People's attitude to buying tickets.

Haywain said:

And my point stands that such an action *is* intentionally dishonest, no matter how much you try to excuse it.

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Semantics, explain is not the same as excuse. Some don't see that.

My local London suburban station only has one TVM and the ticket office is closed most of the day.

One day when I had to get to Hatfield, the TVM was out of service and the ticket office was indeed closed. So, I boarded the train, explained the situation at Hatfield and managed to buy the ticket in time for my meeting.

There was very little in what else I could've done. Hatfield doesn't accept Oyster or contactless and I had an important meeting, so I couldn't have touched in with my contactless card, got off at, say, New Barnet and bought a ticket there as I wouldn't have made it otherwise.

Killingworth said:

Semantics, explain is not the same as excuse. Some don't see that.

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OK then. My point stands that such an action *is* intentionally dishonest, no matter how much you try to explain it.

The comparison to buying a Mars Bar isn’t helpful or accurate. Stealing a Mars Bar is a bit different to not paying for the train.

It’s essentially the tragedy of the commons. People see that the train is going to run anyway. What difference does it make if I don’t pay. The marginal cost of one extra person on a train is virtually zero so it’s fairly easy to justify fare evasion. The marginal cost of a stolen chocolate bar isn’t. There’s scarcity there that doesn’t exist in the same way on the train.

JP said:

The comparison to buying a Mars Bar isn’t helpful or accurate. Stealing a Mars Bar is a bit different to not paying for the train.

It’s essentially the tragedy of the commons. People see that the train is going to run anyway. What difference does it make if I don’t pay. The marginal cost of one extra person on a train is virtually zero so it’s fairly easy to justify fare evasion. The marginal cost of a stolen chocolate bar isn’t. There’s scarcity there that doesn’t exist in the same way on the train.

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"What difference does it make if I don't pay?". Well for one person, probably not a lot. But then if one person can think that, so can another, and another. Before long the one person becomes two, then four, then ten, a hundred, a thousand. So at what point does it go from OK to not so? Is there a tipping point that defines the boundary between acceptable an and unacceptable? The answer is there simply isn't, deliberately evading fares is not acceptable. That's where the tipping point exists, at just one person doing it.

Bantamzen said:

"What difference does it make if I don't pay?". Well for one person, probably not a lot. But then if one person can think that, so can another, and another. Before long the one person becomes two, then four, then ten, a hundred, a thousand. So at what point does it go from OK to not so? Is there a tipping point that defines the boundary between acceptable an and unacceptable? The answer is there simply isn't, deliberately evading fares is not acceptable. That's where the tipping point exists, at just one person doing it.

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Indeed. Hence why I mentioned tragedy of the commons

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

JP said:

The comparison to buying a Mars Bar isn’t helpful or accurate. Stealing a Mars Bar is a bit different to not paying for the train.

It’s essentially the tragedy of the commons. People see that the train is going to run anyway. What difference does it make if I don’t pay. The marginal cost of one extra person on a train is virtually zero so it’s fairly easy to justify fare evasion. The marginal cost of a stolen chocolate bar isn’t. There’s scarcity there that doesn’t exist in the same way on the train.

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Not sure I agree. In both cases you are taking/using something without paying.

Looking at the railway case, and in terms of dishonesty, surely it depends on why they haven't paid before boarding. There are some people who 'chance' it (dishonest) and those who genuinely believe you can buy on board (wrong, but not intentionally dishonest).

It would be nice to hear from someone who works on a TOC that covers a penalty fare zone - i.e. from a guard as to why they sell tickets rather than impose a FP, or from the TOC themselves as to why they allow this to happen. they must know from sales data that tickets are being sold, and PF's are not being imposed.

Looking back up the thread, there is a lot of talk about ticket machines not working. Are these breakdowns or vandalism?

BanburyBlue said:

It would be nice to hear from someone who works on a TOC that covers a penalty fare zone - i.e. from a guard as to why they sell tickets rather than impose a FP,

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Very few, if any, TOCs have ordinary guards/OBSs etc. trained as Authorised Collectors. And only an Authorised Collector may issue a Penalty Fare. Therefore it is not within the remit of most guards to charge a Penalty Fare, even if they wanted. At best, they can (if they are trained to do so) take the passenger's details for prosecution.

Faced with that choice - commission (for most TOCs) for selling a ticket, and a happy customer, or the alternative of aggrieving the customer by taking their details for prosecution, and thereby earning nothing - it's easy to see why many tickets are still sold onboard, in circumstances where the passenger should have bought their ticket prior to travel.

BanburyBlue said:

It would be nice to hear from someone who works on a TOC that covers a penalty fare zone - i.e. from a guard as to why they sell tickets rather than impose a FP, or from the TOC themselves as to why they allow this to happen. they must know from sales data that tickets are being sold, and PF's are not being imposed.

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I reckon this has been explained numerous times since you joined the forums, but as the previous poster explained, normal guards are not trained to the same standards as the revenue protection staff. However I would add that under earlier guidelines, fares sold in Penalty Fare areas were supposed to have a PF warning notice issued with them.

JP said:

Stealing a Mars Bar is a bit different to not paying for the train.

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How so? In both cases you have obtained a product or srvice without having paid the appropriate charge. Theft is theft. It makes no difference whether it's a Mars Bar, a train ride, a bottle of whiskey, a tv or someones car from their driveway, it's still theft.

Mutant Lemming said:

*RANT ALERT"
It's all very well blaming passengers but the train operators need to get their act together and provide the opportunities for people to buy tickets and the up to date information regarding their policies - which seems a long way off seeing that they don't even instruct their own staff properly.

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Every Penalty Fares station is equipped with a warning poster, reminding people to buy before they board. Every Penalty Fares station must have ticket purchasing facilities or a Permit To Travel machine, which is why Northern have installed TVMs and Promise To Pay machines at a number of stations. Train Operating Companies also mention their Revenue Enforcement Policy on their websites, with references to byelaws and the RORA 1889.

It's quite shocking the number of people that board at stations with numerous ticket office windows, pre-booked collection machines and TVMs without using these facilities. Not surprisingly, these people are usually making a one stop journey and (in my opinion), probably hoping they won't be challenged to buy a ticket. This is where Penalty Fares and RPOs come in to play, and rightly so.

I believe the 'Buy On Board' advertisements were back in the 1990s, which privatisation has rightly put a stop to, the same with Intercity 's 'Open Stations ' idea.

NoOnesFool said:

Every Penalty Fares station is equipped with a warning poster, reminding people to buy before they board.

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In theory, yes. But even though most stations are compliant in having a poster, the positioning and size of these posters often results in them being unremarkable and easy to miss.

NoOnesFool said:

Every Penalty Fares station must have ticket purchasing facilities or a Permit To Travel machine, which is why Northern have installed TVMs and Promise To Pay machines at a number of stations.

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Yes, they must have some form of facilities. But often these facilities are limited in terms of the tickets they sell and the (valid) payment methods they accept. Until the situation of "I want to use this RTV I've been sent, do I get a Promise to Pay and break the terms requiring me to pay in cash, or do I not get one at all", and similar, no longer exists, the facilities aren't really fully adequate. It's not really on for new-build TVMs not to accept cash at the very least, IMO - surely there must be a way of suitably securing it if theft of the cash is as massive a problem as the TOCs often make out?!

NoOnesFool said:

Train Operating Companies also mention their Revenue Enforcement Policy on their websites, with references to byelaws and the RORA 1889.

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As if anyone goes on a TOC's website before taking the train, to check what their Revenue Enforcement Policy is, and makes their ticketing decisions on that basis

NoOnesFool said:

It's quite shocking the number of people that board at stations with numerous ticket office windows

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So, that would be perhaps a couple of the major stations? The proportion of stations which both have multiple manned ticket windows and no barriers must be very small.

NoOnesFool said:

pre-booked collection machines

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Ah, so someone is supposed to use an app or a website to buy a ticket for a journey of a few stops, wait a few hours if it's Trainline based, and then pick up their tickets? I don't think so!

NoOnesFool said:

and TVMs

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Which have several problems, as alluded to above.

NoOnesFool said:

without using these facilities

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Of course, sometimes it's outright evasion, and sometimes it's "buy when challenged", but in a number of cases it's entirely legitimate.

NoOnesFool said:

Not surprisingly, these people are usually making a one stop journey and (in my opinion), probably hoping they won't be challenged to buy a ticket. This is where Penalty Fares and RPOs come in to play, and rightly so.

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I entirely agree that those with dishonest intentions should not get away with it. But at the moment the train companies are, to say the least, making it very easy to sympathise with some of the beleaguered passengers' positions.

NoOnesFool said:

I believe the 'Buy On Board' advertisements were back in the 1990s, which privatisation has rightly put a stop to, the same with Intercity 's 'Open Stations ' idea.

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True, but there hasn't been one single national campaign advocating "buy before you board". If the TOCs really want that to be known, why don't they do that? Oh that's right, it'd be expensive and bad publicity!

Fare evasion, whether hard-line or casual, is not good for the railways. But, ultimately, we are not in the ages of a totally private railway any more. If fare evasion increases on a specific line, the direct impact is simply lower profit margins (or higher losses) for the TOC. That may of course impact the financials of the next refranchising or direct award, but in the short term it has quite a limited impact on the actual provision of services. Meanwhile, too many stations and too many passengers still don't have proper facilities to buy the ticket they want using the payment method which they want, and yet they are in some cases (attempted to be) penalised for this. That is something that can't be let to continue.

ForTheLoveOf said:

It's not really on for new-build TVMs not to accept cash at the very least, IMO - surely there must be a way of suitably securing it if theft of the cash is as massive a problem as the TOCs often make out?!

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I'm afraid some criminals aren't too bright. They see a machine that takes cash in an isolated spot and will wreck the machine to get £1.75 but in the hope they'll get a lot more.

In the Peak District the two cash taking parking ticket machines at Edale were sawn off and removed a few years ago. A row of machines out of Castleton heading up the old Mam Tor road were all vandalised to get any cash. All new machines will only take cards and have a number to ring if no card.

The cost of the damage is great. I'm not at all surprised TOCs don't want to run that risk with expensive TVMs at often remote stations.

Anyway, within a year or two more of us will be able to buy flexi-season or carnet type tickets, and maybe an account to pay monthly according to the journeys taken. I sense that will take nearer 10 years in the more remote parts of the rail network. As always London is likely to lead the way on most of that.

All 4 independent travellers at my table yesterday had their tickets on their phones so the days of the TVM may be short.

Interesting question being posed on another site, which is related to this discussion I think:

“We've probably all been there, but what do you do?”
“When catching a train there was no time for me to buy a ticket. The lady at the station said not to worry, I could buy one at my destination. However, when I arrived, the ticket office was closed, so I left without paying.”
https://twitter.com/moneysavingexp/status/1087077396199731201?s=21

Cash is dying rapidly.

I noticed last summer while attending a number of “food fairs” and the like that not only do many pop-up stalls accept card, many only accept card - I assume one reason for this may be the inherent security issues with sole workers lugging cash around.

When travelling on buses near to me, I don’t see more than a couple of cash payments per journey. Most are some form of pass, many are contactless cards, and so on. Appreciate this wouldn’t be as easy on the railways due to various tickets being available and not having to “buy/present” when embarking.

NoOnesFool said:

Every Penalty Fares station must have ticket purchasing facilities or a Permit To Travel machine,

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A number of 'Penalty Fares stations' (according to Northern) have no such facilities. If these stations "must" have the facilities what penalty is being levied against Northern for failing to provide them ?

NoOnesFool said:

Train Operating Companies also mention their Revenue Enforcement Policy on their websites, with references to byelaws and the RORA 1889.

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Some do, some don't.

sheff1 said:

A number of 'Penalty Fares stations' (according to Northern) have no such facilities. If these stations "must" have the facilities what penalty is being levied against Northern for failing to provide them ?

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A 'Penalty Fare station' is no longer defined - so you can define the term to suit you. If a station has the requisite posters, PFs can still only be charged from there when ticket facilities are provided (which could be rarely, by roving teams of operatives).

***********

NSB2017 said:

Cash is dying rapidly.

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Cash will never die. It's a London thing that cash is dying. Outside of London loads of people still use cash for transactions. A lot of old people still stash it around their house. TOCs are in a rock and a hard place with TVMs as they would have to many to monitor if they held cash.

js1000 said:

Cash will never die. It's a London thing that cash is dying. Outside of London loads of people still use cash for transactions. A lot of old people still stash it around their house. TOCs are in a rock and a hard place with TVMs as they would have to many to monitor if they held cash.

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Cash use is falling even outside London, but there are plenty of scenarios where cash remains necessary and useful. I write as someone who uses various means of payment, but also uses card readers on events where I am on the selling side.

If you go to Scandanavia, cash is already pretty much dead. Most restaurants and bars don't accept it, certainly transport doesn't want it. In my last two trips to Norway and Sweden I didn't even get any local hard currency out.

I'm seeing a similar pattern in London, and although the rest of the country is still reliant on cash somewhat, that will trickle down.

londonbridge said:

Theft is theft.

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You can't steal a service.

kristiang85 said:

If you go to Scandanavia, cash is already pretty much dead. Most restaurants and bars don't accept it, certainly transport doesn't want it. In my last two trips to Norway and Sweden I didn't even get any local hard currency out.

I'm seeing a similar pattern in London, and although the rest of the country is still reliant on cash somewhat, that will trickle down.

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Sweden yes. Norway, Denmark, not so much.

Cash is dying in Sweden because the central bank decided to charge commercial banks high fees for obtaining cash from them and sending it back. This resulted in commercial banks reducing their cash operations, which made it difficult for retailers to handle cash, and thus led to consumers being unable to use cash everywhere, in conjunction with the development of the Swish phone app making electronic small payments convenient.

The central banks of Norway and Denmark are still cash-friendly and as a result commercial banks remain cash-friendly, thus it is still in use. I'm not an expert but my understanding is that cash must be accepted for transactions in Norway, while in Sweden it is up to the contracting parties to agree on payment methods. Last year I rode Lokaltog services around Copenhagen and noticed the ticket machines only accepted cash. In 2015 I took a local train from Stavanger and got off at a rural halt with no ticket machine, on the train back it was only possible to pay the conductor in cash. My friend apparently showed the relevant paragraph of the law to a "cash-free" bar in Norway, which convinced them to accept his cash payment.

I think people who feel that cash is disappearing tend to live in a way that reinforces this view. I live in London and in some of the places I go to I am very much in a minority when I get out a card to pay. Conversely in Norway and Denmark I have never not been able to pay in cash if I wanted to. While most people pay by card, I have not been made to feel like I am inconveniencing anyone by paying in cash (whereas in London it occasionally feels that way when paying by card!) Even in Sweden, at shops which do take cash, I see it used a lot more than the media would have me believe.



Getting back on topic, the way I see ticket buying is: if a shop is selling a Mars Bar for £5, would you steal it because you think it's too expensive? If not then why would you steal a train ticket just because you find it too expensive?

Now if the till was at the back of the shop, you knew the shopkeeper was a bit absent-minded, there are shelves outside the shop, you've nicked something in the past and also sometimes paid, and he's never realised - that seems to be the same as walking past a working ticket machine that sells what you need and accepts your preferred payment method, while knowing the guard starts from the back of the train and if you sit in the front carriage it's impossible for him to get round to you by your stop.

Not sure if this has something to do with it, but when you look at a bus timetable you don't need to mentally allocate time for buying ticket and thus arriving early, so perhaps some people see a train schedule and think they will be fine to arrive 2 minutes before, neglecting to think about the risk of queues, slow TVMs, etc.

paddington said:

Getting back on topic, the way I see ticket buying is: if a shop is selling a Mars Bar for £5, would you steal it because you think it's too expensive? If not then why would you steal a train ticket just because you find it too expensive?

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I am afraid that, as always, comparisons with Mars Bars do not work. If you do not pay for a rail journey because you feel it is too expensive you are not stealing a train ticket and, as the previous post stated, you cannot steal a service.

You could steal a train ticket if someone had left one on the table and you took it as you went past, but that is not the sort of thing this thread is about.

sheff1 said:

I am afraid that, as always, comparisons with Mars Bars do not work. If you do not pay for a rail journey because you feel it is too expensive you are not stealing a train ticket and, as the previous post stated, you cannot steal a service.

You could steal a train ticket if someone had left one on the table and you took it as you went past, but that is not the sort of thing this thread is about.

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Personally I think this is all semantics. You are using a service that you haven't paid for. Still dishonest.

londonbridge said:

How so? In both cases you have obtained a product or srvice without having paid the appropriate charge. Theft is theft. It makes no difference whether it's a Mars Bar, a train ride, a bottle of whiskey, a tv or someones car from their driveway, it's still theft.

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Stealing a Mars Bar, or any object, is a real physical loss for the shop/person you stole it from, that object has to be replaced at financial cost. Boarding a train without a ticket does not result in a physical loss for the rail operator, nothing has to be replaced when someone fare dodges (although there are indirect losses). Doesn't make it any less wrong.

kristiang85 said:

If you go to Scandanavia, cash is already pretty much dead. Most restaurants and bars don't accept it, certainly transport doesn't want it. In my last two trips to Norway and Sweden I didn't even get any local hard currency out.

I'm seeing a similar pattern in London, and although the rest of the country is still reliant on cash somewhat, that will trickle down.

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In Germany last year no one wanted to take our Debit/Credit card
Cash only
Not even the airport bus,s local office in Damrstadt

Jumble

al78 said:

Stealing a Mars Bar, or any object, is a real physical loss for the shop/person you stole it from, that object has to be replaced at financial cost. Boarding a train without a ticket does not result in a physical loss for the rail operator, nothing has to be replaced when someone fare dodges (although there are indirect losses). Doesn't make it any less wrong.

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Well cost-wise it may be minimal loss to the TOC, but that simply isn't the point. If one person thinks they can do it because there is minimal impact, why not more people? And if enough people do it the TOC starts to lose serious amounts of revenue, and the service will eventually get pulled at a loss to all, including those remaining honest and paying their way. There is no excusing those who deliberately seek to evade fares, none whatsoever.

BanburyBlue said:

Personally I think this is all semantics. You are using a service that you haven't paid for. Still dishonest.

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Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. The same principle applies to bankruptcy and nobody thinks that's dishonest.

Mutant Lemming said:

*RANT ALERT"
It's all very well blaming passengers but the train operators need to get their act together and provide the opportunities for people to buy tickets and the up to date information regarding their policies - which seems a long way off seeing that they don't even instruct their own staff properly.
Increasingly on the Thameslink route people are being denied access to trains when they are unable to purchase their ticket from machines (for whatever reason) and either there is no one around to open the barriers or the staff refuse to let people (as probably instructed) to board without buying a ticket. It often takes an unnecessary argument and a printed copy of the rules (which I now have to carry around with me) to convince them and avoid their advice of 'you will have to wait till the ticket office re-opens in 40 mins or so' . It may help if they trained all their station staff to sell tickets rather than just be minders for the ticket gates.

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I agree with this, far too much onus is put on passengers. Many occasional train users are not comfortable using TVM's and at some stations they don't take cash anyway, obviously to save the costs of emptying them. Where this is no ticket office open passengers should be able to pay on the train or at their destination without question and I realise some people will take advantage but you don't tar everyone with the same brush.