains). What that means for compensation now I don't know.

ForTheLoveOf · 9 Jan 2019

swt_passenger said:
Opinion dressed as fact, maybe? I’d be going with island’s explanation.

No, not opinion. Ask @SickyNicky and I am sure you will receive verification of this fact!

Tetchytyke · 9 Jan 2019

island said:
FGW Link did indeed run Paddington-Didcot Parkway-Oxford-Hereford for the almost two years of its existence; it was inherited from Thames Trains (as was) before it and Wessex Trains were folded into FGW in April 2006.

The Cotswold Line expresses were always separate to Wessex Trains (ex RR Central) services, and Thames Trains services, which became FGWL.

What I can't remember is if the FGW expresses were all moved to FGWL when the Adelantes began to be used.

It's certainly not a straightforward question! I'd say customer services were wrong, but not with any confidence.

Tetchytyke · 9 Jan 2019

Island is correct, some of the London-Cotswolds trains were FGWL. Question is whether all of them were, and what compensation arrangements should apply if some of them were FGW and some were FGWL.

CyrusWuff · 9 Jan 2019

To expand on island's answer:

The type of rolling stock used for a given service has absolutely zero bearing on what Charter Service Group applies. If it did, then you'd have Great Northern Inner services being reclassified as Outers when a 317 subbed for a 313 or, back during initial testing, West Anglia Inners being reclassified as Great Eastern Mainline ones when a 321 turned up instead of a 315!

In this particular case, FGW Link's franchise included a requirement to sublease five Class 180s from FGW for Cotswold Line services, so that the five Class 165/0s they were subleasing from Chiltern could be returned to Chiltern. The use of HSTs (and presumably bi-modes in future) is merely an evolution of this requirement.

Conveniently, Project Mapping have a 2004 FGW Link route map here: http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/FGW December 2004 On-Train .pdf (Linked from http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/greatwesterntrai.html if hotlinking isn't allowed)

Essentially, the determining factor is whether the train was routed via Oxford and Evesham or via Swindon and Cheltenham Spa. If the former, it would be classed as a former FGW Link service (thus falling within the "London Thames Valley" Charter Service Group), otherwise it would fall within the "High Speed" Charter Service Group.

JB_B · 9 Jan 2019

CyrusWuff said:
...
Conveniently, Project Mapping have a 2004 FGW Link route map here: http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/FGW December 2004 On-Train .pdf (Linked from http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/greatwesterntrai.html if hotlinking isn't allowed)

...

The map you link to only shows that FGWL ran services over the North Cotswold route (which isn't in question). Are you sure that FGW didn't also run some services over the same route during the FGWL era - I thought they did?

cactustwirly · 9 Jan 2019

JB_B said:
The map you link to only shows that FGWL ran services over the North Cotswold route (which isn't in question). Are you sure that FGW didn't also run some services over the same route during the FGWL era - I thought they did?

Yes they did, so both compensation schemes apply!
I had exactly this discussion a few weeks ago and it never got very far!
However I have a map of which compensation scheme applies where!

CyrusWuff · 9 Jan 2019

Well that's not at all confusing is it? Things are so much easier with GWR's "neighbour" (i.e. Chiltern) as they only have one Charter Service Group to choose from! (Though London to Oxford falls under the GWR scheme as it's an ORCATS raid on Chiltern's part).

Darandio · 9 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Worcester to Paddington on an HST is clearly not an ex-FGW Link route. The mere fact that the rolling stock is an HST and that there is a buffet etc. should tell them that!

Get back to them and ask them to review their decision, in view of the fact that FGW would, in fact, have operated such a service (it being an HST with far greater facilities than a Turbo).

Except it was. I'm not sure of the relevance in emphasising the use of an HST.

I'm sure we can all agree that the whole compensation situation at GWR has been very silly for quite some time and continues to be the case.

Tetchytyke · 9 Jan 2019

cactustwirly said:
However I have a map of which compensation scheme applies where!

And both apply on the Cotswold Line!

Kite159 · 9 Jan 2019

At least GWR might be finally be dragged into doing Delay Repay as the information posters on the Electrostars have something along the lines of "Delay Repay - coming soon, keep an eye out for further details" in the bottom right. Better than the current situation where money back varies due to which operator ran that service 13+ years ago.

cb00 · 9 Jan 2019

Thanks all. The complaint is with London Travelwatch but they simply contacted GWR who said they were correct to give only 50%. A previous claim was settled at 100% of the return ticket cost...

Since there doesn't appear to be a clear answer here and GWR's website simply uses the terminology "high speed service" (which applies to the HST, without the >2hr delay!), what would you recommend as the next step here?

Tetchytyke · 9 Jan 2019

If London Travelwatch can't make them budge, you'd be looking at a letter before action.

ForTheLoveOf · 9 Jan 2019

cb00 said:
Thanks all. The complaint is with London Travelwatch but they simply contacted GWR who said they were correct to give only 50%. A previous claim was settled at 100% of the return ticket cost...

Since there doesn't appear to be a clear answer here and GWR's website simply uses the terminology "high speed service" (which applies to the HST, without the >2hr delay!), what would you recommend as the next step here?

If you have escalated the matter fully within GWR and have not had any success through London Travelwatch, a Letter Before Action is the next step. I'm happy to have a look through any such letter you wish to send. There are templates online to get you started.

pdeaves · 9 Jan 2019

A leaflet I saw recently (it might have been cycles on trains, but maybe not) specifically spoke of 'former Wessex' and 'former Thames Trains' services. If there is good reason to keep the distinctions as far as the passenger is concerned (it doesn't matter to the public what internal divisions there are), there must be a better way of saying it.

cb00 · 9 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
If you have escalated the matter fully within GWR and have not had any success through London Travelwatch, a Letter Before Action is the next step. I'm happy to have a look through any such letter you wish to send. There are templates online to get you started.

Many thanks indeed for the offer.

The issue was referred to TW after receiving the same response twice from GWR, whether that counts as full escalation within GWR I'm not sure. TW simply asked GWR to determine whether the compensation was calculated correctly and GWR repeated what they'd previously said via email to me. If that means the process has been exhausted then I'll need to consider a letter of claim.

One thing - a family member had a successful claim for 100% of the return cost for a >2hr delay on the same journey and that case went via TravelWatch...

JonathanH · 9 Jan 2019

If you were going to split the services on the North Cotswold line between former First Great Western and former First Great Western Link, you would go back to the 2004 timetable - eg, one out and back trip from Paddington to Hereford and back shortly after the end of the morning peak and the two prime peak up and down services.

eg down services
1W01 1022 London Paddington to Hereford
1W02 1722 London Paddington to Hereford
1W03 1822 London Paddington to Hereford

and up services
1P12 0528 Hereford to London Paddington
1P18 0642 Hereford to London Paddington
1P39 1514 Hereford to London Paddington

Is there still a difference between the traincrew on these services (or perhaps a different group) and those on the other North Cotswold services (eg HSS Bristol / London drivers drive the services regarded as former FGW and LTV London / Reading / Oxford / Worcester drivers drive the services regarded as former FGWL)?

ForTheLoveOf · 9 Jan 2019

cb00 said:
Many thanks indeed for the offer.

The issue was referred to TW after receiving the same response twice from GWR, whether that counts as full escalation within GWR I'm not sure. TW simply asked GWR to determine whether the compensation was calculated correctly and GWR repeated what they'd previously said via email to me. If that means the process has been exhausted then I'll need to consider a letter of claim.

One thing - a family member had a successful claim for 100% of the return cost for a >2hr delay on the same journey and that case went via TravelWatch...

I think that's probably the best you're going to get, in that case. It's a shame TravelWatch haven't achieved anything more. Out of interest, was the journey before or after the 26th November 2018? If before, proceed as suggested - if after, you have the option of taking the matter to the Rail Ombudsman (as the Ombudsman came into effect for journeys from that date).

DelW · 10 Jan 2019

I'm not sure whether it's relevant or not, but the justification for considering Worcester services as being part of the London & Thames Valley group might include the fact that it was (is?) in the NSE card area.

When I had a NSE card (rather than a senior), that was always handy when visiting the Severn Valley, splitting tickets at Worcester reduced the cost considerably.

ForTheLoveOf · 10 Jan 2019

DelW said:
I'm not sure whether it's relevant or not, but the justification for considering Worcester services as being part of the London & Thames Valley group might include the fact that it was (is?) in the NSE card area.

When I had a NSE card (rather than a senior), that was always handy when visiting the Severn Valley, splitting tickets at Worcester reduced the cost considerably.

Travel within the Network Southeast area may still be on HSS group services, e.g. Paddington to Reading! It is true that many services were ex-FGWL, but ones scheduled to be operated with the facilities of an HST cannot be said to be ex-FGWL. FGWL simply wouldn't have scheduled any of their services to have such facilities (buffet etc.).

cactustwirly · 10 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Travel within the Network Southeast area may still be on HSS group services, e.g. Paddington to Reading! It is true that many services were ex-FGWL, but ones scheduled to be operated with the facilities of an HST cannot be said to be ex-FGWL.

That's all the Cotswolds line services, which are all booked for IETs, except for 1 or 2 turbo workings.
However back in 2006 all of the services were FGWL except the Hereford turns which were FGW(IC) HSTs

DelW · 10 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Travel within the Network Southeast area may still be on HSS group services, e.g. Paddington to Reading!

Indeed, as is shown on Cactustwirly's map attached earlier in the thread. For the Cotswold line, that implies that the compensation level is defined by where the train originated (Hereford or Worcester), which is presumably intended to relate to the type of service (local or express). I assume the situation would have been resolved long ago if the franchise had been re-let on schedule, but the DfT's habit of extending old franchises allows these anomalies to continue.

Tetchytyke · 10 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
FGWL simply wouldn't have scheduled any of their services to have such facilities (buffet etc.).

Some FGWL services, operated by Adelantes, did have those facilities.

andrewkeith5 · 10 Jan 2019

GWR have a pathetic delay compensation policy, and in addition will do as much as they can to avoid paying out on it.

The sooner they are forced to adopt a fairer Delay Repay compensation scheme that they talk their way out of, the better...

island · 10 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Travel within the Network Southeast area may still be on HSS group services, e.g. Paddington to Reading! It is true that many services were ex-FGWL, but ones scheduled to be operated with the facilities of an HST cannot be said to be ex-FGWL. FGWL simply wouldn't have scheduled any of their services to have such facilities (buffet etc.).

As had already been mentioned up thread, the company that operated a service in 2006 has nothing to do with the type of rolling stock used or facilities offered on that service in 2019, so I’m quite unsure why you keep repeating yourself.

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