That's interesting. Is that likely to be instead of, or as well as the Saturdays?
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Northern writing to ACAS requesting independent inquiry
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That's interesting. Is that likely to be instead of, or as well as the Saturdays?
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Bantamzen
Established Member
Sorry but as you'll realise I don't, the statement talks about the future role of the second crew member & the feasibility of DCO. That to me says that all options are open for discussion. DfT / Arriva may want to go towards DCO, but that doesn't mean the inquiry will conclude this. But we could go around these circles for a long time, the ball in firmly in RMT's court now. They have to decide whether to blink and at least try, or simply carry on unsuccessfully as they are doing right now.
It'd be a (Sunday given the voluntary nature) Monday to Saturday, and that would be it for the month. The overriding thought is after 6 months, other than that week before Christmas, it's not really had a huge impact, at least as far as Manchester Piccadilly is concerned.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
You show touching naivety. An honest and independent review explicitly rules all options in and has clear terms of reference. If your view was correct the statement would read to that effect. It does not. Why does it not? If you were correct the enquiry would also look at no change. Do you think it will?
It is clear what this is. It is a ploy to win the pr battle. It is NOT a genuine attempt to resolve this dispute.
RMT attending this enquiry simply hands the pr initiative to the DfT. Once in they cant leave without being attacked for derailing the process which it transpires ( who knew?) Does not include ALL options. If they dont go in they are selfish wreckers.
Btw I am entirely in favour of a an open and independent enquiry resolving this issue. That is not being offered here.
Agreed that is exactly what is going on here @DarloRich.
Confused52
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The statement only says what Northern's objectives for it are but goes on to say,
"The chairperson would initially ask Northern and RMT to agree a Terms of Reference, which will set out the full scope of the inquiry. The chairperson would then investigate with appropriate stakeholders, who they believe are best placed, to give evidence on the topics within the scope of the inquiry. This could include customer groups, business groups, accessibility bodies and the rail industry. Following consideration of all evidence, the chairperson will write a report that sets out their findings and conclusions."
This is new compared to what we have heard before in that it points out that the scope is not fixed. Indeed the Act permits ACAS to make observations and recommendations that apply to the whole rail industry if they feel it would be beneficial. That is why it includes the term "rail industry" in the quote from the statement.
For those who think or say but it would have included 'my favourite issue' in the statement I would point out that since the terms of reference are to be agreed by the ACAS chairman along with the protagonists it would be less than wise to give anything other than the obvious minimum before starting to negotiate the Terms of Reference.
The RMT can just as easily be attacked for not co-operating as walking away. However the killer argument is that the inquiry is independent and not binding. If the RMT are really able to show that safety is unacceptably compromised then they have nothing to lose. If they do not take part they will be accused of knowing that their case was false. Without taking part RMT loses control of the PR battle so I would expect it to drag out reluctantly agreeing to participate.
If it were to happen it could resolve the dispute by giving one side or the other clear justification, I do not see why this is not a sensible step forward to find a resolution but I don't have a fixed position other that wanting the trains to every day of the week.
Bantamzen
Established Member
So if one that is set to be run by ACAS isn't independent, with them deciding who will present to it what is & who should run it? And if this is a PR battle, who do you think will win? Arriva offering this or RMT standing fast? Quite honestly anything short of an all-out-until-resolution strike is now very, very likely to fail. Public support is waning, and any escalation in action is going to start hitting guards hard financially so a prolonged spell would quickly see staff starting to cross the picket lines.
The real naivety in all this is RMT's top table, still thinking they can use 1970's style action to get their way. Those days are long gone, the government have set the field so that both they & Arriva can simply ride this one out as it stands, although the government get off better than Arriva in the PR stakes. I'm not for a minute suggesting that there isn't game playing on their side, this whole dispute has been like that from the off, but given all the options and the complete & utter failure of RMT to get anything from their action, this inquiry is by far the best and only option for them to at least have a say & represent their member's interests. The top table have nothing to lose right now, so a small gesture & a commitment to this is not a lot to ask. As I said any findings & recommendations can be put back to their membership for them to decide. Failure to at least give it a go is a failure on their part and to their members.
This was my point on recent threads. Do something different if they have to continue with it. The ridiculous cold war of Saturday only strikes - that many would rather not work anyway and can make the money up elsewhere - is getting them nowhere.
At least if they added a full week or something it's a genuine sacrifice they're making.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suspect so, and I think that does suit quite a lot of people, passengers excepted. That said, if they want to force this to come to a head, in my view the only way to do that will be an all-out strike - i.e. down tools indefinitely until Northern concede to retain guards. Even switching one day a week onto a weekday won't be enough for that in my view, it wasn't in latter-day Silverlink where the TOC just gave up, said "we're not negotiating" and sat it out with weekly, random-day working day strikes for a month or three (I forget exactly how long) until the change to LM forced it to stop (as the dispute was not with them).
There is of course a risk to that, though, that a solution like the coal mines (close a massive chunk of it down entirely) or Merseyside dockers (sack the lot and recruit afresh with short term contracts reflecting an impending abolition of the grade) is the option Arriva and the Government then choose to pursue.
Or Northern could do something a little better and contract in a comprehensive replacement bus network that is a genuine replacement, and go from there.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There isn't another English basket case financially like Northern.
That could be the case - in which case why not state it explicitly and set everyone's mind at rest.
I must admit, I can't argue with them there.
An entirely manufactured "basket case" due entirely to how the network was split up.
That could be risky if the Government decide that bustitution will do permanently.
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No danger of that at present. Very few or no bus replacement services run. It's a stark contrast to other operators who have run buses in great numbers to help customers during industrial action. Not at Northern.
True, there's not much in the way of replacement at the moment.
Well. Sort of. An Arriva bus driver in Liverpool wouldn't accept my train ticket to St Helens. "We aren't part of Northern"...
Bantamzen
Established Member
Maybe because they receive very large subsidies from the government, and do not want, or more likely cannot be seen to be bending too much towards the RMT demands. This is the nature of this dispute, as I have said previously it is not just about the future roles of the guards anymore, it has passed into an ideological battle between the Conservative government and a large union.
Or indeed if your area has the spare capacity to provide all those extra buses in the first place. Much of the area covered by Northern does not.
How is evaluating all options "bending too much towards RMT demands" ?
I would have thought an independent evaluation of the options was in everyone's interest, including passengers.
Tom Quinne
On Moderation
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I wonder how much Northern are saving in wages of striking guards, fuel and wear on the units as the majority won’t be used in traffic?
You could suggest Northen dont really care as we all know their not really rolling in cash, the longer the dispute carries on the more money they save.
You could suggest Northen dont really care as we all know their not really rolling in cash, the longer the dispute carries on the more money they save.
Bantamzen
Established Member
It isn't, and I don't think the statement made by Northern rules out evaluating all options. But the wording has been carefully written so as not to give the government the impression that the RMT has ground them down.
This is of course just my opinion, but one that is based on experience in my time as a union rep. Sometimes you have to learn to read between the lines, to see when a small move can lead to more. Some will disagree, and that is fair enough but if I were a member of the RMT top table, I would not dismiss this so easily as some might.
If the Government isn't prepared to countenance the wording "an evaluation of all the options", it suggests its not prepared to undertake such an option.
Don't get me wrong, the RMT should turn up and show willing. I can see why they might be sceptical though.
Indeed. No service at my station and no bus alternative. We can pay circa £5 for a return bus to another station with a limited service. Well and truly left to rot by Northern every strike day.
WatcherZero
Established Member
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The ACAS independent inquiry process requires both parties to agree the terms of reference before starting. At the moment though RMT aren't even willing to talk to ACAS about them.
Yes, as far as I'm aware Arriva buses in my part of the world accept tickets valid on Northern (and interestingly when the bus strike was on a week ago Northern accepted Arriva bus tickets!) on strike days. But I've often wondered whether that has percolated down to individual bus drivers. But neither the bus side of Arriva or the rail side of Arriva appear able to keep their websites up to date to reflet this! The Northern Strike FAQ refers to Arriva buses accepting rail ticket for December strike dates whilst the Arriva bus website references strikes in November!
As I said, they should turn up and show willing.
I've had no problems in West Yorkshire yet, used a couple the Saturday just gone in fact, even boarding at stops nowhere near rail stations! Some drivers have admitted they don't really know how to 'log' on their ticket machine that I'm using a rail ticket though so just wave me on basically!
It would be interesting to see Northern's response should an Arriva bus driver insist you buy a bus ticket and then you sent that in to Northern for reimbursement of course!
WatcherZero
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Less than they are missing out in revenue. They are still having to pay all the fixed costs as well as leasing charges and all non-guard staff.
Forget the Saturday strikes, when are they going to end the Sunday cancellations and cr*p service from Monday to Friday!?
There's only so much people, like myself, can take!
If I'm planning on getting a Northern train service, on a Thursday afternoon for example, I shouldn't have to check an hour beforehand to see if it's running, and then check every 5 mins for the next hour to see if it's been delayed or cancelled in case I might have to look for an alternative form of transport, namely the bus!
There's only so much people, like myself, can take!
If I'm planning on getting a Northern train service, on a Thursday afternoon for example, I shouldn't have to check an hour beforehand to see if it's running, and then check every 5 mins for the next hour to see if it's been delayed or cancelled in case I might have to look for an alternative form of transport, namely the bus!
Bantamzen
Established Member
Being sceptical is fine, in fact as a union important. It means that a union would pour over the fine details of any outcome to ensure they get the best that they can to present to their members. But as you say they should turn up.
I have seen Northern tickets accepted on both Arriva and Arriva subsidiaries like Flying/Yorkshire tiger. And there have been posters on both so it must be getting through to most if not all.
underbank
Established Member
I very nearly had a breakdown back in July for the same thing. My wife was undergoing chemotherapy and I had planned to take my daughter to London one Sunday by train to as a treat for missing out on a big holiday we'd had to cancel. It's bad enough the earliest train south was from Preston at a ridiculously late 11am (yes, not Nothern's fault). I'd booked for the 9.30 (ish) from Northern from Carnforth to Preston. I checked online late Saturday afternoon to check the train times, and the 9.30 Carnforth to Preston had disappeared from Network Rail's site, and also realtimetrains. There was no alternative train to get me to Preston in time. A later train would mean it would be pointless to even bother going. So, I tried to get confirmation from Northern as to whether there'd be rail replacement buses - no answer to phone, no answer to twitter/facebook posts. I ended up spending Saturday evening trying to find out parking prices at Preston station in case we had to drive, and trying to phone friends/family to see if someone could give us a lift. All that caused a sleepless night, blood pressure through the roof, and needing an emergency GP appointment on Sunday morning for panic attacks and palpatations. Northern and the unions just don't appreciate the stress and inconvenience they are causing by firstly providing a crap service in the first place, made worse by unions playing politics. It'll be a long time before I use the railways for anything important again. Bad enough that they're unreliable, but a complete lack of customer service and information is just taking the mickey. Yes, I accept, it sounds extreme, but at the time, dealing with a wife with cancer, and the prospect of a ruined special day for my daughter, the stress of a useless rail firm just pushes you over the edge.
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