Bus operators that have an exact fare policy.

GusB · 22 Dec 2018

Jordan Adam said:
The second version of the machines (White ones) which remained in use up till 2009 proved to be very unreliable towards the end, with passengers often having to be let on for free. The reason for it being scrapped in 2016 was due to a decline in use and the rise of "smart ticketing". A good concept that did work, but became outdated by better technologies.

On all the buses native to the fleet up to the SV08 B9TLs you can still see where the machines used to be as the hole on the cab wall has just been panelled over. (see link below).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanadam44/36729695583/

I kent ye widna let me doon

As a wee aside, a book I bought a couple of years ago showed a photograph of a Northern Olympian, part of the then "Grampian Scottish" fleet, doing a run to Buckie on the 305. The caption stated that due to the fact that the bus had "autofare equipment" installed, it had to have a conductor for routes outwith the city (Aberdeen). I started going to secondary school in 1986, around the time when Northern were introducing dual-door Olympians for the Aberdeen City fleet, and a few of the older 'deckers were sent north for repainting, with a few remaining permanently. They retained their fareboxes for a good while (bagged over and tied), but had regular Wayfarer I machines installed which didn't quite fit in the original mounts.

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swt class 450 · 22 Dec 2018

I had no idea that Stagecoach ever used an exact fare policy. I presume that Aberdeen must have been the only place where they did this. Do you know when the night services started giving change? How long ago was this?

Jordan Adam · 22 Dec 2018

user1234 said:
I had no idea that Stagecoach ever used an exact fare policy. I presume that Aberdeen must have been the only place where they did this. Do you know when the night services started giving change? How long ago was this?

I'm not too sure on exact dates, but from what i can work out they dropped exact fare on night services around 2012(ish).

GusB said:
I kent ye widna let me doon

As a wee aside, a book I bought a couple of years ago showed a photograph of a Northern Olympian, part of the then "Grampian Scottish" fleet, doing a run to Buckie on the 305. The caption stated that due to the fact that the bus had "autofare equipment" installed, it had to have a conductor for routes outwith the city (Aberdeen). I started going to secondary school in 1986, around the time when Northern were introducing dual-door Olympians for the Aberdeen City fleet, and a few of the older 'deckers were sent north for repainting, with a few remaining permanently. They retained their fareboxes for a good while (bagged over and tied), but had regular Wayfarer I machines installed which didn't quite fit in the original mounts.

I forgot to mention that the V-DSA MANs, MANs that cascaded to Aberdeen in 2001 and possibly some Darts too. Had fareboxes, they kept the boxes all their lives in order to work night services, although they were bagged over during the day. In later years many younger non-farebox fitted buses were using on nights route with drivers collecting fares as normal, although the exact fare policy still applied for some time.

I'll do some searching around and try to find out when the 59 was converted away from exact fare. If i were to hazard a guess i'd say in the May 2001 changes when the frequency got enhanced to Every 10 Minutes.

Bletchleyite · 22 Dec 2018

GusB said:
I hadn't realised that the Farecard concept had lasted so long. It was a good idea in theory, but in practice it didn't really allow speedy boarding. The Farecards themselves were fairly temperamental, and often required re-insertion before they could be read properly. Cash was very much faster!

This sounds a similar issue to the old MK Metro contact-type smartcards. There was never a stored value version (though I believe it was capable of it), but boarding using a pass was slower than paying a cash fare. One of the first things Arriva did on taking over was to get rid of it, replacing with paper season tickets.

Martin2012 · 22 Dec 2018

Am sure Thamesdown used to have an "Exact Fare" system in place on Swindon's buses.

swt class 450 · 22 Dec 2018

I believe that Go Ahead got rid of the exact fare policy when the took over Thamesdown from the Council ownership.

Hophead · 22 Dec 2018

Martin2012 said:
Am sure Thamesdown used to have an "Exact Fare" system in place on Swindon's buses.

They did. It was removed earlier this year - one of Go-Ahead South's first changes after taking over.

Typhoon · 22 Dec 2018

randyrippley said:
West Midlands PTE had an exact fare policy in the 1970's. The ticket was a photocopy of the coins used

I moved to Birmingham around 1973. I don't think I ever saw that (but I have heard about it).

The arrangement I remember is https://theironroom.wordpress.com/tag/transport/
I don't remember drivers having conversations with customers though!

Man of Kent · 22 Dec 2018

Typhoon said:
I moved to Birmingham around 1973. I don't think I ever saw that (but I have heard about it).

The arrangement I remember is https://theironroom.wordpress.com/tag/transport/
I don't remember drivers having conversations with customers though!

WMPTE was indeed pretty much universally on Autofare at a very early date.
The system being described was Videmat, to be found in Cardiff, Leicester, Manchester (SELNEC/GMPTE) Reading, Sheffield (SYPTE) and Southampton amongst other places.

urpert · 22 Dec 2018

Andyh82 said:
They brought it in in those areas when they got rid of conductors, and got rid of it when customer service started to become a focus in the mid 90s.

Despite the changes in technology over the last 30 years it seems the actual exact ‘fare box’ is exactly the same in a Lothian Gemini in 2018 or a WYPTE Atlantean in 1980, there seems to be only one type in use across the board.

Agreed, it’s certainly been the same equipment in Birmingham since the early 80s.

Darklord8899 · 23 Dec 2018

DunsBus said:
Lothian's exact fare policy dates back to Edinburgh Corporation days. It was introduced in September 1973 on two services, the 30 and 43, which both ran between Waverley Bridge and Wester Hailes. It was rolled out across the network from the following February.

...That makes the exact fare system 3months older than me!

GusB · 23 Dec 2018

user1234 said:
I had no idea that Stagecoach ever used an exact fare policy. I presume that Aberdeen must have been the only place where they did this. Do you know when the night services started giving change? How long ago was this?

The exact-fare operation in Aberdeen goes back well before Stagecoach days. I'm currently looking at a photo of a Northern Scottish Fleetline (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcd481j/30652679714) which was taken in ~~1797~~ 1979, and it clearly shows "Exact Fare" stickers below the windscreen. Grampian and Northern jointly ran some city services under the "Grampian Scottish" name (see post #31) - I believe this was from 1983, but with deregulation, Northern launched their "Citybus" network in competition with Grampian. The existing vehicles gradually had their green/cream livery replaced by a blue/yellow/cream livery, and new vehicles were dual-door. After the sale of Northern to Stagecoach, the network was gradually cut back to just two services (55 and 59, if memory serves correctly).

Busaholic · 23 Dec 2018

GusB said:
The exact-fare operation in Aberdeen goes back well before Stagecoach days. I'm currently looking at a photo of a Northern Scottish Fleetline (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcd481j/30652679714) which was taken in 1797, and it clearly shows "Exact Fare" stickers below the windscreen. Grampian and Northern jointly ran some city services under the "Grampian Scottish" name (see post #31) - I believe this was from 1983, but with deregulation, Northern launched their "Citybus" network in competition with Grampian. The existing vehicles gradually had their green/cream livery replaced by a blue/yellow/cream livery, and new vehicles were dual-door. After the sale of Northern to Stagecoach, the network was gradually cut back to just two services (55 and 59, if memory serves correctly).

The year coincides with the date of the last invasion of Britain, by the French, so quite some year!

GusB · 23 Dec 2018

Busaholic said:
The year coincides with the date of the last invasion of Britain, by the French, so quite some year!

Oops! Forgive my typo - post now corrected! :oops:

Typhoon · 23 Dec 2018

Man of Kent said:
WMPTE was indeed pretty much universally on Autofare at a very early date.
The system being described was Videmat, to be found in Cardiff, Leicester, Manchester (SELNEC/GMPTE) Reading, Sheffield (SYPTE) and Southampton amongst other places.

Thanks for that, it has nudged my memory. Dull grey tickets, I believe. I seem to remember that it was easy to work out what the fare was as I worked out that if I got off a stop early, it was cheaper.

Jordan Adam · 24 Dec 2018

GusB said:
The exact-fare operation in Aberdeen goes back well before Stagecoach days. I'm currently looking at a photo of a Northern Scottish Fleetline (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tcd481j/30652679714) which was taken in ~~1797~~ 1979, and it clearly shows "Exact Fare" stickers below the windscreen. Grampian and Northern jointly ran some city services under the "Grampian Scottish" name (see post #31) - I believe this was from 1983, but with deregulation, Northern launched their "Citybus" network in competition with Grampian. The existing vehicles gradually had their green/cream livery replaced by a blue/yellow/cream livery, and new vehicles were dual-door. After the sale of Northern to Stagecoach, the network was gradually cut back to just two services (55 and 59, if memory serves correctly).

Technically Stagecoach kept 3 city Services, 55 & 59 plus the 92 (BP Farburn to Mannofield), the 55 was short lived being withdrawn in 1994 as by this point it was running in competition with Grampian's 5. The 92 lasted until just a few years ago and the 59 remains unchanged. Funnily enough Stagecoach now have 4 city services (9U, 59, 119 & 727). In the early 90s Grampian & Bluebird had a unofficial "gentleman agreement" that neither operator would compete on each others services, they've pretty much stuck to it since then and it's the reason why there's little competition in or around Aberdeen.

Mutant Lemming · 24 Dec 2018

user1234 said:
What are your thoughts on the exact fare system that is used by some bus operators in the UK?

I had absolutely no idea that such a system existed until just about a month ago when i was in a different city and came across one of these buses. It seems like a ridiculous and very customer unfriendly system. When i found out i simply got off the bus and took another company as i wasn't going to overpay.

I have done a lot of research and i am surprised by just how many bus operators use it. It seems like all of the following companies currently use this system:

• A & J Ballantyne

• Canavan Travel

• Cardiff Bus

• City Direct (Ireland)

• Clan Travel (aka GD Coaches)

• Claribels

• Coakley Bus (aka Mackenzie Bus)

• Dublin Bus [coins only]
· change is given: routes 747/757
· exact fare only: all other routes

• Dunns Coaches

• E & M Horsburgh

• Eve Coaches

• First (Scotland Only)
· change is given: All "First Scotland East" services run from Balfron and Bannockburn and Larbert depots.
· exact fare only: All "First Aberdeen" and "First Glasgow" services and all "First Scotland East services run from Livingston depot

• Garelochhead Coaches
· change is given: 320 456
· exact fare only: 100 207 302 305 306 309 316 316A 316B

• GD Coaches (aka Clan Travel)

• Go Ahead (Ireland Only) [coins only]

• Ipswich Buses
· change is given: 91 92 93 93A 93C 94 94A 94C 95 95R 97 98 111 111A 173 174 194 387 464 465 511 914 988 X93
· exact fare only: 1 2 3 4 5 5E 6 7 8 9 10 11A 11B 12 13 14 15 15A 16 18A

• JJ Travel (aka Mcnairn Coaches)

• Lets Go (aka Travel Express)

• Lothian Buses (including the "East Coast Buses" and "Lothian Country Buses" brands)
· change is given: routes 100/X99
· exact fare only: all other routes

• Mackenzie Bus (aka Coakley Bus)

• Mcnairn Coaches (aka JJ Travel)

• National Express (Coventry and Dundee and West Midlands only)

• Newport Bus

• Nottingham City Transport
· change is given: routes 1/1B/100/N100 (but not 1A)
· exact fare only: all other routes

• Prentice Coaches

• Reading Buses
· change is given: Reading Buses routes 1 2 2A 3 3B 4 7 10 10A 500 X3 X4 and Connect Henley routes 145 151 152 153 and Greenline routes 702 703 and Greenwave routes 40 50 50A 50B 51 52 52A 52B 53 53A 53B 53X 60 60A 60B 60C 60E 60M 60X 62 62A 63 66 and Kennections routes 2 2A 2C 3 3A 3X 4 4A 4B 4C 6 6A 8 9 9B 9C and Newbury & District routes 1A 1B 1C 1D 103 103A 103B 103C 103X 123 123C 124 and Thames Valley routes 4 5 6
· exact fare only: Reading Buses routes 5 6 6A 9 11 13 14 15 15A 15T 16 16S 17 19A 19B 19C 21 21A 22 22S 23 23S 24 25 25S 26 26L 26T 27 28S 29 33 33S 42 42A 42X 981 F1 F2 F10 F11 F12 F13 F14 F20 F21 F22 F23 F24 F25 F30 F31 F32 F33 F34 R1

• Rotala (Preston Bus Only)
· change is given: 1 2 3 5(Clitheroe) 5(Ormskirk) 6(Ormskirk) 12 25 35(Blackburn) 75 76 77 77A 112 114 119 122 280 312 313 337 347 400 401 433 437A 437B 546 568 574 576 584 594 648 656 660 663 664 680 695 698 719 731 741 767 820 822 830 853 859 959 960 961 962 963 995
· exact fare only: 6(Preston) 6A 8 14 16 19 19A 23 29 31 35(Preston) 44 88 89

• Travel Express (aka Lets Go)

• Wilsons Of Rhu

I may have missed some out so let me know if there are any others.

I find it strange that so many small independent bus operators in Scotland around the Edinburgh and Glasgow areas have an exact fare policy. Most of these companies only run rural routes and town bus routes. I wonder what is it about the Central Scotland area that attracts so many small independents to use it?

Also what is main purpose of it? I have read it is to do with safety and speed? But then why do so many other places in the UK (even large big cities) not have a problem with change? I don't think any bus operator in Mainland Europe (except Reykjavik in Iceland) has an exact fare policy either?

Also doesn't this system make it so easy to underpay and use counterfeit money?

If somebody uses lots of small coins how is the driver meant to count them all? For example surely somebody could easily pay £4.00 for a £5.00 fare by just using a lot of small coins? Also couldn't someone easily just put counterfeit money in to the farebox and the driver would have no way to tell? Finally you could probably even get away with putting some foreign money in it without the driver noticing?

I am a bus driver for a small independent company and i certainly wouldn't like this system on my bus.

What are your thoughts? Does anyone on here regularly use these exact fare buses? Does it make you try to avoid travelling on these companies? Or have you gotten used to it?

I notice that from that list there are six of the remaining nine municipal operators.

tom73 · 24 Dec 2018

As an early morning bus user you would be surprised how many casual users board a bus at 6AM or so and expect the driver to somehow have change for a £10 note and on some occasions even a £20 note. The very type of people who go into a mini-rage when the driver turns them away. Drivers are wise to the trick of people boarding with a large note in the hope of a free ride. Just as it is the passenger's responsibility to possess a reasonable amount of change for a bus fare, that should also include having coins to cover an Exact Fare policy. All you need aside from a £1/£2 coin is a single 50p along with a couple of 20p a 10p and a 5p. How hard is that.

SCH117X · 24 Dec 2018

tom73 said:
All you need aside from a £1/£2 coin is a single 50p along with a couple of 20p a 10p and a 5p. How hard is that.

With a lot of people using debit cards rather cash to pay for small transactions it is IME quite easily to suddenly realise that its ages since you handed any cash over and looking in the pocket only find a few pence and a £10 or £20 note in the wallet. Surely if an operator is giving change drivers should start the day with an adequate float of money like any other business. The problem goes away with operators installing card readers meaning even less use of cash, and also the use of mobile phone ticketing.
On the use of exact fare machines remember filling up the hopper of a Nottm City Transport bus with 1/2p coins just before they went out of circulation - pretty certain at the speed the driver issued the ticket he did not count the coins.

goldisgood · 24 Dec 2018

tom73 said:
As an early morning bus user you would be surprised how many casual users board a bus at 6AM or so and expect the driver to somehow have change for a £10 note and on some occasions even a £20 note. The very type of people who go into a mini-rage when the driver turns them away. Drivers are wise to the trick of people boarding with a large note in the hope of a free ride. Just as it is the passenger's responsibility to possess a reasonable amount of change for a bus fare, that should also include having coins to cover an Exact Fare policy. All you need aside from a £1/£2 coin is a single 50p along with a couple of 20p a 10p and a 5p. How hard is that.

Don't they give a change voucher or equivalent? I know the companies around Oxford do this, and I'd have thought that it would be done elsewhere.

Dai Corner · 24 Dec 2018

Newport Transport have an exact fare policy, vaults and a 'stored value' Freedom card. When a ticket is issued the remaining value is printed but who keeps their old bus tickets? The conversation usually goes something like this.

Passenger: have I got enough on my card for [required ticket]?
Driver: Put your card on the reader and I'll see
Card placed on reader, driver presses buttons
Driver: No, you'll have to top it up. Take your card off the reader
Passenger removes card and puts cash in slot (has to be exactly £3, £4, £5 or £10 i think)
Driver: put your card on the reader please
Driver counts cash, presses buttons, cash drops into vault
Driver: Pick your card up please. What ticket did you want again?
Passenger: [required ticket] please.
Driver: That'll be [fare] please.
Passenger places card on reader.
Driver issues ticket
Passenger retrieves card and ticket.

VioletEclipse · 15 Jan 2019

Dai Corner said:
Newport Transport have an exact fare policy, vaults and a 'stored value' Freedom card. When a ticket is issued the remaining value is printed but who keeps their old bus tickets? The conversation usually goes something like this.

Passenger: have I got enough on my card for [required ticket]?
Driver: Put your card on the reader and I'll see
Card placed on reader, driver presses buttons
Driver: No, you'll have to top it up. Take your card off the reader
Passenger removes card and puts cash in slot (has to be exactly £3, £4, £5 or £10 i think)
Driver: put your card on the reader please
Driver counts cash, presses buttons, cash drops into vault
Driver: Pick your card up please. What ticket did you want again?
Passenger: [required ticket] please.
Driver: That'll be [fare] please.
Passenger places card on reader.
Driver issues ticket
Passenger retrieves card and ticket.

Well that would add a lot to journey times.

Deerfold · 15 Jan 2019

tom73 said:
As an early morning bus user you would be surprised how many casual users board a bus at 6AM or so and expect the driver to somehow have change for a £10 note and on some occasions even a £20 note. The very type of people who go into a mini-rage when the driver turns them away. Drivers are wise to the trick of people boarding with a large note in the hope of a free ride. Just as it is the passenger's responsibility to possess a reasonable amount of change for a bus fare, that should also include having coins to cover an Exact Fare policy. All you need aside from a £1/£2 coin is a single 50p along with a couple of 20p a 10p and a 5p. How hard is that.

Perhaps these same people have gone into shops just after they've opened and had no problem at all getting change from whatever money they happened to have on them and so have been surprised a depot would send out a driver without change?

Tetchytyke · 15 Jan 2019

tom73 said:
that should also include having coins to cover an Exact Fare policy. All you need aside from a £1/£2 coin is a single 50p along with a couple of 20p a 10p and a 5p. How hard is that.

Back when Yorkshire Rider had the hoppers, my bus fare to school was 37p. And the drivers always booted off if you paid it in coppers.

And up here, for a good while a Megarider was £13.95 per week. No wonder drivers ate through their float!

Can't win.

It doesn't help that ATMs that issue fivers are rarer than hen's teeth except in the city centre.

swt class 450 · 16 Jan 2019

At the bus company that i work at we have to let passengers travel for free if we don't have enough change. The only time we can refuse them travel is for £50 banknotes. But for £5/£10/£20 banknotes we can not refuse them travel. So even if someone comes on with a £20 banknote for a £1 fare then we have to let them travel for free if we don't have enough change on us to give them.

Bantamzen · 16 Jan 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Back when Yorkshire Rider had the hoppers, my bus fare to school was 37p. And the drivers always booted off if you paid it in coppers.

And up here, for a good while a Megarider was £13.95 per week. No wonder drivers ate through their float!

Can't win.

It doesn't help that ATMs that issue fivers are rarer than hen's teeth except in the city centre.

Before privatisation, my local WY Metro services (636/637 Bradford - Clayton) were exact fare services for many years. In fact they were the only ones for most of the time, and so you simply got used to having the right change although there were occasions when large numbers of coppers were used. Of course there were always the SaverStrips when they were around if you didn't want to carry bucket loads of cash, but generally people just got on with it. These days some people don't half carry on when they present a £20 note on an early morning service for a couple of pounds worth of fare, and as some operators do get offered them credit in return. For a regular traveller this just becomes a form of payment, and for the irregular, well surely they have a jar somewhere with all those small domination coins to prevent the problem in the first place?

Robertj21a · 16 Jan 2019

user1234 said:
At the bus company that i work at we have to let passengers travel for free if we don't have enough change. The only time we can refuse them travel is for £50 banknotes. But for £5/£10/£20 banknotes we can not refuse them travel. So even if someone comes on with a £20 banknote for a £1 fare then we have to let them travel for free if we don't have enough change on us to give them.

Perhaps they should issue change vouchers as some other operators do nowadays.

Tetchytyke · 16 Jan 2019

Bantamzen said:
surely they have a jar somewhere with all those small domination coins to prevent the problem in the first place?

I don't. I don't use cash a lot and it's rare I end up with a sackful of shrapnel. I use my debit card for most things these days and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Speaking of West Yorkshire, it's telling that the first thing First did when they brought in the upgraded Sovereign services in Bradford was to get rid of the hoppers on them. They made a huge deal of now being able to get change on a bus.

Bantamzen · 16 Jan 2019

Arctic Troll said:
I don't. I don't use cash a lot and it's rare I end up with a sackful of shrapnel. I use my debit card for most things these days and I'm sure I'm not alone.

And people like yourself won't often find yourselves waiving a £20 note at an annoyed driver with a £15 float!

But people who use cash a lot will have lots of change kicking about I'm sure, or at least enough to ensure they carry enough for those paid for by cash journeys. My point was that people have been able to cope in the past, why not now? Prices may have gone up, but then we also have more & larger denomination coins in circulation weighing down people's pockets / purses.

Arctic Troll said:
Speaking of West Yorkshire, it's telling that the first thing First did when they brought in the upgraded Sovereign services in Bradford was to get rid of the hoppers on them. They made a huge deal of now being able to get change on a bus.

I remember it well. In reality it noticeably slowed down boarding times on those services that were previously exact fare with the hoppers.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jan 2019

Robertj21a said:
Perhaps they should issue change vouchers as some other operators do nowadays.

Or perhaps the policy is a friendly one and needs to remain?

That said, I still think the cash needs to be taken off the bus - the benefits are immense. The huge network of PayPoint and PayZone stores could be used to allow sales of cash tickets. For everyone else, as the advert almost goes, there's Mastercard (or Visa).

Bus operators that have an exact fare policy.

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