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Clapham Junction Sun 13th Jan 2019

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RJ

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The SWML and BML are both closed through Clapham Junction this Sunday with two massive rail replacement operations in place.

This happens every so often but every time it does, it's as if it's the first ever time the a closure has happened. The station becomes a complete and utter maelstrom with seemingly no cross TOC co-ordination to aid with the redirection of passengers. Within the station, there are usually signs sending people to Grant Road for "replacement buses" with no mention that the Southern replacement services leave from the other side of the station on St Johns Hill. This adds to congestion in the subway. Simple signs acknowledging both TOCs and regular announcments may help.

There's very little, if any crowd control for the hundreds of people who find themselves on either side of the station attempting to find their rail replacement service. Extra staff to marshall people and assist them to get to the right side of the station to reduce the number of transfers across the subway may help.

On the Grant Road side, SWR don't normally supply the rail replacement buses with any destination boards - there's the situation of having 20+ replacement buses per hour arriving to pick people up with no indication of where they are going, unless the contractor has made up their own displays. This causes delays whilst staff battle through the crowds to ask the driver where they are going. Southern do consistently display bright yellow A3 or A2 boards in the windscreens, which at least helps staff and passengers identify which service it is. A similar initiative by SWR may help to aid staff and improve passenger flow. Same goes at Wimbledon.

It's usually a stressful occasion for station staff and passengers alike and requires proper management.

Given this is all 100% predictable based on past events, will Network Rail, the station operator and the TOCs coordinate this time around to prevent "Britain's busiest railway station" from becoming an H&S nightmare as a result of planned engineering works?
 
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jamesst

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Up in Merseyrail land the bus digital displays generally always show rail replacement and the destination. (aswell as a train picture!). I'm always amazed elsewhere at the poor information provided in times of bus replacements esp on the buses themselves
 

ANDREW_D_WEBB

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Grant Road is also not suitable for 20+ rail replacement buses (plus a regular TfL route) so frequent gridlock occurs.
 

RJ

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Grant Road is also not suitable for 20+ rail replacement buses (plus a regular TfL route) so frequent gridlock occurs.

Whilst that is true, it has to be done. To be fair the rail replacement schedules usually have buses going in and straight back out of Clapham Junction which helps a little.
 

Railcar

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Does Clapham Junction have a station manager at weekends? Someone with the authority to acknowledge that there is a problem and do something about it?
If there is such a person, where is their office?
 

Deepgreen

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Is it thought to be better to tackle both routes together or separately? The concept of meaningful (i.e. helpful to passengers!) liaison between NR and TOCs is alien - in these circumstances there appears to be no incentive to coordinate and for each to simply blame either each and/or NR for any problems.
 

nw1

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Happens probably 4 or 5 times every year in my experience. Hence RJ’s original point about it seeming to take them by surprise every time.

The annoying thing about when they go via Staines is not so much the act of going through Staines, but more that they don't tweak the 'normal' Staines line services enough to give at least some of the diverted long-distance services a clearer path - meaning that every time I've done a diverted Waterloo-SOU that way, it flies to Barnes due to the 4-track, but then crawls all the way to Byfleet and New Haw as it gets stuck behind one or more stoppers. Just about every time it catches a stopper up somewhere just beyond Barnes.

Would probably enjoy the diversion as the chance to see a different route if only this didn't happen, but 30mph running and constant signal stops is no fun!
 
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30907

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I assumed, with the recent Battersea Pier work in mind, that the massive operation RJ refers to, involved trains on the Brighton side terminating at CLJ and disgorging their hordes. Indeed, that's what the NR engineering works page implies.
In fact the RRBs are running through from Victoria to Streatham Hill/East Croydon, which seems unusual, but will presumably take some of the pressure off CLJ. I assume there is additional work going on somewhere.
 

cjohnson

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How did it all go today.. saw this photo doing the rounds on Twitter showing an example of the helpful signage provided to passengers...
DwzFNURXgAIsrTH.jpg:large
 

JonathanH

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The annoying thing about when they go via Staines is not so much the act of going through Staines, but more that they don't tweak the 'normal' Staines line services enough to give at least some of the diverted long-distance services a clearer path - meaning that every time I've done a diverted Waterloo-SOU that way, it flies to Barnes due to the 4-track, but then crawls all the way to Byfleet and New Haw as it gets stuck behind one or more stoppers. Just about every time it catches a stopper up somewhere just beyond Barnes.

Would probably enjoy the diversion as the chance to see a different route if only this didn't happen, but 30mph running and constant signal stops is no fun!

I think you will find that they *do* tweak the Windsor lines services when the mainline service is diverted via Staines.

The fact is that to serve the stations on the London side of Staines there aren't clear paths for the fast services to go any quicker than they do.

Down timetable today

1003 Portsmouth (via Richmond)
1012 Weymouth (via Richmond)

1014 Ascot (via Richmond)
1019 Windsor (via Richmond)
1025 Poole (via Hounslow)
1026 Shepperton (via Richmond)
1042 Portsmouth (via Richmond)
1044 Ascot (via Richmond)
1046 Shepperton (via Richmond)
1054 Windsor (via Hounslow)

Normal timetable on the Windsor side is this

1009 Reading (via Richmond)
1014 Kingston (via Richmond)
1025 Windsor (via Richmond)
1039 Reading (via Richmond)
1044 Windsor (via Richmond)
1050 Woking (via Hounslow)

So, effectively it is all rearranged - the slow Windsor ran to Shepperton, the Hounslow loop service ran to Windsor and there is less gap between the trains stopping via Richmond. Whitton and the stations on the Hounslow route get 1tph.

Interesting that Portsmouth trains maintain the service at Chertsey and Addlestone rather than these stations getting bus replacement now.

More up trains go via Hounslow than down ones for obvious conflict reasons.
 

londonboi198o5

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How did it all go today.. saw this photo doing the rounds on Twitter showing an example of the helpful signage provided to passengers...
DwzFNURXgAIsrTH.jpg:large

Well the arrow pointing to the right is for southern replacement bus services
The arrow pointing to the left is for SWR services.
Seems pretty straight forward to me and makes it easier to know which exit to go to for the correct replacement bus service rather than al going from the same place
 

RJ

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RJ

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Well the arrow pointing to the right is for southern replacement bus services
The arrow pointing to the left is for SWR services.
Seems pretty straight forward to me and makes it easier to know which exit to go to for the correct replacement bus service rather than al going from the same place

That's fine for enthusiasts with an encyclopedic knowledge of all the operators, lines, service patterns etc. Not everybody passing through Clapham Junction has that and not everybody is equally proficient at making inferences from vague, generic, ambiguous, conflicting bits of information.
 
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theking

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That's fine for enthusiasts with an encyclopedic knowledge of all the operators, lines, service patterns etc. Not everybody passing through Clapham Junction has that and not everybody is equally proficient at making inferences from vague, generic, ambiguous, conflicting bits of information.

You hardly need "encyclopedic knowledge" or to be an "enthusiast" to know which TOC you are travelling on and in turn to follow the correct arrow.

But then again thinking for yourself goes against the current liberal agenda of spoon feeding everything to everybody.

I suppose you expect the toc to have enough members of staff to personally escort each and every passenger to the replacement bus.
 

whoosh

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No one needs "spoon feeding", just a list of some destinations served on each poster.

-And the posters swapped around as well, would be clearer.
Think London Underground signage at the bottom of their stairs - that was all designed to speed up passengers. It could all be done so much better. That photo above looks like a typical own goal that the industry whacks in the back of their own net on a regular basis.
 

embers25

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You hardly need "encyclopedic knowledge" or to be an "enthusiast" to know which TOC you are travelling on and in turn to follow the correct arrow.

But then again thinking for yourself goes against the current liberal agenda of spoon feeding everything to everybody.

I suppose you expect the toc to have enough members of staff to personally escort each and every passenger to the replacement bus.

Most travellers have no clue which operator they are travelling with and couldn't care less. Old people still line boarding their "British Rail" train and many still believe that XC is Virgin as "only Virgin operate Voyagers". Virgin East and West Coast always got confused as do GWR and SWR in Exeter. The situation is further confused by bus areas having no rail staff just bus staff and supervisors in operator uniforms. So you can get a train run by Arriva being replaced by a bus managed by First and run by Stagecoach and so you could be travelling Arriva and only see Stagecoach uniforms.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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How did it all go today.. saw this photo doing the rounds on Twitter showing an example of the helpful signage provided to passengers...
DwzFNURXgAIsrTH.jpg:large
I'm rather amused to see they're threatening a Penalty Fare or prosecution for passengers on RRBs (neither of which, legally speaking, would hold up in Court IMO). Ticketing is probably the least of the operator's worries on a day like that!
 

Robertj21a

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You hardly need "encyclopedic knowledge" or to be an "enthusiast" to know which TOC you are travelling on and in turn to follow the correct arrow.

But then again thinking for yourself goes against the current liberal agenda of spoon feeding everything to everybody.

I suppose you expect the toc to have enough members of staff to personally escort each and every passenger to the replacement bus.


Sorry, that's not very accurate. I doubt that a majority of passengers know which TOC operates their trains, they simply want to go from A to B. A list of key stations would be far more useful to most passengers.
 

nlogax

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I'm rather amused to see they're threatening a Penalty Fare or prosecution for passengers on RRBs (neither of which, legally speaking, would hold up in Court IMO). Ticketing is probably the least of the operator's worries on a day like that!

Talking of which, has anyone here been asked to show a ticket when boarding or using a RRB? In all my years using SWT and now SWR replacement buses I don't recall it ever happening.
 

Kite159

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Talking of which, has anyone here been asked to show a ticket when boarding or using a RRB? In all my years using SWT and now SWR replacement buses I don't recall it ever happening.

Once when boarding a Northern rail replacement bus at Preston when the Bolton line was closed.

And also once when boarding a SWR replacement bus at Basingstoke, but that was more with staff ensuring folk boarded the correct bus (and someone wanting Overton didn't end up on the fast to Andover bus)
 

Mojo

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You hardly need "encyclopedic knowledge" or to be an "enthusiast" to know which TOC you are travelling on and in turn to follow the correct arrow.
If the signs said, this way for "Southern Rail Replacement buses to..." and that way for "South Western Replacement buses to..." that would be one thing, but the signs didn't refer to the Tocs other than using their house colour scheme and respective logos.

As it stands, it makes the railway industry look idiotic and incompetent, because it is seem as providing conflicting information.
 

Antman

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Talking of which, has anyone here been asked to show a ticket when boarding or using a RRB? In all my years using SWT and now SWR replacement buses I don't recall it ever happening.

Never, passengers are just ushered onboard and anybody asking about tickets is told to get one at their destination or wherever train services resume.
 

alistairlees

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If the signs said, this way for "Southern Rail Replacement buses to..." and that way for "South Western Replacement buses to..." that would be one thing, but the signs didn't refer to the Tocs other than using their house colour scheme and respective logos.

As it stands, it makes the railway industry look idiotic and incompetent, because it is seem as providing conflicting information.
Correct. The branding / TOC name is a secondary consideration for people largely using walk up and go trains as in Clapham Junction. Where the customer is going, or where the train is going, are the key pieces of information required. The TOCs should do joint signs and joint co-ordination.
 
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The TOCs should do joint signs and joint co-ordination.
Agree entirely, and this should apply to all stations with multiple operators. Having worked at one shared by SWT (as then) and Southern, the engineering posters were separate, and in different parts of the station, implying to some that only one TOC's services were affected at a given time. I can assure you that most passengers care nothing about which operator they use, and are not interested in finding out. I resorted to the level of explaining the different colours of the respective trains on may occasions. And don't mention ticketing complexities.....
 

RJ

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Never, passengers are just ushered onboard and anybody asking about tickets is told to get one at their destination or wherever train services resume.

That's not always the case. On a previous closure ticket inspectors got on board the bus and were checking tickets between Raynes Park and Worcester Park and tickets were checked on the Newbury Park to Southend route.
 
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