jonesy3001
Established Member
Probably using what they can for training and 105 has got the carriages numbered,
look for a post here from the preston railway group from dave clarke.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/275299815977364/?ref=search
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates
- Thread starter BMIFlyer
- Start date
- Status
Probably using what they can for training and 105 has got the carriages numbered,
look for a post here from the preston railway group from dave clarke.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/275299815977364/?ref=search
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
superkev
Established Member
With all the various platform extensions going on around Northern land I'm puzzled as to why non of the Aire and Wharfedale lines seem to be included. Wasn't the plan to introduce 5 car 331s on these lines after Leeds Doncaster was done.
K
K
There's an option to extend the 331/1s to five car units.
xotGD
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2017
- Messages
- 6,087
The plan is to run 6 car 331 formations on (at least) the busiest services.
superkev
Established Member
But few platforms on the Aire and Wharfedale lines can take 6 cars.
K
quantinghome
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 2,264
They are planning to use selective door opening. This is going to be problematic, particularly for passengers leaving Leeds or Bradford in an evening.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's not problematic down South. Commuters will soon get used to it.
superkev
Established Member
Dosn't sound a good idea.
What an opportunity for a story for the usually low quality local press journalists. How about "Network rail deferrs north platform extentions so new trains dont fit".
Won't happen as most of them don't seem to be able to distinguish between a train and a bus.
K
Bantamzen
Established Member
Geninue question, what proportion of stations down south have shorter platforms than units using them would you say? On the Aire and Wharfe it will be most if 2*331 formations are used as planned including some of the busiest like Shipley.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Depends on the line. On the south WCML now very few if any. On the GWML, quite a lot.
There are even a few on the Tube.
AmateurRambler
Member
- Joined
- 16 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 76
I have heard that current thinking is that 12 4-car 331s will be temporarily based at Neville Hill, with the first arriving from April. Usual caveats etc.
Last edited:
xotGD
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2017
- Messages
- 6,087
Thanks. Should be more than enough to kill off the 321s and 322s and overcome the stock shortages. However, it will make no impression on the overcrowding in the peaks.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Indeed, if this does indeed turn out to be the case then unless NR & Northern can figure out how to add some extra paths, then the Aire & Wharfe valleys will continue to be rammed in the peaks (and quite a few off-peaks at some times during the year). It does sound like they are planning to try for more paths if they are replacing the 3 321s & 5 322s with 12 331s, or am I just being widely optimistic?
notlob.divad
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 1,609
12 of 4 car 331s would be all of them. Is this therefore linked to the new order of 3 DMUs for Windermere?
I (and I think others) made the assumption 4 car EMUs would be West of the Pennines on the Blackpool (and originally Windermere) Connect services. With the 3 Cars over on the East side. However if that would be reversed, with the additional rumour of the 323s staying, that could shake things up a bit.
I (and I think others) made the assumption 4 car EMUs would be West of the Pennines on the Blackpool (and originally Windermere) Connect services. With the 3 Cars over on the East side. However if that would be reversed, with the additional rumour of the 323s staying, that could shake things up a bit.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I think we all made that assumption. However, there is still no sign of any platform lengthening on the Aire valley stations, most of which would need it to accommodate 2*331 formations. It has been pointed out that SDO is an option, but maybe Northern are thinking twice about this in view of the proportion of the number of stations and of course the ongoing dispute with RMT.
notlob.divad
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 1,609
Are the platforms able to take 4x23m.
Equally are many of the western side platforms able to take 6x23m?
Bantamzen
Established Member
All the platforms on the Aire & Wharfe lines can take 4*23m, but some are only just long enough for this formation length.
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,509
If Neville Hill gain all 12 4 car 331s and retain the 16 333s this will provide an increase of 4 EMUs, which will allow some slack in the fleet as it's quite common for cancellations to occur in the peak due to unit shortages. Providing additional services must also be difficult with the single line sections near Apperley Junction and through Baildon as well the busy junctions around Shipley.
However it may mean some West side services can be run as 6 car 331s which would be welcome on the Bolton corridor
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
But that's an extra 6 metres over a 323, will they be able to fit in Salford Cresent?
notlob.divad
Established Member
- Joined
- 19 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 1,609
I thought a 323 and a 3car 331 are going to be about the same size.
Salford Crescent is 158 metres p1 and 153 metres p2 according to the pdf sectional appendix. So at 71.4metres for a 3 car 331 platform 2 at Salford Crescent should be able to fit them doubled up (6 car).
AmateurRambler
Member
- Joined
- 16 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 76
This was more than an assumption. Northern's stated plan was for there to be 16 (I think) 3-car 331s to be based at Neville Hill. These would have enabled replacement of 321/322s (including Doncaster services) and allow for some 6-car services to run between Leeds - Skipton.
Bantamzen
Established Member
I suspect a bit of extra capacity could be gained by stopping more Leeds-Skipton services at Apperley Bridge & both those and Leeds-Ilkley at Kirkstall Forge, meaning that they would be less likely to trip over the all stopper Leeds-Bradford FS. It wouldn't be popular slowing the Skipton services down (when Kirkstall Forge opened it was originally served by the Ilkley services so not as controversial), but sometimes they do trip over services anyway and its not unusual for them along with the other Aire & Wharfe services to end up queuing outside Leeds. So maybe it might help punctuality.
However outside of the peaks there probably isn't quite enough demand for additional services on these just yet, and some additional capacity will be made available from Bradford & Shipley once / if the LNER 2-hourly services commence. But in the peaks an extra couple of services might be possible before the current additional services. The single line section up to Guiseley does present a challenge but it is just about possible to thread extra services through it. I don't envisage any need for extra Bradford-Ilkley services, so the Baildon section would remain the same. Of course there are still the Carlisle / Morecombe services to consider, though someone did suggest combining these at Leeds and splitting up route, so maybe this could be a possibility, and of course the freight services.
So it would be a tight squeeze, but there are additional Leeds-Skipton & Leeds-Skipton runs in the high peaks so it can be done & a couple more runs of each would help offer the capacity lost with not running the 2* 3 car 331s.
Yes, I do remember that now. However I think these days to assume that any plans initially made will happen exactly as stated is being overly optimistic. So until plans actually start to come into play, its probably safer to keep them as assumptions.
DJH1971
Established Member
TheGrew
Member
- Joined
- 31 Jul 2012
- Messages
- 334
Just to back this up I regularly get a 6 car 185 formation (for those interested http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y50873/2019/01/17/advanced ) from Salford Crescent, it does fit the platform but takes up the entire length.
Until a couple of years ago (although now seems a lifetime ago), we used to regularly have 6-car 185s on Bolton corridor.
Never noted any issues, including at Salford Crescent.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
A 185 & 323 have 23m carriages so are both 3 meters shorter than a 3 car 331.
Nymanic
Member
Class 185: 71.276m
Class 323: 70.18m
Class 195/1 (and 331/0): 71.402m
The length differences aren't that substantial. The 195s and 331s have end cars in the region of 24m; intermediate ones are around 23.4m.
Even a pair of 331s is less than 3m longer than 2x323 - and less than half a metre longer than 2x185.
Nymanic
Member
Some unrelated musings:
It's speculated that all twelve 331/1s are now heading to Neville Hill. Is this a straight swap for the 16 x 331/0s originally due to go there, since the number of carriages (48) is the same?
The extra units in the NW would be nice, but it's only really the MIA-Blackpool connect service that could really make use of doubled-up 331s.
That said, I doubt that Northern will be particularly forthcoming to WY passengers about the capacity reduction, since a 331/1 has about 80 fewer seats than a 333...
(I'm still concerned about services to Glossop/Crewe/Stoke - if 331/0s replace 323s, that's a seating drop of 80 - more than a quarter. It could attract negative publicity, and come under noticeable pressure in the peaks)
It's speculated that all twelve 331/1s are now heading to Neville Hill. Is this a straight swap for the 16 x 331/0s originally due to go there, since the number of carriages (48) is the same?
The extra units in the NW would be nice, but it's only really the MIA-Blackpool connect service that could really make use of doubled-up 331s.
That said, I doubt that Northern will be particularly forthcoming to WY passengers about the capacity reduction, since a 331/1 has about 80 fewer seats than a 333...
(I'm still concerned about services to Glossop/Crewe/Stoke - if 331/0s replace 323s, that's a seating drop of 80 - more than a quarter. It could attract negative publicity, and come under noticeable pressure in the peaks)
Last edited:
- Status