Fine, provided the TOC actually does something about it. Most recent incident - reported a smashed screen on a ticket machine on Sunday (15:00), showed conductor picture of screen next day (about 09:30) - he was unaware of damage. Not the first time by some way.
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People's attitude to buying tickets.
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Mutant Lemming
Established Member
There are plenty of reasons why you CAN'T buy the ticket you require from a machine -
(i it's not working
(ii it doesn't accept cash
(iii it won't accept a card
(iv you require a ticket it doesn't sell
(v it refuses the cash you do have (keeps spewing out notes/coins offered)
- now maybe the wily fare dodger will be aware of these but whether they are or aren't it is the responsibility of the railway to prove otherwise not to treat people trying to travel on the service they are supposed to provide as some would be criminal. People often compare fraudulent travel to not paying for stuff in a supermarket but what supermarket would ever stop people from entering because they think people may be shoplifters based on the fact that they are unable to pay for as yet unspecified goods before they have been given the ability to pay for them ?
(i it's not working
(ii it doesn't accept cash
(iii it won't accept a card
(iv you require a ticket it doesn't sell
(v it refuses the cash you do have (keeps spewing out notes/coins offered)
- now maybe the wily fare dodger will be aware of these but whether they are or aren't it is the responsibility of the railway to prove otherwise not to treat people trying to travel on the service they are supposed to provide as some would be criminal. People often compare fraudulent travel to not paying for stuff in a supermarket but what supermarket would ever stop people from entering because they think people may be shoplifters based on the fact that they are unable to pay for as yet unspecified goods before they have been given the ability to pay for them ?
I am always sceptical when I hear high fares as a justification for fare dodging – even if their daily commute was half the price I bet most dodgers would still make the same claim. I accept some people in very poorly paid jobs or on benefits find their travel costs eat up goodly portion of their income. More should be done to help – following the lead of the Jobseekers Oyster card.
For example
- Anyone on a benefit automatically offered a concessionary railcard (named card with photograph, ideally linking to other photocard databases such as passport/driving license ) . A nominal charge of say £1 per month deducted at source. A more generous concession - 50% of peak and 66% discount off-peak. Minimum single fare say £2. 50% discount on season tickets.
- Extend the same terms to the 16-25 Railcard. Reduce the annual charge to say £15. Allow employers or charities to buy the card on behalf of youngsters tax free.
For the rest of us, my view is that avoiding your fare – especially pay-when-challenged is not primarily financially motivated at all. Getting away with it is seen as a small victory in a life of daily minor disappointments – rather like finding a £5 note on the pavement. It makes up for all the other things that didn’t go your way since you last woke up. Fare dodgers, queue jumpers and tax cheats all think they are smarter than the average bear – in their view it’s only the mugs that play the game.
For example
- Anyone on a benefit automatically offered a concessionary railcard (named card with photograph, ideally linking to other photocard databases such as passport/driving license ) . A nominal charge of say £1 per month deducted at source. A more generous concession - 50% of peak and 66% discount off-peak. Minimum single fare say £2. 50% discount on season tickets.
- Extend the same terms to the 16-25 Railcard. Reduce the annual charge to say £15. Allow employers or charities to buy the card on behalf of youngsters tax free.
For the rest of us, my view is that avoiding your fare – especially pay-when-challenged is not primarily financially motivated at all. Getting away with it is seen as a small victory in a life of daily minor disappointments – rather like finding a £5 note on the pavement. It makes up for all the other things that didn’t go your way since you last woke up. Fare dodgers, queue jumpers and tax cheats all think they are smarter than the average bear – in their view it’s only the mugs that play the game.
I agree. It is about getting something for nothing.
If I were on minimum wage and it cost a significant portion of my salary to travel to work, I would look into changing jobs to one feasibly accessible by bicycle.
If you don't like the Lamborghini analogy, change it to stealing food from a supermarket or small shop. Nutritious food can be expensive for someone on a minimum wage.
BanburyBlue
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I do wonder.
Just because you are poor, doesn't mean you are dishonest.
I do think with some people, that they have a strange mindset that fare dodging is okay but wouldn't dream of stealing a Mars Bar. Somehow compartmentalise the two. One is okay, one is dishonest.
Just because you are poor, doesn't mean you are dishonest.
I do think with some people, that they have a strange mindset that fare dodging is okay but wouldn't dream of stealing a Mars Bar. Somehow compartmentalise the two. One is okay, one is dishonest.
I had occasion to raise this with a group of children recently in a discussion on morality (as part of a religious class).
One of the views raised was that “the train’s running anyway, it’s not costing them more to pay for carrying another passenger”.
One of the views raised was that “the train’s running anyway, it’s not costing them more to pay for carrying another passenger”.
tsr
Established Member
This really leads to more questions than it answers, but unfortunately nobody will usually take responsibility for that...
For starters, it’s always an uncomfortable question to ask who, then, is the passenger on that train that must pay for everyone else...
Another is to ask the question of whether, if you were the passenger who would have tipped the balance in favour of continuing to run the service, why did you not become a positive addition to the tally of those paying their fare and therefore “officially” travelling?
I can think of at least one or two services discontinued through low statistical usage, when the volume of actual passengers onboard was best described as “somewhat higher”.
This is a myth - nutritous food doesnt have to be expensive even if you are on minimum wage
59p for a pineapple? now I hate the things but thats a couple of days breakfast right there along with the other fruits showing on that page.
People need educating on food not these false claims that everythings expensive
This needs emphasising. A lot of those on limited incomes would not dream of doing anything illegal.
(Thank you for reminding us!)
Quite easy to challenge that one. Firstly, every extra passenger equates to extra weight that has to be transported, which consumes more fuel/electricity. Secondly, the rail infrastructure only exists because there is a demand for rail travel, and that infrastructure had to be built and has to maintained with financial cost. Thirdly, when demand gets high enough, more routes are built (e.g. HS2, Crossrail), and more trains are purchased which costs money.
You can't live on pineapples. Try decent cuts of meat and fresh vegetables, you'll probably find it is cheaper and easier to get a crappy cheap ready meal loaded with additives and salt.
The UK is an expensive country to live, regardless of what you might think or want to be true. This is one reason why places such as India can pay their staff a fraction of what the equivalent staff would be paid in the UK, and hence why much of our industry has been exported.
Harlequin
Member
Absolutely this. I frequently travel from either Bournemouth or Swanwick to my home station in Liss, which often involves a stopping service from Southampton Central to Havant.
Came across this article a few months back: https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/our-re...mpshire-s-least-used-train-stations-1-8594793
The number of passengers on these (unbarriered) station platforms is in no way reflective of the figures they're setting out, and it's probably because of how easy it is to travel without a ticket. I've only once seen anybody given as much as a Penalty Fare, and it is similarly rare for tickets to be checked at all. Even when they are, the opportunity to purchase is always given by the Guard. On the one occasion I did board without a ticket owing to a late arrival at Swanwick, I immediately sought out the Guard who allowed me to buy a ticket from her, before sitting down to play Pokemon Go. It can feel like you're being too honest for your own good, especially when the rare ticket checks do take place and you realise that you're one of only about 10% of passengers who's purchased before boarding and nobody who's enjoying a free ride is going to end up paying any more than you.
methethpropbut
Member
Ah, but if you don't pay for it, they might decide not to run it in the future.
I dont think youll find that I said you could live off a pineapple did i? Again you are peddling myths and ive mentioned this in other threads so possibly doesnt need repeating again - its the not knowing how to cook with whats provided which is the problem - Aldi/Lidl sell decent meat at a decent price along with their cruit and veg so you can eat healthily should you wish too - many choose not too.
Last year I was passing the local supermarket when I saw a great offer on pineapples in the window for 59p, so I went in to buy one. And that was when my troubles started ...
Firstly there were no manned checkouts, a notice said that due to economies they only employed cashiers on Thursday and Friday evenings when they were busiest and please use the self-service tills. But most of these were out of order, and when I finally found one which was working it had a long queue. When I reached the head of the queue ten minutes later, I then found I couldn't pay my 59p in cash, I had to use a credit or debit card. Fortunately I did have a valid card with me, but when I tried to read the bar code on the pineapple it was all wrinkled and wouldn't scan, and the queue behind me was getting restive.
So I walked out with my pineapple without paying, but a shifty-looking guy at the door showed me a badge saying he was a revenue protection officer for the supermarket and that he'd seen me wilfully steal the pineapple. All my explanations fell on deaf ears - he explained that if you couldn't read the bar code on a pineapple you should buy a Mars Bar, then take it to the big store in town where they would exchange it for a pineapple, and all shoppers should be perfectly aware of this. Then he cut me a deal - if I gave him £80 in used notes he wouldn't get the police and the possibility of a prison sentence. What choice did I have - I gave him the £80 which he stuffed in a grubby pocket and said he hoped I'd have a nice day.
Need less to say the supermarket shut down not longer after, blaming dishonest customers. I can get a Mars Bar pretty much anywhere locally, but nowhere sells pineapples now.
Of course that story's not true as no retail organisation would treat their customers with such disdain and dishonesty, not unless they've bought some kind of franchise which gives them a monopoly!
Firstly there were no manned checkouts, a notice said that due to economies they only employed cashiers on Thursday and Friday evenings when they were busiest and please use the self-service tills. But most of these were out of order, and when I finally found one which was working it had a long queue. When I reached the head of the queue ten minutes later, I then found I couldn't pay my 59p in cash, I had to use a credit or debit card. Fortunately I did have a valid card with me, but when I tried to read the bar code on the pineapple it was all wrinkled and wouldn't scan, and the queue behind me was getting restive.
So I walked out with my pineapple without paying, but a shifty-looking guy at the door showed me a badge saying he was a revenue protection officer for the supermarket and that he'd seen me wilfully steal the pineapple. All my explanations fell on deaf ears - he explained that if you couldn't read the bar code on a pineapple you should buy a Mars Bar, then take it to the big store in town where they would exchange it for a pineapple, and all shoppers should be perfectly aware of this. Then he cut me a deal - if I gave him £80 in used notes he wouldn't get the police and the possibility of a prison sentence. What choice did I have - I gave him the £80 which he stuffed in a grubby pocket and said he hoped I'd have a nice day.
Need less to say the supermarket shut down not longer after, blaming dishonest customers. I can get a Mars Bar pretty much anywhere locally, but nowhere sells pineapples now.
Of course that story's not true as no retail organisation would treat their customers with such disdain and dishonesty, not unless they've bought some kind of franchise which gives them a monopoly!
Killingworth
Established Member
It's all animal nature, I'm afraid. I originally typed human but it's the animal that gets conditioned to getting what it wants as easily as possible, no matter what.
The hill walker parks the car as near as possible to their chosen 15 mile walk, half blocking the road, no matter that there are plenty of formal parking spaces nearby - but they're pay and display. I noticed what seemed to be a full large car park by the Nottingham tram system. Not so. Cars double parked in the car park nearest the tram stop, plenty of space at the far side - nothing to do with cost.
Some regular rail users play the system. It's little to do with poverty. They do it because they can. My fare into Sheffield will be under £2. Catch a TPE or East Midlands commuting service and the conductor is unlikely to even try to get down the train. No barriers at Sheffield as back up, so who knows how many travel free? Same goes in reverse in that short distance.
The Northern service needs a little more skill. The conductors may check one of two Pacer carriages if not too full, but often not the front coach, so choose the front for the best chance of escaping ticket inspection. (When two units are operated the front unit is often totally unchecked after the barrier at Piccadilly to ungated Sheffield and vice versa.)
Many fellow passengers aren't playing the game. They're making it harder by using the TVM or having electronic tickets so trains are being checked quicker! However some conductors are not as diligent as others so it still goes on. Why more penalties haven't been applied previously is something only the TOCs can explain.
Since the TVM has arrived, even though it's often out of order, passenger numbers have risen faster than at any other station on our line. Coincidence?
The hill walker parks the car as near as possible to their chosen 15 mile walk, half blocking the road, no matter that there are plenty of formal parking spaces nearby - but they're pay and display. I noticed what seemed to be a full large car park by the Nottingham tram system. Not so. Cars double parked in the car park nearest the tram stop, plenty of space at the far side - nothing to do with cost.
Some regular rail users play the system. It's little to do with poverty. They do it because they can. My fare into Sheffield will be under £2. Catch a TPE or East Midlands commuting service and the conductor is unlikely to even try to get down the train. No barriers at Sheffield as back up, so who knows how many travel free? Same goes in reverse in that short distance.
The Northern service needs a little more skill. The conductors may check one of two Pacer carriages if not too full, but often not the front coach, so choose the front for the best chance of escaping ticket inspection. (When two units are operated the front unit is often totally unchecked after the barrier at Piccadilly to ungated Sheffield and vice versa.)
Many fellow passengers aren't playing the game. They're making it harder by using the TVM or having electronic tickets so trains are being checked quicker! However some conductors are not as diligent as others so it still goes on. Why more penalties haven't been applied previously is something only the TOCs can explain.
Since the TVM has arrived, even though it's often out of order, passenger numbers have risen faster than at any other station on our line. Coincidence?
kristiang85
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NSB2017
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Thing is, if there was 100% always a way to buy the ticket you want before boarding the train, I’d support a zero-tolerance approach. No settlements, nothing but prosecution.
But would that be possible? I’d like to think it could be. No ticket, don’t get on the train.
World isn’t that simple, though, is it?
But would that be possible? I’d like to think it could be. No ticket, don’t get on the train.
World isn’t that simple, though, is it?
The_Train
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This is what I was getting at earlier in the thread. At the moment people have too many excuses for not buying tickets that it's pretty impossible to manage it fairly, particularly as there is no way of knowing if someone is playing the system or has made a genuine mistake.
Create a universal system (if we can send rockets to the moon and mars, I'm sure we can do this) that means everyone has to buy a ticket beforehand and all excuses are gone.
Certainly possible if the will is there, as has been proven elsewhere.
Hang on! You can get a train ride for less than £2?!?
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Is it universally possible?
By your proposal you are going to have to fit a ticket machine that takes cards and cash at EVERY station in the UK?
Do you honestly think that is possible?
I can think of no-where that this is done.
Killingworth
Established Member
Dore & Totley - Sheffield, about 6 minutes, With Railcard, £1.70 standard single, any time day return £2.50, off peak day return £2.10. Full fares £2.60, £3.80 and £3.20.
Yet human nature still means folks position themselves where they may avoid having to show a ticket. Not intentionally dishonest, just naturally gravitating to strategic parts of the train.
Trains are only hourly with some gaps of two hours, and the bus is free after 9.30 for us oldies. Buses run every 10-20 minutes, but take half an hour and actually cost more for those paying a fare. Trains would be used more if they were more frequent. Added to that all the Hope Valley line stations currently feature among the nation's worst 100 for punctuality.
Haywain
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I'm sorry, but deliberately trying to avoid paying IS intentionally dishonest. It is the idea that it isn't that encourages so many people to do it.
Killingworth
Established Member
There are at least two other live threads running around this subject. The lack of previous attention to revenue loss by operators has led to the problem which is now being addressed.
Northern have 478 stations and the cost of TVMs for all of them would be immense. Nevertheless they're going in at most. Once they're bedded in there'll be far less reason to be boarding ticket less. It's having an effect and since the machine was installed at my station estimated passenger numbers have gone up much more than the national trend. It's the practical inability to pay that has been the issue, far outweighing any dishonesty.
twpsaesneg
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That's an interesting point - for years I used a "Paytrain" route to get to and from work and, since the fares along the branch to the main destination were all the same, the guards would usually issue tickets from the branch terminus regardless of what station you actually got on at. Fairly recently TVM's have been put in, I wonder how much of a change this will make to the passenger numbers from the other stations.
This was in quite an urban and well used area and it's only recently any of the stations have had TVM's. It was always the practice to buy on the train, the guards would usually refer you to the main station ticket office for any fares that were "unusual" - e.g. to London etc.
A bit unfair on hill walkers there. Of all the times I have gone for a hike in a national park or Scotland I have never seen cars parked obstructing the road. It might become an issue in some parts of Scotland where they are charging £8 for parking at the honeypot car parks for certain hills, which leads some to think they are taking the p*ss, and either go somewhere else or park on the side of or just off the road.
IceAgeComing
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You can get a return from Charing Cross (Glasgow) to Glasgow Queen Street for £1 if you have a railcard - actually the cheapest fare off-peak since they don't have an off-peak Single and the off-peak return is cheaper than the anytime single. Takes all of three minutes and the only people who probably use it are either lazy or are changing at Queen Street anyway. I imagine that you have other similar fares for the other central Glasgow stations like Argyle Street to Central.
Haywain
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I'm really not sure what you are trying to say here. I responded to this comment:
And my point stands that such an action *is* intentionally dishonest, no matter how much you try to excuse it.
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