Conflicting advice re. Virgin delayed train

trainophile · 16 Jan 2019

The 0901 Carlisle to Edinburgh (Ex-BHM but cancelled to Wolverhampton) departed 40 late, so I will miss my 1033 connection to Dundee at Haymarket, and will have to get the Scotrail 1106, arriving Dundee about 40 late. This is doubly annoying as I was looking forward to a bit of LNER 1st Class, as I don’t get the chance very often.

It’s only a day trip and I had only planned a couple of hours in Dundee, mainly because the only Advance ticket left for my return was 1355. Still, two hours would have been okay.

Asking for advice at the Carlisle ticket desk, I was told I would be fine to get a later inbound train at Haymarket, but to depart Dundee later I would have to buy a new ticket, and it couldn’t be guaranteed that I would be able to claim it back. So I resigned myself to an hour’s dash around Dundee!

I happened to mention the situation to the guard on the late running VT, and he said of course it would be okay to come back on a later service than that on my Advance ticket, as Scotrail will be aware of the inbound delay. He even wrote on the back of my ticket “delayed, please allow travel”.

I’m going to go for it and get the 1452 at Dundee, but wondered why they were adamant in the ticket office that that would require a new ticket.

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Romilly · 16 Jan 2019

If it were me, I would make the most of 90 minutes in Dundee and come back on my booked 1355 train. Anything else requires too much explaining and too much exercise of discretion.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jan 2019

They are correct, there is no right to delay the return half because the outbound half is delayed. This is a bit silly in a way but it is true.

FWIW, if you miss your connection you are only entitled to travel on the next train of the same TOC i.e. tomorrow's LNER service. However, as is sensible discretion is being used to allow you to use ScotRail instead.

trainophile · 16 Jan 2019

So the guard is wrong then? He seemed very confident.

Shell · 16 Jan 2019

Technically speaking, your two Advance tickets are separate and not dependent on each other. In practice, there's a fair bit of discretion available to guards - in a somewhat similar situation, I had two advances in order to get to my destination as I wanted to go shopping in an intermediate city, and due to delays I decided not to go shopping and asked a guard permission to stay on until my final destination, which they agreed to.

The difference here is that you'd be joining a train at Dundee *hoping* without being able to ask anyone first, that either what the VT guard said and wrote down constitutes "permission to travel" on the later service and the ScotRail guard agrees, or the ScotRail guard is lenient. If they don't agree, you're going to have to pay for a new Anytime ticket to Carlisle.

trainophile · 16 Jan 2019

The guy on the doors at Haymarket was equally convinced that when there’s disruption restrictions are generally lifted.

I just spoke to the Scotrail guard on my train from Haymarket and he says although he can’t guarantee it, if it was him he would be okay about me getting a later train back.

ForTheLoveOf · 16 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
They are correct, there is no right to delay the return half because the outbound half is delayed. This is a bit silly in a way but it is true.

FWIW, if you miss your connection you are only entitled to travel on the next train of the same TOC i.e. tomorrow's LNER service. However, as is sensible discretion is being used to allow you to use ScotRail instead.

Because the next service of the same TOC is tomorrow, the passenger is, effectively, stranded. Thus the provisions of NRCoT 28.2 come into effect and any TOC in a position to do so (e.g. Scotrail) is obliged to render the passenger assistance.

So there is no question of discretion on the outward journey - it is Scotrail's contractual obligation to convey OP to Dundee.

trainophile said:
So the guard is wrong then? He seemed very confident.

The guard probably wasn't obliged to endorse your return ticket. But that is something that is within his discretion to do, and he has decided to do it. It doesn't matter whether it is considered wrong or not, he has exercised the discretion and your ticket is valid for (reasonable) later travel than booked. If you were originally scheduled to have 2.5 hours, then I would say it is perfectly reasonable, given the endorsement, to still spend 2.5 hours in Dundee.

Shell said:
Technically speaking, your two Advance tickets are separate and not dependent on each other. In practice, there's a fair bit of discretion available to guards - in a somewhat similar situation, I had two advances in order to get to my destination as I wanted to go shopping in an intermediate city, and due to delays I decided not to go shopping and asked a guard permission to stay on until my final destination, which they agreed to.

The difference here is that you'd be joining a train at Dundee *hoping* without being able to ask anyone first, that either what the VT guard said and wrote down constitutes "permission to travel" on the later service and the ScotRail guard agrees, or the ScotRail guard is lenient. If they don't agree, you're going to have to pay for a new Anytime ticket to Carlisle.

They are indeed two separate tickets and two separate contracts as a base position, but the endorsement is a prime example of "permission to board without a valid ticket" if there ever was one. If OP is 'chinged' at any point along their journey there would be a strong argument that that is a breach of contract, given the endorsement, and thus they can recover any fare charged from the charging TOC. I would be more than happy to assist OP in this if it is necessary.

robbeech · 16 Jan 2019

Is there only that one LNER between Haymarket and Dundee today?

(I know it doesn’t change things as this is a day trip and the next service may be several hours later)

trainophile · 16 Jan 2019

Thank you all for your valued opinions. I really didn’t want to dash into Dundee town, by which time I would pretty much have to come back again. I had thought of doing the V&A today but had already postponed this to another trip in March when I will have longer.

Regardless of the return aspect, I will claim 50% for the 40 minutes outbound delay, and wondering if there’s anything further I might be entitled to as there’s no 1st Class on this (2-coach!) Arbroath Scotrail. I don’t suppose they view disappointment as a reason to throw money around!

ForTheLoveOf · 16 Jan 2019

trainophile said:
Thank you all for your valued opinions. I really didn’t want to dash into Dundee town, by which time I would pretty much have to come back again. I had thought of doing the V&A today but had already postponed this to another trip in March when I will have longer.

Regardless of the return aspect, I will claim 50% for the 40 minutes outbound delay, and wondering if there’s anything further I might be entitled to as there’s no 1st Class on this (2-coach!) Arbroath Scotrail. I don’t suppose they view disappointment as a reason to throw money around!

No, it's certainly a valid reason to claim a partial refund, of the difference between the equivalent price of the first class and the standard class fares you would have paid. As, presumably, you didn't take a screenshot or otherwise record what the available standard class Advance tier price was at the time of booking, you'll have to go by what the equivalent tiers are - e.g. if you have an Advance that costed £55.00 (without Railcard discount), that would be a V1Q tier Advance (Virgin's are alphabetically priced from A, most expensive, to Z, cheapest). So the equivalent standard class Advance (V2Q) would have costed £20.00 (without Railcard discount), so you'd be entitled to that difference.

Note that the NRCoT only guarantee the difference to the cheapest standard class single that would have been available at the booking office immediately prior to travel. But I would be pretty sure in saying that that is not an enforceable term in view of the fact that not providing first class, where first class has been promised and is part of the contract, the appropriate difference is payable. Otherwise what on earth have you paid the extra for?!

island · 16 Jan 2019

The OP presumably still enjoyed first class between Carlisle and Haymarket, so would not be entitled to the full difference, only a reasonable proportion.

trainophile · 16 Jan 2019

That’s right, and I was glad of my breakfast after 40 minutes hanging around! I am not too bothered about the Std-1st difference as it sounds too complicated!

Update - had a Twitter chat with Scotrail while darting around Dundee, including photos of my tickets both sides to show the endorsement - not easy balancing them on someone’s wheely bin in a stiff breeze to get a picture - and the upshot was “that’s perfectly fine”.

But in the event I tossed a mental coin whether to do an hour in the V&A or catch the 1355, and the latter won :rolleyes:

. Hopefully not a wasted thread though, as there’s good information for any future readers.

Funny how at no time has anyone mentioned that I might have had an issue with my subsequent connection from Glasgow Central at 1600 had I got the later train. It’s almost as if they knew that I had succumbed to temptation yesterday and bought an Advance 1st back to Carlisle on the 1730 :oops:

. I had already planned to have a mooch around Glasgow and didn’t want to curtail that.

Happy now, I’ve had my beloved trips across the Forth and the Tay, in glorious sunshine too. Thanks again for everyone’s help and advice.

route101 · 16 Jan 2019

Once back last year there was late running northbound at Warrington and i asked on twitter if i could use an earlier service and the answer was no

Haywain · 16 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW, if you miss your connection you are only entitled to travel on the next train of the same TOC i.e. tomorrow's LNER service.

I do not believe this is true in the circumstances where, if I have understood correctly, the ticket will have been routed "VT & Connections". The entitlement to travel on the next train of the same TOC would only apply for the part of the journey with a specific TOC restriction. As Virgin do not operate between Haymarket and Dundee there can be no such restriction to the segment of the journey.

ForTheLoveOf · 17 Jan 2019

Haywain said:
I do not believe this is true in the circumstances where, if I have understood correctly, the ticket will have been routed "VT & Connections". The entitlement to travel on the next train of the same TOC would only apply for the part of the journey with a specific TOC restriction. As Virgin do not operate between Haymarket and Dundee there can be no such restriction to the segment of the journey.

If there were further services of the same TOC the same day, then even though the Advance's route restriction would not be restricting the use of a ScotRail service, the NRCoT could be seen to (as it does indeed refer to the same TOC as you were originally booked on). So the route restriction technically speaking only comes into effect for the purposes of booking the ticket, and determining which TOCs you may or may not use for unreserved legs of the journey.

However, unless the next service of the same TOC was reasonably soon, it would be very unusual to be denied the ability to take the next available service (whatever TOC operates that service). There might even be a case for breach of the implied duty of reasonable care and skill if the delaying TOC didn't make reasonable efforts to secure expeditious ticket acceptance, where the next service by the same TOC as originally booked was significantly later (e.g. in the case of a Hull Trains or Grand Central service being cancelled).

Camden · 17 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
They are correct, there is no right to delay the return half because the outbound half is delayed. This is a bit silly in a way but it is true.

What if by the time you arrived on your outbound train, your return one had already left!...

If the tickets for a day out were bought together, is it not arguable that the journey constitutes one whole? It is often referred to as "the return part/portion/leg of your journey"

Bletchleyite · 17 Jan 2019

Camden said:
What if by the time you arrived on your outbound train, your return one had already left!...

That is an interesting question. I really don't know. It could be seen as a split, or as a separate journey?

MichaelAMW · 17 Jan 2019

Camden said:
What if by the time you arrived on your outbound train, your return one had already left!...

If the tickets for a day out were bought together, is it not arguable that the journey constitutes one whole? It is often referred to as "the return part/portion/leg of your journey"

This is exactly my own concern about this kind of problem and I believe the "Railway" should allow you all of your time at your destination because the ticketing arrangements encourage or even require the purchase of two separate tickets. The alternative is to say that I have to "insure" myself against the TOC's delays by buying a £100 walk-on fare as opposed to two £25 Advance tickets.

island · 17 Jan 2019

Advance tickets are only issued as singles, not returns (with the exception of a few VT oddities). If you want flexibility, walk-up fares exist. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

Bletchleyite · 17 Jan 2019

island said:
Advance tickets are only issued as singles, not returns (with the exception of a few VT oddities). If you want flexibility, walk-up fares exist. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

I don't think it's fair to say he wants flexibility. What he wants is the amount of time at his destination that was specified in the contract by way of the agreed train times.

Personally, I'd follow the way easyjet.com works - if the outbound journey is delayed beyond a certain reasonableness threshold (let's say 30 minutes), the return journey should become fully flexible (on the same day as ticketed), with discretion to extend that to the following day if desired.

ForTheLoveOf · 17 Jan 2019

island said:
You cannot have your cake and eat it.

The moral justifiability (or otherwise) of combining two cheaper single tickets, where a more expensive return is available, has no bearing on the legal position.

island said:
If you want flexibility, walk-up fares exist.

I don't think anyone's looking for flexibility if they book an Advance. But it's not unreasonable to book two tickets to and from a place you want to visit for a few hours, and then to expect the railway to bring you there when they have told you they would do. What is unreasonable is if, having delayed you on your way to your destination, the railway then say you have to buy a brand new ticket, just so you can spend the same amount of time you were originally supposed to have there.

If anything, the most unreasonable thing out there is that, on a lot of routes, the only possible way in which typical journeys are affordable is to book Advances. Whenever fare rises of any kind are announced, train companies defend the ridiculous level of a lot of walk-up fares by saying "ah, but you can get cheap Advances". So Advances are supposed to be the kind of product the average non-business traveller is expected to use.

Unfortunately the rules, as they are written, don't make clear one way or another whether they intend a journey to be able to include a 'mandatory' break in the middle, or whether a circular 'journey' is a journey within the ambit of Condition 14. Something like that can ultimately only be decided by an independent authority of some kind, e.g. the Rail Ombudsman or a Court.

Bletchleyite · 17 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
The moral justifiability (or otherwise) of combining two cheaper single tickets, where a more expensive return is available, has no bearing on the legal position.

Not least because that is how the railway encourages you to purchase a return journey. We aren't talking splits, we're talking a return journey made up of two Advance tickets purchased in the same transaction. This is how the railway would sell all tickets if it could, I reckon.

gray1404 · 17 Jan 2019

I try to make sure that if I am booking two advance tickets to form a round trip journey in the same day, try to book them within the same booking online and, if possible, with the TOC I feel I might have the most problems with when travelling. Then it is easier to claim that you booked your tickets together in one transaction to form a day trip and it was clear what your intentions are.

Camden · 17 Jan 2019

island said:
Advance tickets are only issued as singles, not returns (with the exception of a few VT oddities). If you want flexibility, walk-up fares exist. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

There's not much point in having a cake unless you plan to eat it. Display cakes aren't really a thing

Advance tickets are bought as singles, yes. But use a combination of them to get from A to B and in the case of delay or cancellation your affected tickets (covering the whole of your "journey") are still protected to allow you travel as you need to. So it's not that straightforward.

Conflicting advice re. Virgin delayed train

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