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Class 455s on the Mole Valley Line between Dorking and Horsham.

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Does anyone know if any class 455s are used on the Mole Valley Line between Dorking and Horsham these days? I used to see them a lot but i haven't seen one on this line for ages so i am wondering if they still operate here?

Many thanks.
 
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No they don't partly I imagine because they would require guards between Dorking and Horsham

It's a pretty recent change
 

swt_passenger

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There were no 455 movements at Horsham in the Dec 2017 timetable, may well have been earlier.
 
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Many thanks for confirming. I guess Southern are trying to introduce as much DOO as possible. Do the Selhurst Guards still even sign 455s? Also do the Leatherhead to Guildford services get them any more or are those all 377s now as well?
 

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Many thanks for confirming. I guess Southern are trying to introduce as much DOO as possible. Do the Selhurst Guards still even sign 455s? Also do the Leatherhead to Guildford services get them any more or are those all 377s now as well?
AFAIK leatherhead to Guildford requires a guard regardless of traction same as Clapham to Milton keynes
 

TEW

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AFAIK leatherhead to Guildford requires a guard regardless of traction same as Clapham to Milton keynes
That's correct. All the Guildford services are formed 10-377 now.
 
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Just out of interest why do the Southern class 377 services between Leatherhead and Guildford require a Guard?
 

swt_passenger

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Just out of interest why do the Southern class 377 services between Leatherhead and Guildford require a Guard?
With only 3 each way per day, and the service being slated for withdrawal very soon, (probably next December) it isn't worth changing now. When it came up in discussion before it wasn't ever categorically explained, but I think they would need NR to upgrade station lighting along the route. This was done prior to DOO operation at a number of stations towards Portsmouth and Southampton.
 
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Many thanks. I wasn't aware that these services were being withdrawn. Hopefully there will be some extra SWT services introduced to and from London Waterloo so that the remaining ones don't get more overcrowded. I guess as you say there it is not worth removing Guards with it being withdrawn soon.

Also just one other question. Is that once a day Southern 377 train that calls at Bursledon / Hamble / Netley / Sholing / Woolston / Bitterne / St Denys stations (05:54 London Victoria to Southampton Central 08:52) currently DOO? Or does that service still need a Guard? I am just wondering if they would have bothered with lighting upgrades at these stations for just one train a day.
 

swt_passenger

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Many thanks. I wasn't aware that these services were being withdrawn. Hopefully there will be some extra SWT services introduced to and from London Waterloo so that the remaining ones don't get more overcrowded. I guess as you say there it is not worth removing Guards with it being withdrawn soon.
SWR insiders have previously posted that the withdrawal is to make space for additional SWR services
Also just one other question. Is that once a day Southern 377 train that calls at Bursledon / Hamble / Netley / Sholing / Woolston / Bitterne / St Denys stations (05:54 London Victoria to Southampton Central 08:52) currently DOO? Or does that service still need a Guard? I am just wondering if they would have bothered with lighting upgrades at these stations for just one train a day.
They did include all those stations at the same time as the others.
 
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Many thanks for the information. Good to hear that they will be replaced with more services to and from London Waterloo instead.
 

Bikeman78

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There were no 455 movements at Horsham in the Dec 2017 timetable, may well have been earlier.
The last 455 to Horsham was in May 2018. There were only three a day but I think all trains south of Dorking had a guard. Not sure if that is still the case.
 

swt_passenger

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The last 455 to Horsham was in May 2018. There were only three a day but I think all trains south of Dorking had a guard. Not sure if that is still the case.
Ah, I was only going by the Dec 2017 CWNs. Perhaps they were ahead of what was happening in reality.
 

GW43125

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Ah, I was only going by the Dec 2017 CWNs. Perhaps they were ahead of what was happening in reality.
They were indeed. I had 455802 on the Victoria-Horsham that leaves just before 8am (2E12) on 6th April 2018, it was a booked move at the time.

However in that timetable period the only booked workings were that and return, as well as one return working leaving Victoria around 4pm.
2E12 was also the only 455 to run fast Dorking to Horsham.
 

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No they don't partly I imagine because they would require guards between Dorking and Horsham

It's a pretty recent change

Correct - as there are no DOO monitors at the intermediate stops between Dorking and Horsham, 455s would need conductors. Unfortunately this could not happen now, as route knowledge has officially been withdrawn south of Dorking for SN conductors. (Leatherhead-Dorking is still signed as a diversionary option if the Guildfords encounter problems, as any such service would technically be conductor-worked beyond Leatherhead, whichever of the two routes it took.)

It used to be the case that this route needed guards / conductors for all trains for reasons related to the signalling as well as for dispatching passenger services. (This included ECS moves, for example.) I believe this now only applies to freight trains with four-wheeled wagons in the consist, but the chance of that ever actually happening is probably virtually nil.

There were no 455 movements at Horsham in the Dec 2017 timetable, may well have been earlier.

There definitely were, as other posters mentioned already.

AFAIK leatherhead to Guildford requires a guard regardless of traction same as Clapham to Milton keynes

Correct (though on the West London, only Southern services need guards from Falcon Jn to Mitre Bridge Jn). Southern services on both routes are now exclusively 377s.

With only 3 each way per day, and the service being slated for withdrawal very soon, (probably next December) it isn't worth changing now. When it came up in discussion before it wasn't ever categorically explained, but I think they would need NR to upgrade station lighting along the route. This was done prior to DOO operation at a number of stations towards Portsmouth and Southampton.

Yes, it’s to do with the lighting and also dispatch procedures at Guildford. Southern actually ran a DOO “test train” down to Guildford once - never to be repeated, however.

The last 455 to Horsham was in May 2018. There were only three a day but I think all trains south of Dorking had a guard. Not sure if that is still the case.

No, only 455s had conductors from Winter 2016/17 through to May 2018. The rest (377s) were given OBSs, as remains the case for all services south of Dorking today.

They were indeed. I had 455802 on the Victoria-Horsham that leaves just before 8am (2E12) on 6th April 2018, it was a booked move at the time.

However in that timetable period the only booked workings were that and return, as well as one return working leaving Victoria around 4pm.
2E12 was also the only 455 to run fast Dorking to Horsham.

2E12 was a cracking run. Rarely did it manage to do it exactly on time, but the trampoline sensation as the unit tried its best was quite something!
 

GW43125

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2E12 was a cracking run. Rarely did it manage to do it exactly on time, but the trampoline sensation as the unit tried its best was quite something!

You say that, but the only time I did it was with 5802, which is a crap unit!
Anyway, I digress.
 

Bikeman78

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How long ago was it that they stopped using the 319s on these services?
About 10 years ago I think. The slam door units finished in 2005 and 319s took over some of those workings to Horsham. It was only a few years after then that the Southern fleet moved to Thameslink.
 

Surreytraveller

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Many thanks for confirming. I guess Southern are trying to introduce as much DOO as possible. Do the Selhurst Guards still even sign 455s? Also do the Leatherhead to Guildford services get them any more or are those all 377s now as well?
There's a Shepherd's Bush terminator that I 'think' is 455? Or at least there was.
 
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Surreytraveller

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No they don't partly I imagine because they would require guards between Dorking and Horsham

It's a pretty recent change
I believe they only require a guard if they call at the intermediate stations. The workings before the May 2018 timetable change that were formed of 455s were non-stop Dorking to Horsham
 

Bikeman78

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I believe they only require a guard if they call at the intermediate stations. The workings before the May 2018 timetable change that were formed of 455s were non-stop Dorking to Horsham
From December 2017 to May 2018 there were three return trips from Victoria to Horsham worked by 455s. Only the morning run in the down direction was non stop, all the others stopped at Warnham, Ockley and Holmwood.
 

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I believe they only require a guard if they call at the intermediate stations. The workings before the May 2018 timetable change that were formed of 455s were non-stop Dorking to Horsham

Nope, not so. Conductors were rostered for all of them. DOO is only permitted on that part of the route for stock with bodyside cameras (and certain types of freight), regardless of where they call.
 

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Thus the longest distance booked 455 trips are now no more? The Waterloo/Victoria to Horshams used to be the longest distance regular 4SUB workings as well, I believe.
 

Surreytraveller

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Nope, not so. Conductors were rostered for all of them. DOO is only permitted on that part of the route for stock with bodyside cameras (and certain types of freight), regardless of where they call.
Fair enough. I thought both Dorking and Horsham have despatch staff, therefore don't require cameras. What if the cameras don't work - would 377s have to be taken out of service, then?
 

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Fair enough. I thought both Dorking and Horsham have despatch staff, therefore don't require cameras. What if the cameras don't work - would 377s have to be taken out of service, then?

Horsham and Dorking are both fine, and station staff still dispatch GTR services at both, it’s just the problem of intermediate stations between the two.

The operational notice never said anything about the functionality of the bodyside cameras, but obviously you couldn’t call between Dorking and Horsham without them. Regardless, the rule is what it is.

There was also a special procedure for manual SDO on 455s (where you had to lock out the rear 2 coaches on an 8 coach formation) between Dorking and Horsham which also required conductors to intervene. I believe I was actually involved in running the last such train, if my memory serves me correctly. There were no booked 8 coach services towards the end of 455 traction on the line, but it happened occasionally in emergencies.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Is it not the case that it doesn't matter if the train is booked to call at the intermediate stations or not, but they have to consider that it might have to for some unplanned reason?

Therefore... no 455s can be diagrammed, just in case?
 
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I was also originally thinking that but then Southern Rail do regularly run DOO services non stop and skip many stations when the cameras are broken so i don't think that is the reason.
 

Bikeman78

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I was also originally thinking that but then Southern Rail do regularly run DOO services non stop and skip many stations when the cameras are broken so i don't think that is the reason.
Likewise Thameslink sometimes ran 319s vice 377/387 on Bedford to Three Bridges trains. They missed out Coulsdon South and Merstham.
 
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