How quickly can Lothian go 100% Electric?

VioletEclipse · 14 Dec 2018

ericlesley said:
As other posters have mentioned, the total cost of ownership of electric buses is already on par or lower than diesel buses. The problem is the upfront capital costs which are prohibitive. To put it in context, 1000kWh of battery storage is around £1000. Bloomberg New Energy Finance estimates that if battery costs will continue to fall at their current rate then battery electric buses (BEBs) will reach upfront cost parity with diesel buses between 2025-30 (I've attached a couple of reports on electric buses to this post). By this point there will be no valid business reason to buy anything other than a BEB.

Further up the thread someone mentioned double deckers and right hand drive being obstacles. Stagecoach in Manchester has just placed an order for 56 double deck BEBs from ADL/BYD:

https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2027427-manchester-get-new-56m-fleet-electric-buses

However there are some practical issues with BEBs that need to be overcome:
1. Range. The largest (real life range available is currently about 250-300km) but this is contingent on many factors (hills, weather, ambient temperature etc). In order to have enough batteries to cover this range, passenger capacity is reduced.
2. Productivity (often as a result of range, or of overstated performance), in Moscow the BEBs there have around 80% availability, meaning you need to order 20% more buses to operate the same service, thus nullifying the savings made from e.g. energy efficiency.

In order to overcome this there are two technical solutions that are gaining traction (pun intended) in Europe and America.

1. Opportunity charging - The BEB is equipped with smaller capacity (crucially lighter) batteries - usually for 100km range - and there are flash chargers installed at the termini, allowing 10-15min rapid recharges. There is a fleet operating around Schippol in Amsterdam that covers 500km per day on this basis. However, the charging equipment is expensive, about £500k, and new power supplies are needed to provide the 400kW (ABBs TOSA is one example of this). Experience from operation in Cologne has shown that during the peak hours 75% of buses were delayed on arrival at the termini and were unable to charge. The only way to allow charging then was to draft in diesel buses.

Here's a couple of good videos demonstrating opportunity charging:

2. BEB Trolleybuses. It may sound odd, but there is genuine movement towards this option. The bus companies call this 'In Motion Charging' (IMC), or dynamic charging. Basically the trolleybus is fitted with a battery that can cover about 40km which is continuously charged while the bus is 'in motion'. The trolleybus catenery is discontinuous, it only needs to cover 50% of the route, and thus can be erected where it is cheapest and easiest to do so. Hills, and outer suburbs are preferred because this is where there are the longest, most energy intensive sections of route. Prague has recently installed 1km of trolleybus overhead for route 58 and more is planned. Berlin and Stockholm are seriously considering installing significant amounts of trolley overhead in order to facilitate this system. It is unlikely that this version of charging will be embraced in Britain, in my view anyway.

Here are a couple of videos demonstrating IMC trolleybuses

3. Electricity requirements. According to Kiepe, overnight depot charging has the greatest draw on the grid followed by flash charging and IMC last.

I've attached some information to this post, if anyone is interested. In reference to Lothian buses, if the Low Emission Zone goes ahead then their fleet will need to be 100% Euro VI by 2023. That means a lot of buses will need replaced or retrofitted and the Euro VI retrofit increases operating costs significantly (c£200k higher fuel costs over lifetime). It would make sense, in my view, for the Scottish government to pay for the installation of opportunity charging equipment (they'll give you an interest free loan to buy a plug in car) and loan bus companies the capital to go straight to electric, bypassing Euro VI. And as an aside, Euro VI doesn't necessarily reduce emissions.

So in answer to the question, how long will it take for lothian to go fully electric? I guess by 2025 diesel buses will be the minority and the manufacturers will probably have stopped making them, or they'll be the minority of orders.

Great videos, shows that it's no doubt possible, and it's a lot more efficient than Euro 6 in every way except the initial purchase cost. I agree that diesel will be the minority by 2025, manufacturers would realise the benefit of making buses 100% electric (or another alternative fuel).

ericlesley said:
This is an excellent point, and perhaps one of the reasons that SOLARIS are so well placed in the electric bus market - their experience designing trolleybuses and trams?

Another point is the type and chemistry of batteries available. The big car makers are piling money into R&D of solid state batteries. If this proves fruitful then batteries will be smaller and lighter for the same energy storage making bus design simpler.

Lothian and First Glasgow have both said (albeit off the record) that the purchase costs are too high relative to a diesel bus.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...er-buses-say-about-public-transport-1-4830591

The Bloomberg report I linked earlier makes the same point - that at the moment many BEBs are purchased with grants, which is not sustainable. Likewise, it says that credit financing of BEBs is considered as risky (the battery life is currently esitmated at 8 years compared to the 12 year life of a diesel bus) as residual value is unkown.

Hence why the large battery bus with overnight charging isn't currently the most popular option. According to the Transport and environment report i linked above, 60% of BEB orders were for vehicles with pantographs to enable opportunity charging. Also, as of summer 2018, it estimates there are 1600 BEBs on order for delivery in 2019... These two graphs are interesting:

View attachment 56573 View attachment 56574

Car batteries are getting a lot more funding and research, it is true, but funding for BEBs is there, even if it's not everywhere.
Also hopefully purchase costs will drop significantly within the next decade, and I thing they will, so Government funding won't be necessary, and when that happens then I think BEBs will be a lot more popular.

Trolleybuses would have been great had they left up the tram wires from the 60s, but hey ho, they didn't so maybe not in Edinburgh, while (as mentioned) many other cities do have the infrastructure and there it would make sense.

VioletEclipse said:
I am aware that purchasing electric buses isn't completely cost free and efficient, but nothing is!

I apologise for saying that, it was me trying to skim read and reply on my phone, and I completely misread and it wasn't kind to say it anyway. sorry.

TheGrandWazoo said:
One little correction in that Stagecoach are getting 105 electric vehicles spending £56m. Of course, there will be some infrastructure costs in that (?) but does emphasise the increased capital costs of such vehicles.

Not sure if the infrastructure costs are included in the price or not, but that aside it's a really good step forward by Stagecoach, good on them!

RailUK Forums

HSTEd · 15 Dec 2018

Battery charging facilities for hundreds of buses is going to be a rather major electrical installation - complete with a high voltage distribution system.

720 Electric buses all charging at once is going to be a load measured in tens of megawatts.

158756 · 15 Dec 2018

VioletEclipse said:
Also hopefully purchase costs will drop significantly within the next decade, and I thing they will, so Government funding won't be necessary, and when that happens then I think BEBs will be a lot more popular.

Not sure if the infrastructure costs are included in the price or not, but that aside it's a really good step forward by Stagecoach, good on them!

Unfortunately Stagecoach have only made a bid for funding to assist in the purchase of the buses. There is nowhere near enough money available to pay for all the bids that will have been submitted. The concept of electric buses is clearly popular, and obviously operators aren't that concerned about range or charging infrastructure, at least for a selection of routes, but neither they nor the government are willing to stump up for the current costs of going electric.

VioletEclipse · 15 Dec 2018

HSTEd said:
Battery charging facilities for hundreds of buses is going to be a rather major electrical installation - complete with a high voltage distribution system.

720 Electric buses all charging at once is going to be a load measured in tens of megawatts.

Spot on!

Ideally they'd charge some overnight and some midday, leaving as many as possible for rush hour, and it may be a lot of energy but it's millions better than oils forcefully being plundered and then belched out as deadly and harmful toxic fumes that we then breathe in shortening everyone's lifespan.

The time for electric buses has arrived.

VioletEclipse · 15 Dec 2018

Money is no doubt an issue today in 2018, but, I at least think, that change is imminent, for it has to be if there will be a future for buses.

NotATrainspott · 15 Dec 2018

HSTEd said:
Battery charging facilities for hundreds of buses is going to be a rather major electrical installation - complete with a high voltage distribution system.

720 Electric buses all charging at once is going to be a load measured in tens of megawatts.

In extremis, a bus operator could deal with this by installing a fuel-burning power plant on site. Battery electric operation is efficient enough that you don't need renewable power to make it all worthwhile. Such a plant could be fitted with carbon capture and other technologies to limit its local environmental impact, while the buses would be as good for the streets as if they were powered by the wind, waves and sun.

Large consumers of electricity in urban areas often do something like this. The Shard has a 1.2MW CHP plant and so will the new St James development (I can't fit its capacity). Energy is more than just electricity - it's heating and cooling, too, and 'wasteful' ways of producing electricity can come out more efficient overall because it's possible to use the waste heat productively. Lothian's depots are probably ideally located for district heating schemes.

HSTEd · 15 Dec 2018

NotATrainspott said:
In extremis, a bus operator could deal with this by installing a fuel-burning power plant on site. Battery electric operation is efficient enough that you don't need renewable power to make it all worthwhile. Such a plant could be fitted with carbon capture and other technologies to limit its local environmental impact, while the buses would be as good for the streets as if they were powered by the wind, waves and sun.

The magic of grid electricity is that we can use whatever energy sources are available, from renewables through to fissioning uranium.
On site systems dilute this advantage.

NotATrainspott said:
Large consumers of electricity in urban areas often do something like this. The Shard has a 1.2MW CHP plant and so will the new St James development (I can't fit its capacity). Energy is more than just electricity - it's heating and cooling, too, and 'wasteful' ways of producing electricity can come out more efficient overall because it's possible to use the waste heat productively. Lothian's depots are probably ideally located for district heating schemes.

District Heating has an astronomical capital cost though, it is likely to work out cheaper and more efficient to use an electricity-optimised central power plant and then heat pumps. (DH systems come out at thousands of pounds per fitted house)
There is a reason CHP plants consume enormous subsidies, the most likely method for supply to the depot would be a dedicated 11/33/132kV unit substation - it is not particularly technically difficult but it is not going to be cheap.

NotATrainspott · 16 Dec 2018

HSTEd said:
The magic of grid electricity is that we can use whatever energy sources are available, from renewables through to fissioning uranium.
On site systems dilute this advantage.

It's just electricity though. The reason you'd build a power plant on site would be economic rather than technological. Building on-site means you avoid the need to upgrade the grid, and it means that if the generation is ultimately coming from burning fossil fuels, then there's a possibility that the excess heat might be used for other productive purposes (even just heating the depot itself).

Because it's just electricity, it doesn't lock together the consumer and the producer of the electricity. The buses could switch to another electricity source in future, while any plant equipment could be used to power/heat whatever could replace the bus depot in future. The buses would be able to use whatever power is available wherever they are - the same bus models being used in the countryside could be powered by local grid wind turbines or hydro power.

That's a key advantage of electricity over hydrogen and other alternative fuels. Electricity is the universal energy transfer mechanism. No matter where you are, electricity can always be provided and have uses made of it. Hydrogen, for instance, is only practically available in areas which have excess hydrogen from industrial processes, and it can only be used by specialised equipment like hydrogen vehicles. A tight coupling like that makes a technology a much riskier investment, so it's much less likely to happen.

District Heating has an astronomical capital cost though, it is likely to work out cheaper and more efficient to use an electricity-optimised central power plant and then heat pumps. (DH systems come out at thousands of pounds per fitted house)
There is a reason CHP plants consume enormous subsidies, the most likely method for supply to the depot would be a dedicated 11/33/132kV unit substation - it is not particularly technically difficult but it is not going to be cheap.

Quite possibly. I'm just pointing out that big consumers of electricity in urban environments have options unavailable to smaller users. The examples I gave were both large new developments under a single construction programme and site operator, meaning it's as good a use-case for CHP as you can get. When you have to retrofit a system into an environment with split responsibilities, it gets that much harder. That's why universities are a major adopter of retrofitted CHP systems - they have complete control over large campuses with centralised heating systems. The cost of retrofitting CHP to thousands of individual homes is going to be disproportionately large compared to the cost of retrofitting a handful of large office-like or residential buildings. It's up to governments to consider whether CHP is a worthwhile investment for normal split-ownership situations. Retrofitting electricity to thousands of individual homes was a non-trivial job too but that proved worthwhile in the end.

VioletEclipse · 14 Jan 2019

I came across this news article recently https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/dec/12/silence-shenzhen-world-first-electric-bus-fleet

I immediately though, if a fleet of 16000 buses can be electric in 2018, then why do Lothian think they can get away with introducing 42 new diesel buses in 2019, and still have a >99% diesel powered fleet of under 1000 buses in 2019, and presumably 2020?

I know the answer is simple. Money. The current state of economy means that the survival of literally the whole planet is compromised by profit, and it frankly just makes me sad.

buslad1988 · 14 Jan 2019

VioletEclipse said:
I came across this news article recently https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/dec/12/silence-shenzhen-world-first-electric-bus-fleet

I immediately though, if a fleet of 16000 buses can be electric in 2018, then why do Lothian think they can get away with introducing 42 new diesel buses in 2019, and still have a >99% diesel powered fleet of under 1000 buses in 2019, and presumably 2020?

I know the answer is simple. Money. The current state of economy means that the survival of literally the whole planet is compromised by profit, and it frankly just makes me sad.

Can I ask is there a reason why you are picking out Lothian in particular for not doing more to widen their electric fleet?

I’d imagine the poor reliability of the electric single decks currently on the 1 has not done much to encourage them to purchase any more.

And that’s without the cost involved in purchasing electric buses. Most companies need support from schemes like the ‘green bus fund’ to purchase hybrids let alone fully electric vehicles. Yes Lothian are very healthy financially however that does not mean they should be investing in endless amounts of electric buses at the current time.

In the UK it seems the technology and suppliers have still not moved forward enough a) to provide reliable vehicles and b) to sell them at a reasonable price.

I do agree more should be done across the UK and the world to make buses greener and cleaner I’m just unsure as to why you are picking out Lothian in particular. This message is by no means a dig at you btw; fully appreciate your opinions.

VioletEclipse · 14 Jan 2019

buslad1988 said:
Can I ask is there a reason why you are picking out Lothian in particular for not doing more to widen their electric fleet?

I’d imagine the poor reliability of the electric single decks currently on the 1 has not done much to encourage them to purchase any more.

And that’s without the cost involved in purchasing electric buses. Most companies need support from schemes like the ‘green bus fund’ to purchase hybrids let alone fully electric vehicles. Yes Lothian are very healthy financially however that does not mean they should be investing in endless amounts of electric buses at the current time.

In the UK it seems the technology and suppliers have still not moved forward enough a) to provide reliable vehicles and b) to sell them at a reasonable price.

I do agree more should be done across the UK and the world to make buses greener and cleaner I’m just unsure as to why you are picking out Lothian in particular. This message is by no means a dig at you btw; fully appreciate your opinions.

Yeah I just picked Lothian as they are the main subject here and they are my local company, but the same or similar applies to thousands of companies. I realise the tech over here is frustratingly slow, but I see no excuse for a company to buy brand new buses powered by diesel in 2019 when the climate crisis is (arguably) the most important issue there is. The main problem I see is that profit is STILL seen as more important in making business decisions than doing whatever possible to stop contributing to climate change, it really frustrates me.

Cesarcollie · 14 Jan 2019

VioletEclipse said:
Yeah I just picked Lothian as they are the main subject here and they are my local company, but the same or similar applies to thousands of companies. I realise the tech over here is frustratingly slow, but I see no excuse for a company to buy brand new buses powered by diesel in 2019 when the climate crisis is (arguably) the most important issue there is. The main problem I see is that profit is STILL seen as more important in making business decisions than doing whatever possible to stop contributing to climate change, it really frustrates me.

Okay, putting infrastructure issues to one side, and assuming Edinburgh’s lights wouldn’t all go out at night if every Lothian bus plugged into the grid...... some simple economics. If Lothian is going to replace every bus in a short period with electric buses, it will face a huge capital cost, and one considerably higher than new diesel buses - and greater still than the value of the current fleet which will probably incur a loss on disposal. To meet that big extra capital cost - however financed - it will need significantly higher income to pay for it. I haven’t done the sums, so I don’t know the numbers, but let’s say it needs 20% more revenue after allowing for the fact that though costing more to buy, electric buses are (we are told) cheaper to run. So either the taxpayer in Edinburgh pays the difference (illegal as a subsidy, so could only be done instead by capital grants towards the buses), or fares have to rise by 20% - in reality probably more to allow for demand elasticity. Are the majority of passengers prepared to pay fares 20% higher? How many would abandon the bus and take the car - increasing congestion and.....er.....pollution! Not as simple as it all seems unfortunately!

flymo · 14 Jan 2019

NotATrainspott said:
Hong Kong will probably be the first British-style RHD territory to go fully electric but that might be through adopting mainland Chinese designs and practices.

Nope, never in a gajillion years. Electric buses here just don't work. Operators don't want them and unless the HK Govt mandates them (never going to happen) then they are at a dead end here. New Zealand has more chance I think.

VioletEclipse · 15 Jan 2019

Cesarcollie said:
Okay, putting infrastructure issues to one side, and assuming Edinburgh’s lights wouldn’t all go out at night if every Lothian bus plugged into the grid...... some simple economics. If Lothian is going to replace every bus in a short period with electric buses, it will face a huge capital cost, and one considerably higher than new diesel buses - and greater still than the value of the current fleet which will probably incur a loss on disposal. To meet that big extra capital cost - however financed - it will need significantly higher income to pay for it. I haven’t done the sums, so I don’t know the numbers, but let’s say it needs 20% more revenue after allowing for the fact that though costing more to buy, electric buses are (we are told) cheaper to run. So either the taxpayer in Edinburgh pays the difference (illegal as a subsidy, so could only be done instead by capital grants towards the buses), or fares have to rise by 20% - in reality probably more to allow for demand elasticity. Are the majority of passengers prepared to pay fares 20% higher? How many would abandon the bus and take the car - increasing congestion and.....er.....pollution! Not as simple as it all seems unfortunately!

That shows so well how economics prevents even the smallest progress in stopping emissions. Anyway, I agree that selling all their diesel buses and replacing them with electric isn't economically viable, and the environmental cost of producing almost 1000 new buses is another huge factor, probably the best thing Lothian can do right now IMO is to stop buying new buses altogether, and convert the fleet they have to electric (or another renewable zero-emission fuel, probably whichever is cheaper), this would mean they weren't letting loads of old diesels run free with other companies, or producing tons of new metal, plastic and lithium for new buses, also it's pretty urgent that they do it, within the next 5-10 years at the latest.

flymo said:
Nope, never in a gajillion years. Electric buses here just don't work. Operators don't want them and unless the HK Govt mandates them (never going to happen) then they are at a dead end here. New Zealand has more chance I think.

Electric buses have their problems, it is true, but they are, so far, the most successful way of running less environmentally harmful buses. Diesel buses cannot continue at anything near the current number much longer (a matter of a few years), so something needs to replace them.

TheGrandWazoo · 15 Jan 2019

buslad1988 said:
Can I ask is there a reason why you are picking out Lothian in particular for not doing more to widen their electric fleet?

There does seem to be a fascination with Lothian on this forum recently (and indeed, Scotland in general).

VioletEclipse said:
Electric buses have their problems, it is true, but they are, so far, the most successful way of running less environmentally harmful buses. Diesel buses cannot continue at anything near the current number much longer (a matter of a few years), so something needs to replace them.

Depends how you measure that? In terms of localised emissions (on the street) then they are.... just that the environmental impact is moved elsewhere in terms of battery production etc.

VioletEclipse · 15 Jan 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
just that the environmental impact is moved elsewhere in terms of battery production etc.

I completely agree, electric buses are not, and have never been completely sustainable, the large scale mining and production of metals, plastics and lithium to build them have a very damaging impact, but mining for oils and producing diesel vehicles (not limited to buses) is just as harmful if not more, the main thing is that electric buses produce a lot less emission than their diesel equivalents, so they are an improvement, not a solution. The only solution I can see is to retain the current fleet and convert them to hydrogen, electric, or whatever is least harmful in the long run, and closing the inner city to diesel and petrol cars so more people will walk places, but that's definitely not Lothian's responsibility.

VioletEclipse · 15 Jan 2019

I realise I make it come across as is if I'm against electric buses, no I am very much pro-electric but I realise they are not perfect.

90019 · 15 Jan 2019

The two biggest issues that I can see currently are the range and charging facilities.

The range available from the current buses means that they would have to be swapped over at some point during the day as they have nowhere near enough range to cover an entire day's running (which they already have to do with the electric buses on the 1 and 24) so you'd have to significantly increase the size of the fleet to be able to cover all the buses out in service whilst having more sitting around during the day charging to be ready to go out when needed.

The charging facilities is also a big issue with space - putting in the charging points for the current electric buses has removed space for around 10 or so buses in the depot. Given how the buses get parked up at night, including using almost the entire car park outside, and with central already being at capacity, there literally isn't space to convert the whole depot to electric, let alone space to put in enough charging points.

VioletEclipse · 15 Jan 2019

90019 said:
there literally isn't space to convert the whole depot to electric, let alone space to put in enough charging points.

Thankfully there is a simple solution there, Lothian could buy a new depot (like they have with Newbridge) and install charging facilities, or an even better option IMO would be to install solar or wind powered charging points at termini, and as some routes don't have termini that you could install charging points at, buses would have to swap routes over the day and/or they would have to alter a lot of routes, but that is easily possible.

tbtc · 15 Jan 2019

buslad1988 said:
Can I ask is there a reason why you are picking out Lothian in particular for not doing more to widen their electric fleet?

I’d imagine the poor reliability of the electric single decks currently on the 1 has not done much to encourage them to purchase any more

That's a good question.

Whilst I certainly don't claim to know much about electric buses (and do feel that sometimes Lothian are criticised unfairly by enthusiasts because they hold them to significantly higher standards than other bus companies - e.g. the types who complain about having to ride on a ten year old bus, or are unhappy that they don't have carte blanche to wander around an empty double decker bus to take photos when the driver is trying to have a break and probably would rather have a fag and scan of their Daily Record than have to monitor an enthusiast trying to find the perfect angle of shot to reflect the seat fabric)...

...one reason why Lothian might be a good operator to take on a large number of electric vehicles is that a significant number of their routes involve one of six termini (Silverknowes/ Ocean Terminal in the north, the Gyle/ Herriot Watt in the west, the RIE in the south, the Jewel in the east).

So you have:

2 - Gyle - Jewel
4 - terminates at the Jewel
5 - terminates at the Jewel
7 - terminates at the RIE
8 - terminates at the RIE
11 - terminates at Ocean Terminal
12 - terminates at the Gyle
16 - terminates at Silverknowes
20 - passes through the Gyle
21 - terminates at the RIE, 50% of off-peak buses terminate at the Gyle in the other direction (and a larger number of peak duties terminate at the Gyle)
22 - Gyle - Ocean Terminal
24 - terminates at the RIE
25 - terminates at Herriot Watt
27 - terminates at Silverknowes
29 - terminates at Silverknowes
33 - passes through the RIE
34 - Herriot Watt - Ocean Terminal
35 - Herriot Watt - Ocean Terminal
36 - Gyle - Ocean Terminal
37 - terminates at Silverknowes
38 - terminates at the RIE
45 - terminates at Herriot Watt
49 - passes through the RIE (used to terminate at the Jewel but no longer!)
63 - terminates at Herriot Watt, passes through the Gyle
275 - passes through the Gyle
300 - passes through the Gyle
400 - passes through the Gyle

...so a significant number of services could be run with electric buses if there were the facilities at half a dozen termini in the city (maybe add the Scottish Gas place at Granton to get the northern ends of the 24/38/47/113?).

I don't know about the economics of electric buses, I do know that various "green" schemes have had a lot of initial publicity and then fizzled out five/ten years later (e.g. the E400H operated by Stagecoach down here in Sheffield are being converted into conventional E400s because the technology wasn't reliable/good enough).

All I'm saying is that, if I were looking for a test bed for electric buses, I'd consider looking at an operator who terminate a significant number of services at just a few out-of-town places, which would make it much easier to have charging facilities at just a handful of locations to power a significant proportion of the fleet.

flymo · 15 Jan 2019

As a total aside, I was in Zhuhai, China today and at the bus 'terminus' outside the ferry port there are street-side charging points for the electric buses in the Zhuhai fleet that terminate there, all single deckers and only 30-odd seaters. Probably 10 or so charging points spaced out over a couple of hundred metres . To be honest, this seems to work there as nobody touches them and there were a couple of buses plugged in.

Should have gotten a photo...

BBC · 15 Jan 2019

The 2 electric buses in Bristol seem to be broken down half the week, are they reliable enough for bus companies to invest millions and millions into them ?

VioletEclipse · 15 Jan 2019

tbtc said:
an enthusiast trying to find the perfect angle of shot to reflect the seat fabric)...

That would be me lol, but I don't see how it causes any disruption.

tbtc said:
one reason why Lothian might be a good operator to take on a large number of electric vehicles is that a significant number of their routes involve one of six termini (Silverknowes/ Ocean Terminal in the north, the Gyle/ Herriot Watt in the west, the RIE in the south, the Jewel in the east)... ...a significant number of services could be run with electric buses if there were the facilities at half a dozen termini in the city (maybe add the Scottish Gas place at Granton to get the northern ends of the 24/38/47/113?).

Silverknowes would have space, so would Ocean Terminal and the RIE, although it could be a bit different for Heriott Watt, the Gyle and the Jewel which have less space, although it would be no doubt impossible to do there as far as I'm aware.

ericlesley · 16 Jan 2019

I guess a lot of this discussion is imagining a Battery Electric Bus (BEB) as a like-for-like replacement for a diesel bus. The days when you can charge a bus once and run it all day are a long way off. However, flash charging throughout the day is very much viable. However there are major operational hurdles to overcome, such as getting the bus to the terminus at the correct time.

I think VioletEclipse is asking some really valid questions about the role of government in a 'private market'. Why will the Scottish Government essentially fund the class 385 fleet for Scotrail but not fund electric buses or electric bus infrastructure? Bus emissions are real and causing damage every single day and they could be addressed fairly quickly. Likewise, why will the Scottish Government give private individuals interest free loans to buy plug in cars but give minimal support to the bus industry to electrify?

mullac30 · 16 Jan 2019

Would it not be possible to have a battery/trolley bus hybrid that could trickle charge from the growing tram infrastructure whilst in use to increase range?

VioletEclipse · 16 Jan 2019

ericlesley said:
However there are major operational hurdles to overcome, such as getting the bus to the terminus at the correct time.

Sadly timetabling is something which would have to be altered to give buses huge amounts of leeway in time to get to the termini with the amount of congestion these days, caused largely by private car ownership which is something I will come on to talk about soon...

ericlesley said:
I think VioletEclipse is asking some really valid questions about the role of government in a 'private market'. Why will the Scottish Government essentially fund the class 385 fleet for Scotrail but not fund electric buses or electric bus infrastructure?

Thanks

I am not complaining about the government funding the Class 385s, partly why I'm here, I like trains. (ok, I am complaining because the class 314s are still serviceable AFAIK and building a whole new load of rolling stock then shipping them to the UK is a lot more environmentally damaging than keeping the class 314s in service, repairing them with parts from class 315s from London or from 314212 (now being broken up for spares) and so not replacing something that doesn't need replaced). Anyway, I do agree, the government are (for the current situation) verging on pathetic for the amount of green bus funding they are giving out to companies like Lothian. Although I do realise they are still doing a LOT better than numerous other governments I can think of, not mentioning any names though...

ericlesley said:
Bus emissions are real and causing damage every single day and they could be addressed fairly quickly. Likewise, why will the Scottish Government give private individuals interest free loans to buy plug in cars but give minimal support to the bus industry to electrify?

So true! The number of people who think that buses are 'completely green' even when they aren't, but even a diesel bus is far, far better than even three of the passengers driving private cars instead. Private cars are hardly green in any way, euro 6 makes hardly any difference as so many people drive fuel guzzling SUVs and crossover things these days, and even electric cars, while they are definitely so much better than diesel or petrol cars, still cause the same problems with production (shocking amounts of plastic on top of aluminium, glass, lithium (for EVs) and the rest) and congestion. Internal combustion engine or battery powered, all cars cause congestion, and this creates so many problems. Timetabling buses accurately would be so much more easy if there was less congestion, meaning that charging buses at termini would be much more viable than it currently is, making companies like Lothian more likely to invest in it (hopefully with government funding). It would make buses a lot greener too.

mullac30 said:
Would it not be possible to have a battery/trolley bus hybrid that could trickle charge from the growing tram infrastructure whilst in use to increase range?

That is a good idea, having buses fitted with pantographs, so that they can recharge while travelling along York Place, Princes Street and Shandwick Place (and possibly Leith Walk/Newhaven if it is extended) using the existing network to get a bit more charge, but it's not enough to completely recharge a bus at present.

VioletEclipse · 16 Jan 2019

Just realised that is an extremely long post...

radamfi · 16 Jan 2019

90019 said:
The range available from the current buses means that they would have to be swapped over at some point during the day as they have nowhere near enough range to cover an entire day's running (which they already have to do with the electric buses on the 1 and 24) so you'd have to significantly increase the size of the fleet to be able to cover all the buses out in service whilst having more sitting around during the day charging to be ready to go out when needed.

What about the fully electric buses that operate in London? Don't they run for the whole day?

ericlesley · 16 Jan 2019

LivingBelowYM said:
What about the fully electric buses that operate in London? Don't they run for the whole day?

Sorry, should've made this clear when I said like-for-like performance. At the moment there aren't any battery electric buses that can match a diesel bus in terms of capacity and range. 1KWh of battery storage is roughly £1000, so in order to facilitate extended range the bus becomes prohibitively expensive (you're looking at £250k just for the battery pack). Add to this batteries are very heavy, so the net result is capacity removed to make space for the battery packs. The biggest battery packs on the market today provide roughly 250km range (but this is dependent on many variables: mostly ambient temperature, topography and driving style. As Edinburgh is the example here, it is unlikely such a vehicle could meet this performance in the cold winter and with the hilly terrain.

mullac30 said:
Would it not be possible to have a battery/trolley bus hybrid that could trickle charge from the growing tram infrastructure whilst in use to increase range?

What you've described there is a trolley bus that uses 'In Motion Charging'.. If you look back to my earlier posts there are some videos demonstrating this. I have seen some reports from Stockholm and Berlin where they are seriously considering installing discontinuous trolleybus overhead on their busiest routes as battery electric buses can't match the required performance.

radamfi · 16 Jan 2019

ericlesley said:
I think VioletEclipse is asking some really valid questions about the role of government in a 'private market'. Why will the Scottish Government essentially fund the class 385 fleet for Scotrail but not fund electric buses or electric bus infrastructure?

Buses are considered to be largely commercial entities, even if the bus company is owned by the council like in the case of Edinburgh. The current legislation allows them to run buses until the end of time, but in return, they are supposed to be self-supporting. On the other hand, the railway is centrally planned and governed. It may be branded as "rail privatisation" to appear capitalist but broadly speaking the government pays the train companies to run the train service for them for a limited amount of time.

How quickly can Lothian go 100% Electric?

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