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Trivia - Obsolete Railway Terms still used

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Tio Terry

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Meerkat said:
Why change up and down?
Because it is not clear and requires more route knowledge to understand.
However.......I don’t know how to consistently improve it....
Up and down works with London to an extent, but do northerners think “going down to London”?
London-bound is clearer, but longer, and what would the opposite be - “country bound” or “Exeter bound”, “Bristol bound” etc.
Some lines have clear north/south/east/west bound directions......but some less direct lines could get a bit scruffy on that.
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Always Up to London, or the principle destination. Spent 53 years working on the railway and never had any problem with understanding that.

Yes, there are some abnormalities, the lines from Great Yarmouth, Cromer and Lowestoft to Norwich are Up until they get to Thorpe Junction at Norwich when they become Down for the final bit in to the platforms because the lines from London form the Down. It's no great problem to Railwaymen, sorry, Railpersons.
 
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Tomnick

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6Gman said:
I think it's important to remember that the descriptors are used to designate and identify the sections of track, rather than any train that happens to use them. There are plenty of bi-directional Up Lines, and Down Lines.
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You can, of course, still use them to describe the direction of a train movement - e.g. “in the Up direction” - to avoid confusion.

As a general response to the suggestion that we need something better - we don’t. It’s hardly a burden to memorise which way’s which as part of learning a route, and the convention used throughout the Sectional Appendix means that it’s easy enough to check if you’re not sure. It’s certainly easier than trying to work out if you’re heading east or north or west in a particularly complex area, which isn’t something that you’d necessarily know nor something that’s necessarily represented accurately on important documents and diagrams.
 
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6Gman

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Tomnick said:
You can, of course, still use them to describe the direction of a train movement - e.g. “in the Up direction” - to avoid confusion.

As a general response to the suggestion that we need something better - we don’t. It’s hardly a burden to memorise which way’s which as part of learning a route, and the convention used throughout the Sectional Appendix means that it’s easy enough to check if you’re not sure. It’s certainly easier than trying to work out if you’re heading east or north or west in a particularly complex area, which isn’t something that you’d necessarily know nor something that’s necessarily represented accurately on important documents and diagrams.
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That last point is a very good one - not sure if it's any different now but in my father's time notification of track/signalling changes would be diagrammatic rather than geographical. Up & Down would be easily understood; N, E, S & W less so.
 
alxndr

alxndr

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6Gman said:
That last point is a very good one - not sure if it's any different now but in my father's time notification of track/signalling changes would be diagrammatic rather than geographical. Up & Down would be easily understood; N, E, S & W less so.
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Still the case in my experience.
 
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Tomnick

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6Gman said:
That last point is a very good one - not sure if it's any different now but in my father's time notification of track/signalling changes would be diagrammatic rather than geographical. Up & Down would be easily understood; N, E, S & W less so.
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It’s not necessarily just about changes either. A driver might have enough of a sense of direction to work out which direction he’s heading, but the signalman’s representation of the trainset is unlikely to bear any resemblance, so it’s likely to introduce confusion in, e.g., an emergency situation too.

There is a place for it - it’s certainly still common to hear points of the compass when asking for or giving instructions relating to shunt moves around stations (e.g. draw down to the west, split one off the east end, bring it over the north crossover etc.) but it’s generally not official terminology and it’s not much use away from those very specific applications where everyone involved knows what’s being referred to.
 
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philthetube

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Any term with Man in it is obsolete.

The confusion with up/down is that most (non railway) people would go up north or down south, not that that means it needs changing.
 
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talltim

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6Gman said:
Exactly. Whatever problems there may be with Up and Down (and I'm not convinced there are any significant issues within the industry) the alternatives all seem worse.

In particular Up and Down are brief and distinct. Northbound and Southbound are longer and share letters which could cause confusion. (Same applies to East and West)

Further, the compass points are widely used in other ways e.g. to name junctions.

Up Line at Coleshill West Junction or Down Line at Coleshill East Junction are clearer than Eastbound at Coleshill West Jn or Westbound at Coleshill East Jn.
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Easy solution, just bi-di them all ;)
 
delt1c

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Permanent Way. That was Permanently changed with Beeching 8-)
 
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AndrewE

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delt1c said:
Permanent Way. That was Permanently changed with Beeching 8-)
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That's not very accurate. I agree he did a lot of damage by reducing the network in the way he did, but lots had already been cut by the Big 4, and both colour governments carried on cutting afterwards.
 
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Calthrop

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I might be being literal in a humour-challenged way here -- but does not the expression "permanent way" originate from the earliest days of railways; and refer to the track on the route on which trains are to run regularly and for a substantial period; as opposed to "temporary way": ephemeral short sidings / spurs / construction tracks?
 
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83G/84D

83G/84D

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ArchieWoodbine said:
I suppose you could argue it's dated, but isn't Pilotman still an official term, though? If I recall that's how the positon is referred to in the rule book (whereas signalman is now signaller etc.)
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Pilot person doesn’t sound right plus all the forms and armbands would need changing!
 
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weastebusdepot

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Not sure if it's a nationwide term, but about four years ago I spent a month at a fairly large station which wasn't open round the clock and closed overnight when there were no services running. The 'last man' was the term used to describe the member of station staff on late turn who dispatched the last trains then locked the doors and went home. This was done on a rota basis, and it struck me as a little bizarre when a female member of staff would say "I'm last man tomorrow night".
 
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LAX54

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tsr said:
“Q” moves are scheduled timings which are pre-planned but not always used every time - in other words, in this case they are spare ECS timings available for use as required.

A train in a “Q” path may run once a week or so, or once in a blue moon. It very much depends on maintenance needs when you’re talking about ECS moves of passenger stock.

Often TOC Controls have lengthy discussions, otherwise known as “faffing”, about which drivers to use for things like “night Qs” or how to make use of their time in the most complicated way known to mankind. I am always entertained by observing the deliberations over such matters on an otherwise quiet evening.
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And of course a 'Q' path / schedule has no connection at all with 'Q' headcode train, which denotes 'must not be taken off booked path'
 
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LAX54

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83G/84D said:
Driver “on the cushions” ie travelling as a passenger to pick up his working. “Footplate swap”still gets mentioned during times of disruption. Swapping of drivers between trains at a place other than a usual one usually when services are affected by an incident.
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We still do footplate swaps most days with FL and GB traffic in our area :) and of course some are exactly that, they will stop loco next to loco and step across :)_
 
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LAX54

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Tio Terry said:
Always Up to London, or the principle destination. Spent 53 years working on the railway and never had any problem with understanding that.

Yes, there are some abnormalities, the lines from Great Yarmouth, Cromer and Lowestoft to Norwich are Up until they get to Thorpe Junction at Norwich when they become Down for the final bit in to the platforms because the lines from London form the Down. It's no great problem to Railwaymen, sorry, Railpersons.
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When I went to Signalling School (Beckenham Jct) was told always 'UP' to London, and 'DOWN' away from London, except in Scotland, where it was 'UP' to Edinburgh, yes there are some lines that are at odds with this, Haughley towards Cambridge is 'UP' and towards Haughley 'DOWN', based on the original railway layout, and it's also why the mileage changes at Trowse Junction from Diss CO549 signal is 112 miles from London, and CO557 is 123 miles from London!

the lines from Thorpe Junction to Stn go from Up / Down to... A to W .... B: Down Main. C: Up Main. B: Up Lowestoft A: Down Lowestoft, then they all at Thorpe J to E / C and W
 
anamyd

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sw1ller said:
I’m still hearing “Arriva” instead of TfW, mainly by my boss to be fair!
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My local station apparently has CCTV in operation by both Keolis Amey Operations and Arriva Trains Wales, according to the two different signs that result from one not having been swapped out.
 
anamyd

anamyd

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Old Yard Dog said:
Why is class 153 referred to as a DMU when there is nothing "multiple" about it (unless coupled to another 153 or 150 or 156)? Surely it should be just a DU?
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In passenger service, 153s can work in multiple not just within class and with classes 150 and 156, but also at least with classes 155, 158 and 170, and Pacers (142s/143s at least).

Of course, when a 153 is joined onto both a 158/170 (especially 170) and a Pacer, that formation can only run ECS... same as if the 153 wasn't joined on to it.
 
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swaldman

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cool110 said:
It has everything to do with students, before 1980 it was for them only (the Student Railcard name lasting until 1982) and mature students are still eligible for them now.
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True enough - I gave up my last one aged 37!
 
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Tomnick

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tsr said:
You say that, but ESW was used yesterday in at least a couple of places just within the south of England alone...
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You won’t see a handsignalman though - that’s the whole point of ESW!
 
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