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Bus operators that have an exact fare policy.

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Tetchytyke

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My point was that people have been able to cope in the past, why not now?

I think there are a few reasons.

Firstly, if you don't use cash a lot, you're not going to have a lot of coins.

Secondly, if you don't have a lot of cash on you then you need to get money from an ATM. Finding an ATM that issues fivers is not easy. If the smallest note usually available is a tenner it causes issues.

Thirdly, bus companies don't advertise their fares so it's hard to know how much cash to have. Exact fare operators tend to have simple fare structures- NXWM charge a flat fare for journeys over one mile, Lothian only have one flat fare- which makes it easier to have the right money.
 
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PeterC

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My point was that people have been able to cope in the past, why not now? Prices may have gone up, but then we also have more & larger denomination coins in circulation weighing down people's pockets / purses.
.
Did they cope any better or was it a case of having to cope as fewer people had cars? The problems are the same, you got on with a half crown coin and the first you knew about the exact fare policy or the fare required was when the driver refused to change it for a shilling fare. Now its just the same issue with a fiver for a two pound fare, but more people have the option if saying "**** it" and driving.
 
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I don't think we really need to bother with change vouchers. It just makes it more complicating. We get given a large float before going out (a lot larger than what the big operators give their drivers) so it is only sometimes that we don't have enough change. Although i am sure we still get a few people purposely giving a £20 banknote for a £3 fare hoping to get a free ride (and they probably get disappointed on the times when we do have enough change on us).

I also think as Bletchleyite says it is a friendly policy as well. Sometimes people only have large banknotes on them and refusing them travel isn't really good customer service.

Contactless does make things easier for people with cards but i think a lot of a smaller bus operators won't want to spend all the money upgrading.

Where i work we are still using the Wayfarer 3 ticket machines which have no contactless capability and we have no plans to upgrade. I think a lot of smaller bus operators won't want to spend all the money buying newer machines to accept contactless payments. For many bus companies there are a lot more important things to spend money on.
 

WelshBluebird

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All you need aside from a £1/£2 coin is a single 50p along with a couple of 20p a 10p and a 5p. How hard is that.

So a max of what, 4 quid? What about singles that are more than that? I've been moaned at by a driver for trying to pay a fare of over a fiver with a £10 note before.

My point was that people have been able to cope in the past, why not now?

Times change.
People use cash less, so are much less likely to have changing floating about.
Bus fares have risen, meaning even single journeys are now much closer to the value of a note than a few coins.

And I'd also question the idea of "people coped in the past". That phrase is often used by people to complain about anything and everything in the modern world. And the usual answer is that actually people didn't cope. For more serious things (e.g. mental health etc) people actually suffered greatly. And for less serious things like bus fares, people have to deal with inconvenience and getting ripped off (especially where exact fare systems were in place).
 

Bantamzen

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I think there are a few reasons.

Firstly, if you don't use cash a lot, you're not going to have a lot of coins.

Secondly, if you don't have a lot of cash on you then you need to get money from an ATM. Finding an ATM that issues fivers is not easy. If the smallest note usually available is a tenner it causes issues.

Thirdly, bus companies don't advertise their fares so it's hard to know how much cash to have. Exact fare operators tend to have simple fare structures- NXWM charge a flat fare for journeys over one mile, Lothian only have one flat fare- which makes it easier to have the right money.

But if operators offer contactless, many of these people will simply use that. My point is that people who do still use cash a lot will more likely have change hanging around to use, but sometimes simply can't be bothered using or carrying it. I've seen it a lot over the years, they wave a large note to pay for a cheap fare, the driver says they can't change that right now, suddenly the change is found.

Did they cope any better or was it a case of having to cope as fewer people had cars? The problems are the same, you got on with a half crown coin and the first you knew about the exact fare policy or the fare required was when the driver refused to change it for a shilling fare. Now its just the same issue with a fiver for a two pound fare, but more people have the option if saying "**** it" and driving.

I don't think so, people just got used to having some change on them to use on the buses. It wasn't hard then, I don't think its got any harder now. And lets face it, how many car parks are there where you have to buy a ticket on arrival, and the machines only use cash? Same problem, different circumstances.

I don't think we really need to bother with change vouchers. It just makes it more complicating. We get given a large float before going out (a lot larger than what the big operators give their drivers) so it is only sometimes that we don't have enough change. Although i am sure we still get a few people purposely giving a £20 banknote for a £3 fare hoping to get a free ride (and they probably get disappointed on the times when we do have enough change on us).

I also think as Bletchleyite says it is a friendly policy as well. Sometimes people only have large banknotes on them and refusing them travel isn't really good customer service.

Contactless does make things easier for people with cards but i think a lot of a smaller bus operators won't want to spend all the money upgrading.

Where i work we are still using the Wayfarer 3 ticket machines which have no contactless capability and we have no plans to upgrade. I think a lot of smaller bus operators won't want to spend all the money buying newer machines to accept contactless payments. For many bus companies there are a lot more important things to spend money on.

I'm afraid if smaller companies want to continue to compete in the long term, then they really need to start thinking about electronic payments including contactless bank / credit cards. Its rapidly becoming a standard method of payment for small transactions for a lot of people. And certainly here in West Yorkshire all operators must be able to handle at least ITSOs, as many Metro season tickets are only available on these. It should only be a small step from there to being able to handle contactless cards too.

Times change.
People use cash less, so are much less likely to have changing floating about.
Bus fares have risen, meaning even single journeys are now much closer to the value of a note than a few coins.
And I'd also question the idea of "people coped in the past". That phrase is often used by people to complain about anything and everything in the modern world. And the usual answer is that actually people didn't cope. For more serious things (e.g. mental health etc) people actually suffered greatly. And for less serious things like bus fares, people have to deal with inconvenience and getting ripped off (especially where exact fare systems were in place).

And this brings us neatly back full circle, where contactless is available those who rarely use cash can use that, and where operators don't they might want to start thinking about it because otherwise they may start to lose business.
 

MedwayValiant

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I'm afraid if smaller companies want to continue to compete in the long term, then they really need to start thinking about electronic payments including contactless bank / credit cards.

If it were only smaller companies that haven't yet embraced such technologies, that would be one thing. But when a company as large as Arriva doesn't offer any kind of stored value card and doesn't take contactless, can we really expect small companies all to do it?
 

Bletchleyite

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If it were only smaller companies that haven't yet embraced such technologies, that would be one thing. But when a company as large as Arriva doesn't offer any kind of stored value card and doesn't take contactless, can we really expect small companies all to do it?

Arriva are a lazy and conservative company (though to be fair they were first with national M-ticketing). Both First (hardly much better) and Stagecoach (vastly better) are rolling it out nationally.
 

Robertj21a

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If it were only smaller companies that haven't yet embraced such technologies, that would be one thing. But when a company as large as Arriva doesn't offer any kind of stored value card and doesn't take contactless, can we really expect small companies all to do it?


Arriva is in the process of accepting contactless cards, across the country, over the next few months.
 

Tetchytyke

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But when a company as large as Arriva doesn't offer any kind of stored value card and doesn't take contactless

Arriva take contactless in some areas- they do across the whole of the north east- and it should be rolled out nationwide very soon.

As for smaller companies, you can get a card reader that hooks up to a phone for about £30. Might not talk to the ticket machine bit nothing to stop the driver using something like iSettle then issuing a ticket.
 

talltim

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I don't. I don't use cash a lot and it's rare I end up with a sackful of shrapnel. I use my debit card for most things these days and I'm sure I'm not alone.

.

And people like yourself won't often find yourselves waiving a £20 note at an annoyed driver with a £15 float! ;)
As mentioned by others, its those that doen't use cash much who are most likely to have large notes. If I have to catch a cash only bus I usually have to get some money out specifically. I usually do this as cashback in Tesco and ask for some change, but that isn't always possible.
The other thing is that bus fares are often a fair proportion of £10 nowadays. There's a big difference between offering a £10 note for a fare under £1 and offering a £10 for a fare that is over £4
 

Typhoon

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The other thing is that bus fares are often a fair proportion of £10 nowadays. There's a big difference between offering a £10 note for a fare under £1 and offering a £10 for a fare that is over £4
Fares north of £7 are pretty easy to find for returns and day tickets.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't see why there is an issue with changing £20s (I understand £50s due to the fake issue). To change £10 rather than £5, you simply need a £5 note in your float in addition, which no doubt someone has already paid with at some point. To change £20, you just need a £10 and a £5 note in addition. Nobody is expecting (or wanting) it in 50p coins. If they aren't a nice fit in the coin tray, you can put one in one jacket inside pocket and the other in the other.
 

AY1975

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Not all exact fare operations use fare boxes which is part of what you describe. Fare boxes are usually used to improve security/reduce fraud.

Do you know of any exact-fare operators that don't use fare boxes? If so, how does it work? Do they just say to passengers that they're not allowed to give change and you must have the exact fare, otherwise you won't be able to travel (or that we will take your overpayment but not give change)?
 

AY1975

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I don't think any bus operator in Mainland Europe (except Reykjavik in Iceland) has an exact fare policy either?

Such systems were also quite common on buses and trams in Italy - not sure if they still are, as it's 20 years since I was last in Italy.

But I think the Italian systems consisted of a slot into which you inserted your fare, and a machine that printed your ticket - I don't think the driver had to do anything.
 

goldisgood

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Both Stagecoach and First have rolled contactless out across the UK, with Go Ahead having contactless across lots of their operation and Arriva looking to implement it.
Personally I don't bother carrying cash any more. All the main local operators take contactless, so I fail to see the point in it. Sometimes I don't even carry my card around what with Apple Pay. It should be easier for more companies to move to exact fare policy as contactless is implemented, all it will take is people to adapt.
 
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Arriva have had contactless available on Arriva Surrey & West Sussex (Guildford depot) for over a year. This was the first area to get Ticketer machines and start accepting contactless. They have just recently added Arriva Kent & East Sussex as well and i believe that they have plans to roll it out to their entire UK network within the next few months. I believe that First and Go Ahead and Stagecoach now accept contactless across their entire UK networks.
 

MedwayValiant

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Arriva's website gives the following dates for each division:

Beds and Bucks - 10 Mar (already in place on Luton Busway only)
Herts and Essex - 17 Feb
Kent and Surrey - 27 Jan (already in place at Guildford and Tunbridge Wells depots, Gillingham and Sheerness from this Sunday, Maidstone and Northfleet a week later)
Midlands - 31 Mar
North East - already in place
North West - 9 Jun
Wales - 16 Jun
Yorkshire - 21 Apr

Why Arriva is so far behind First and Stagecoach on this I don't know, and I didn't know it was coming to me so soon until I looked at the website. There's been no local or on-bus publicity, and I did hear a passenger ask a driver about it last week and he said he hadn't heard anything about it.
 

Mutant Lemming

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A lot of exact fare operators don't really help themselves with their fare structures - for instance, Newport's most current common fare is £1.80, a fare that requires an average minimum of four coins.
 

Dai Corner

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A lot of exact fare operators don't really help themselves with their fare structures - for instance, Newport's most current common fare is £1.80, a fare that requires an average minimum of four coins.

Their day ticket is £3.70 and they don't do returns so most people probably buy two singles too.
 

Bletchleyite

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A lot of exact fare operators don't really help themselves with their fare structures - for instance, Newport's most current common fare is £1.80, a fare that requires an average minimum of four coins.

The difficulty there is that if you go for a single or even two coin fare you have to put it up by big jumps - £x.50 to £(x+1).00 being the big one.

Best way is to get the cash off the bus entirely.
 

Chris217

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Cardiff and Newport have had exact fare/fare boxes since the late 70s.
Newport didn't issue tickets for a long time too. Except for returns to Cardiff etc.

On Stagecoach Merseyside we have cotactless and phone payment methods as well as cash sales.
Contactless does speed up loading.
But our flat fares at £1.20 child and £2.20 adult and £4.20 dayrider means we drivers have to be 'bank of England drivers' when it comes to carrying silver.
As for running out of change,we have to let them on,especially if they look vunerable.
Although plenty of less than honest people do try it on.
I remember being on the first bus from Kirkby to be greeted with a £20 note first passenger!
When I told him I had no notes but could give him his change in coins,he soon found the right money!
 
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What i have found strange is that Newport Bus are exact fare even on their longer distance rural routes (which are operated using farestages rather than flat fares outside the Newport area) and they don't sell Return tickets on these routes either.
 

AY1975

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I had no idea that Stagecoach ever used an exact fare policy. I presume that Aberdeen must have been the only place where they did this.

What about Stagecoach Glasgow? I know First Glasgow uses exact-fare boxes, and I thought Stagecoach Glasgow did too - a policy inherited from Strathclyde Buses (part of Strathclyde Transport before deregulation).
 

Journeyman

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It's interesting that I've found this policy to be much more common in Scotland, where I now live, than it was in England, where I grew up. It seems to originate from the very early days of driver-only operation - in many cases, it was done as a sweetener to the unions, as it was seen as making the drivers' job easier, and it eased resistance to getting rid of conductors.

Personally, I'd like to see operators go down the TfL route and make buses cashless, which works very well. Oyster is available for those without bank accounts, but in many cases those people will be vulnerable/elderly/disabled etc and qualify for free travel anyway.
 

PeterC

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SNIP
And lets face it, how many car parks are there where you have to buy a ticket on arrival, and the machines only use cash? Same problem, different circumstances.
/SNIP
I keep a dedicated supply of change in the car where it doesn't wear a hole in my trouser pocket.
(I will save my rant about needing a different parking app every time you cross a local authority boundary for another time)
 

Statto

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I think there are a few reasons.

Firstly, if you don't use cash a lot, you're not going to have a lot of coins.

Secondly, if you don't have a lot of cash on you then you need to get money from an ATM. Finding an ATM that issues fivers is not easy. If the smallest note usually available is a tenner it causes issues.

Thirdly, bus companies don't advertise their fares so it's hard to know how much cash to have. Exact fare operators tend to have simple fare structures- NXWM charge a flat fare for journeys over one mile, Lothian only have one flat fare- which makes it easier to have the right money.

NXWM advertise there single fares on there website, but try getting the same single fares info from First & Arriva, all they advertise are day/weekly tickets ecc, so annoying First Glasgow have exact fare only policy but don't advertise single fares.
 

Ianigsy

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I've lived in Edinburgh all my life and Lothian's exact fare policy has never bothered me, in fact I believe it is a good thing for the sake of the driver, they have no access to the cash so ain't likey to be faced by some jakey or junkie trying to rob them of their cash.

I anticipated this the last time I visited Edinburgh, so my first stop on leaving Waverley station was the Waverley Bridge travelshop, where I bought a day ticket for each day that I was planning to spend in the city (except the last, when I just needed a single from my hotel to the station)!
 

AY1975

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I moved to Birmingham around 1973. I don't think I ever saw that (but I have heard about it).

The arrangement I remember is https://theironroom.wordpress.com/tag/transport/
I don't remember drivers having conversations with customers though!

Yes, and the West Midlands has stuck with its exact-fare policy ever since - under West Midlands Travel, Travel West Midlands, and now NatEx West Midlands.

I believe that in the early days of fareboxes in the West Midlands, passengers would often get on, offer their fare to the driver and say where they wanted to go (e.g. "Selly Oak, please"), and the driver would point to the fare hopper and say "In there, mate," and the passenger would think this meant they had to speak into the farebox so they would lean over the hopper and say "Selly Oak, please" (or wherever they wanted to go).

I am told that people would also sometimes try to insert their fare into the used ticket box instead of into the farebox.
 

AY1975

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Perhaps they should issue change vouchers as some other operators do nowadays.

I think Lothian Buses used to do this - you had to cash them at their transport offices, which must have been a bit of a pain. Not sure if they still do this.

Surely it would be simpler for change vouchers to be accepted as part payment on the bus next time you travel.
 

AY1975

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WMPTE was indeed pretty much universally on Autofare at a very early date.
The system being described was Videmat, to be found in Cardiff, Leicester, Manchester (SELNEC/GMPTE) Reading, Sheffield (SYPTE) and Southampton amongst other places.

I had no idea that Sheffield buses were ever exact-fare. I seem to recall that Centreline buses, which ran between Manchester Piccadilly and Victoria stations, were exact-fare (and had a flat fare of something like 12p!) but I don't know if they used fareboxes.

I seem to recall that Derby city buses were exact-fare in the 1970s when they were municipally owned. Red Arrow buses in London also used to use fareboxes.
 
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