Are TFL journey times for London Underground precise?

BluePenguin · 12 Jan 2019

I have never bothered to look too closely at times of the underground but it seems they behave very differently to the way trains do.

I was looking up a journey earlier and I noticed that although the total travel time was 10 minutes, it said it will take 12 minutes in total. I then looked up the individual timetables for each line on the route I was planning to take and found that the start and end times didn't actually exist.

See in my screenshot the time given of the Victoria line is 13:55. No time is given stating what time the Bakerloo line train will arrive or depart, it only say that it will take 6 minutes. I wonder whether it is making this up.

Could this journey be done in 10 minutes possibly?

I know that the tube is supposed to be turn up and go, but I don't understand this at all as most timetables and journey planners have specific arrival and departure times. Does the journey planner go "hmm well there is a tube arriving around that time so I will just pluck a random departure time out of the air, assume it takes a minute to change trains and stick 2 minutes on the end to allow for leaving the station"?

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Mojo · 12 Jan 2019

Yes, the times in the Journey Planner are accurate.

westv · 12 Jan 2019

It takes around 10 seconds to change from Victoria line to Bakerloo line at Oxford Circus.

PeterC · 14 Jan 2019

I haven't used the journey planner to that degree of accuracy for a few years but when I used it to decide if to go to Marylebone rather than Baker Street it never failed.

Daniel · 15 Jan 2019

Whenever I've compared the journey planner to the Northern Line working timetable it tends to be accurate to the minute, so I can only assume it's the working timetables which provide the data to it.

pelli · 16 Jan 2019

In your screenshot, tap "view details" to see the departure times of each individual train.

When I look up the Victoria Line timetable from King's Cross St. Pancras to Oxford Circus I do get a 13:55 departure (13:59 arrival) every day of the week. Then Bakerloo Line from Oxford Circus to Waterloo has a 14:07 arrival (14:01 departure) on Mon-Sat but it's one minute earlier on Sundays.

si404 · 16 Jan 2019

westv said:
It takes around 10 seconds to change from Victoria line to Bakerloo line at Oxford Circus.

If, and only if, there's a train on both sides.

Otherwise there's a wait. Given this is travelling onto the Bakerloo line, then a 2 minute change is realistic to add (even if it's a minute and a half rounded up).

westv · 16 Jan 2019

si404 said:
If, and only if, there's a train on both sides.

Otherwise there's a wait. Given this is travelling onto the Bakerloo line, then a 2 minute change is realistic to add (even if it's a minute and a half rounded up).

Ah, I meant just from getting off the Victoria line train to getting to the Bakerloo line platform.

cactustwirly · 16 Jan 2019

BluePenguin said:
I have never bothered to look too closely at times of the underground but it seems they behave very differently to the way trains do.

I was looking up a journey earlier and I noticed that although the total travel time was 10 minutes, it said it will take 12 minutes in total. I then looked up the individual timetables for each line on the route I was planning to take and found that the start and end times didn't actually exist.

See in my screenshot the time given of the Victoria line is 13:55. No time is given stating what time the Bakerloo line train will arrive or depart, it only say that it will take 6 minutes. I wonder whether it is making this up.

Could this journey be done in 10 minutes possibly?

I know that the tube is supposed to be turn up and go, but I don't understand this at all as most timetables and journey planners have specific arrival and departure times. Does the journey planner go "hmm well there is a tube arriving around that time so I will just pluck a random departure time out of the air, assume it takes a minute to change trains and stick 2 minutes on the end to allow for leaving the station"?

No, TfL just pluck the times out of thin air! :rolleyes:

Bedpan · 20 Jan 2019

I’d say the situation is somewhere between the two. Yes there is - has to be - a timetable but they don’t neccessarily stick to it rigidly. Because every “line” except the Metropolitan stops at every station it is easy to divert trains or terminate them short of destination in order to fill gaps, so it isn’t at all unusual for a destination to be changed whilst the train in en route. This happens in the Geoff Marshall YouTube about Kensington Olympia...he gets on an Olympia train at High Street Kensington bu at Earls Court the destination is changed to Ealing Broadway.

Mojo · 20 Jan 2019

Bedpan said:
I’d say the situation is somewhere between the two. Yes there is - has to be - a timetable but they don’t neccessarily stick to it rigidly. Because every “line” except the Metropolitan stops at every station it is easy to divert trains or terminate them short of destination in order to fill gaps, so it isn’t at all unusual for a destination to be changed whilst the train in en route. This happens in the Geoff Marshall YouTube about Kensington Olympia...he gets on an Olympia train at High Street Kensington bu at Earls Court the destination is changed to Ealing Broadway.

However the majority of the time (but not always) a train’s destination is changed en-route is actually to put things back to the timetable rather than fill a gap. Yes, this does happen from time to time, and on some lines this is more common than others, but most changes would normally be as the result of a reform.

Wirewiper · 20 Jan 2019

There's a Circle Line train after the Monday-Friday morning peak that trundles round the anti-clockwise loop displaying "Edgware Road" as a destination. On arrival, it immediately becomes a District Line train and sets straight off again - and not to Wimbledon, but to Ealing Broadway. And this is a scheduled working, not an ad-hoc change to plug a gap in the service. I suspect there are a few other odd exchange workings like this between the Circle, District and H&C Lines.

bluegoblin7 · 20 Jan 2019

Wirewiper said:
There's a Circle Line train after the Monday-Friday morning peak that trundles round the anti-clockwise loop displaying "Edgware Road" as a destination. On arrival, it immediately becomes a District Line train and sets straight off again - and not to Wimbledon, but to Ealing Broadway. And this is a scheduled working, not an ad-hoc change to plug a gap in the service. I suspect there are a few other odd exchange workings like this between the Circle, District and H&C Lines.

Two workings each way in the day (one each into Upminster [T171] and Ealing Common [T172] depots after the morning peak and out before the evening peak) largely for changeover purposes (the trains starting/finishing from Hammersmith) and a number (I forget the exact amount) to and from Upminster and Ealing Common at the start and close of traffic. There is also one train that runs to/from Neasden, although this is empty over the Met. A handful of the trains that start from Upminster also run via the Outer Rail to Edgware Road (i.e. via Aldgate East and Minories Junctions), before picking up their Inner Rail workings from there.

On that note, it's worth pointing out that C&H Drivers have route knowledge around all three sides of the Aldgate/Aldgate East/Minories Junction triangle. Westbound H&C trains are often diverted at Edgware Road to run Inner Rail to Barking during times of disruption to fill in for a Circle line if there's a double cancellation. Certainly within the MCH diverting trains to fill a gap is a regular occurrence.

Peter C · 26 Jan 2019

A good way to gauge how long a journey will be is to say that it's 2mins between stations and 5mins to change (probably getting on for 10mins at Bank/Monument!). I know it's not exact but it gives you a good idea.

sprunt · 27 Jan 2019

On a related subject, when travelling south on the NCL to change to the Northern Line, why does the TfL journey planner suggest changing at Old Street, rather than the much quicker change at Moorgate? I thought there might be a standard to suggest changing at the first opportunity, but a similar journey changing to the Victoria line suggests (sensibly) changing at Highbury & Islington, not Finsbury Park.

Are TFL journey times for London Underground precise?

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