Northern writing to ACAS requesting independent inquiry

Bantamzen said:

And this is the heart of the matter. Arriva would almost certainly want to find a resolution. They are a business, they want to make money but they can only do so if their trains run. After 45 days of disruption in a normal business sense they would well on their way to a resolution. But as you rightly note, the hand of DfT is at play here..

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Which is actually to the unions advantage given a fully privatised company would have likley dispersed with staff not willing to accept change many months ago

Just to clarify on points raised...

OxtedSignaller said:

Southern OBS are safety trained but not safety critical. They are trained in assisting with train evacuations, basic PTS such as what signage means and how to walk on the line (not route knowledge however), making emergency GSMR calls, stopping the train in an emergency by giving one on the bell, locking out doors, resetting pass oms and resolving basic interior faults like sliding doors, toilets etc etc. To name a few competencies.

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No PTS for quite a few of them yet. Generally only new ones and "contingency" OBSs (ie. management) have it.

No training is given formally on anything dispatch-related or watching the train out, therefore nothing about giving one on the bell.

Ex-conductor OBSs will obviously still have an idea what to do. Sadly none of their competencies were maintained (eg. PTS etc.) despite the fact that any ASLEF deal was likely to result in them needing to get them back.

387star said:

Wonder what their evac training involves... and how do you make a gsmr emergency call without route knowledge?

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OBS evacuation training is a few sides of A5 in a book. Basically.

And I completely agree about GSM-R usage. The nominal idea taught to OBSs is basically that they press the red button and tell the signaller their headcode and which stations they're between, and it will help. But often that simply isn't quite enough.

Even Southern conductors only ever had (and indeed have) minimal practical training on evacuation anyway, with very little by way of simulations and real-world exercises. What is not widely realised is that Southern conductor knowledge was considerably dumbed-down many years before the OBS grade was formally put to paper. Other things like route knowledge were also pared right down way before the dispute, as well as completely removing skills like splitting & attaching trains. As someone recently put it, "a Southern conductor is more and more just an OBS who can dispatch a train", and this is not a new sentiment.

The reduction of this knowledge began in earnest once the last of the old slamdoors had disappeared and the first step of "modernisation" had therefore been completed, which also started to coincide with the beginning of various restructuring agreements for staff and continuous shakeups of management roles. So much of the groundwork dates across at least 15 years, maybe longer.

pompeyfan said:

Is that a fact? I know that’s what Southern promised but didn’t think they’d delivered on it yet. If they have the above training do they not now need a full guards medical? I was under the impression that anyone and their dog could become an OBS providing they answered with the right answers in an interview. Do they still do an assessment day with the OPC like traditional guards?

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There are some assessments as well as the interview. If anything, assessments have become an awful lot more rigorous for candidates for any frontline roles, whether OBSs or anything else.

Arctic Troll said:

We'll see after the next franchise round.

I wouldn't bet much on them still existing by 2025.

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I think there will be major changes, but I simply don't think running passenger services in this area of the world will work without some form of roving staff, and the best of the current staff probably have little to fear. The concept, going forward, is probably a tad similar to the upcoming Merseyrail situation, with trains patrolled by a reasonably-sized team of staff who don't need to be "keyed on" and allocated to a specific train to make a difference.

One thing is for sure, which is that staff numbers are never increased too far.

Carlisle said:

Which is actually to the unions advantage given a fully privatised company would have likley dispersed with staff not willing to accept change many months ago

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Realistically, the passenger railway would never be a fully privatised company (in the sense of Sainsburys or Allied Carpets, where customers can just choose an alternative supplier), so Northern and the RMT would likely converge on the line of least resistance, such as driver open/guard close.

Staff would be satisfied, passengers would be happy because the trains were running, revenue would be increasing, subsidies decreasing and we wouldn't have the current never-ending fiasco.

Sadly the DfT thought it knew better.

I, rightly or wrongly, look at strike action through the lens of "can I justify it to my mates in the pub?".

To start with, I'd have said yes, 100% yes. Now, with Arriva/DfT calling for ACAS to be involved, the answer is no. It would have wide-ranging impacts if they sided with Arriva, but to me it sounds like the RMT know they'd lose (whether it be because of a 'conspiracy', or otherwise) and don't want to risk it.

After what's almost a year, I doubt Arriva are particularly arsed, probably more focussed on actually keeping the franchise than losing a few Saturday services. The Arriva social media team are, from their point of view, outstanding at blaming the RMT for it. Rightly or wrongly, I think it's gotten to the point where the general public blame the guards, which is the worst case situation for a Union.

I've no faith in the RMT leadership, it just feels so old-fashioned, and the 'Brother/Sister' business is cringeworthy.

I fully support safety critical guards, but I think the RMT should have hit Arriva with a week long strike a few times by now - as has been alluded to, it's probably too late. The Saturday's are having much less of an impact, if indeed any - especially for those in larger areas like Stockport and Wilmslow.

My own prediction is in 12 months time, nothing will have changed.

If nothing has changed in twelve months time, I predict we we will be well on our way back to the Beeching era in the North, with the railways becoming such an irrelevance that few people will notice whether they're closed or not.

A commuter only railway, like the ones in the North East USA, clinging on for survival.

tsr said:

Just to clarify on points raised...



No PTS for quite a few of them yet. Generally only new ones and "contingency" OBSs (ie. management) have it.

No training is given formally on anything dispatch-related or watching the train out, therefore nothing about giving one on the bell.

Ex-conductor OBSs will obviously still have an idea what to do. Sadly none of their competencies were maintained (eg. PTS etc.) despite the fact that any ASLEF deal was likely to result in them needing to get them back.



OBS evacuation training is a few sides of A5 in a book. Basically.

And I completely agree about GSM-R usage. The nominal idea taught to OBSs is basically that they press the red button and tell the signaller their headcode and which stations they're between, and it will help. But often that simply isn't quite enough.

Even Southern conductors only ever had (and indeed have) minimal practical training on evacuation anyway, with very little by way of simulations and real-world exercises. What is not widely realised is that Southern conductor knowledge was considerably dumbed-down many years before the OBS grade was formally put to paper. Other things like route knowledge were also pared right down way before the dispute, as well as completely removing skills like splitting & attaching trains. As someone recently put it, "a Southern conductor is more and more just an OBS who can dispatch a train", and this is not a new sentiment.

The reduction of this knowledge began in earnest once the last of the old slamdoors had disappeared and the first step of "modernisation" had therefore been completed, which also started to coincide with the beginning of various restructuring agreements for staff and continuous shakeups of management roles. So much of the groundwork dates across at least 15 years, maybe longer.



There are some assessments as well as the interview. If anything, assessments have become an awful lot more rigorous for candidates for any frontline roles, whether OBSs or anything else.



I think there will be major changes, but I simply don't think running passenger services in this area of the world will work without some form of roving staff, and the best of the current staff probably have little to fear. The concept, going forward, is probably a tad similar to the upcoming Merseyrail situation, with trains patrolled by a reasonably-sized team of staff who don't need to be "keyed on" and allocated to a specific train to make a difference.

One thing is for sure, which is that staff numbers are never increased too far.

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So to clarify new OBS are getting PTS training?

It's the lack of direct dialogue with the staff that gets me. You would think they might at least try and appeal to the staff rather than through the usual RMT channels. But there is nothing, just stony silence.
Has anyone ever witnessed anything so defeatist. At least Southern who knew all along they had the upper hand offered a bribe of £2,000. This lot have no clue how to reach out. It honestly feels like they are well out of their depth.

tsr said:

Even Southern conductors only ever had (and indeed have) minimal practical training on evacuation anyway, with very little by way of simulations and real-world exercises. What is not widely realised is that Southern conductor knowledge was considerably dumbed-down many years before the OBS grade was formally put to paper. Other things like route knowledge were also pared right down way before the dispute, as well as completely removing skills like splitting & attaching trains. As someone recently put it, "a Southern conductor is more and more just an OBS who can dispatch a train", and this is not a new sentiment.

The reduction of this knowledge began in earnest once the last of the old slamdoors had disappeared and the first step of "modernisation" had therefore been completed, which also started to coincide with the beginning of various restructuring agreements for staff and continuous shakeups of management roles. So much of the groundwork dates across at least 15 years, maybe longer.

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I've never quite understood the lack of a national policy on guards training and competence as existed under BR.

Where I am the guard is quite firmly in charge, usually undertakes all communications and is party to decision making with the control (the driver manages safety critical comms with the signaller except in an emergency when they're not available - though we do have cause to talk to them every now and then). Apart from immediate safety of the line issues in an emergency the driver will generally defer to the guard. It's not particularly unusual to end up on the track (which is probably part and parcel of working in rural areas where collisions with trees aren't unusual and vehicles not particularly unknown) and we get stuck in with assisting fault finding and repairs, and maintain competence on things like hotboxes and rotation tests as well and uncoupling vehicles in an emergency for stock where this is practical. On the more modern units the train management system is set up to allow the guard to control most of the on-board features as well as things like viewing the on-board and forward facing CCTV.

We generally don't have other people around to help and response times in incidents are long so I suppose it's worth it to avoid people bailing out or prevent the train from being stranded.

The concept of just opening and closing the doors, doing announcements and checking tickets is fairly alien to me.

I suspect it's also why I struggle with the concept of DOO working - it's a million miles away from what we do here.

njamescouk said:

how can it be independent, northern have just set the terms of reference!

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Read further, while Northern are setting out what they want to be investigated, what the actual scope is requires the agreement of both parties.

Let's indeed have honesty. There are finite amounts of tax revenue available before we as taxpayers object to paying more. Try putting up taxes on any form of road transport and we'd see protests, mass marches and maybe blockades. As rail enthusiasts more of us would probably be happy to see increased fuel taxes than the general population.

The subsidies being made to rail in the north are enormous and all logic says many lines should be shut. The one's that should remain open are those that carry high volumes of freight.

Getting down to specific lines heavy loads of limestone and cement are paying very high charges to use mine. They get in the way of passenger services, but should they not have priority over a highly subsidised stopping service?

I caught a train at Sheffield today and my car parking cost almost twice as much as the train trip. Normally I'd have walked to my station and caught the local service into town. Thinking on, once I'd got the car out it would have been quicker, easier and cheaper to go all the way by car. Many would do this without even thinking of trains, ever.

Entering the car park I passed the RMT picket line. They all seemed in high spirits. Somehow that enthusiasm for the RMT cause must be re-chanelled into building customer numbers and revenue from warm trains rather than manning the cold picket line. And soon.

It's an unproductive total waste of everyone's time. It's not just the cancelled trains for us as passengers. It's the inevitable diversion of so much managerial and clerical time that must be having unknown impacts across the business. All those little tasks put off as non urgent that must be mounting up.

I recall involvement in a divisive dispute for a mere 3 months. It was hard, and things were said under pressure that might have been better left unsaid. We thought it would never end but learned a lot of lessons on both sides. We ended up battered, bruised and exhausted but once settled worked with a common will to put things back together again. A lot of non-urgent things had been left to concentrate on the immediate but morale was surprisingly high as we cleared back logs.

By now Northern must have accumulated a back log of less urgent matters that will eventually need attention. Those dealing with those matters will be aware of them, both in and outside the company. There's a lot of bridge building needed.

Killingworth said:

The subsidies being made to rail in the north are enormous and all logic says many lines should be shut. The one's that should remain open are those that carry high volumes of freight.

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You've lost credibility here.

The dispute could be solved tomorrow. DfT agrees to DO/GC and we could all get back to normal

Killingworth said:

Let's indeed have honesty. There are finite amounts of tax revenue available before we as taxpayers object to paying more. Try putting up taxes on any form of road transport and we'd see protests, mass marches and maybe blockades. As rail enthusiasts more of us would probably be happy to see increased fuel taxes than the general population.

The subsidies being made to rail in the north are enormous and all logic says many lines should be shut. The one's that should remain open are those that carry high volumes of freight.

Getting down to specific lines heavy loads of limestone and cement are paying very high charges to use mine. They get in the way of passenger services, but should they not have priority over a highly subsidised stopping service?

I caught a train at Sheffield today and my car parking cost almost twice as much as the train trip. Normally I'd have walked to my station and caught the local service into town. Thinking on, once I'd got the car out it would have been quicker, easier and cheaper to go all the way by car. Many would do this without even thinking of trains, ever.

Entering the car park I passed the RMT picket line. They all seemed in high spirits. Somehow that enthusiasm for the RMT cause must be re-chanelled into building customer numbers and revenue from warm trains rather than manning the cold picket line. And soon.

It's an unproductive total waste of everyone's time. It's not just the cancelled trains for us as passengers. It's the inevitable diversion of so much managerial and clerical time that must be having unknown impacts across the business. All those little tasks put off as non urgent that must be mounting up.

I recall involvement in a divisive dispute for a mere 3 months. It was hard, and things were said under pressure that might have been better left unsaid. We thought it would never end but learned a lot of lessons on both sides. We ended up battered, bruised and exhausted but once settled worked with a common will to put things back together again. A lot of non-urgent things had been left to concentrate on the immediate but morale was surprisingly high as we cleared back logs.

By now Northern must have accumulated a back log of less urgent matters that will eventually need attention. Those dealing with those matters will be aware of them, both in and outside the company. There's a lot of bridge building needed.

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And if you follow that argument to the whole country hundreds of miles of lines would have to close.
I suggest that you do not understand why the railway exists!

Bring on a week strike.

Llanigraham said:

And if you follow that argument to the whole country hundreds of miles of lines would have to close.
I suggest that you do not understand why the railway exists!

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The first railways were wagonways carrying coal. Stockton and Darlington carried coal before passengers. Almost every station had a goods yard where household coal merchants were based. The Woodhead line was built to carry coal before passengers, as was the Hope Valley. Wagon loads from private sidings were common place.

I haven't the data to hand but station accounts used to show passenger and freight revenues. Many stations made more from freight than passengers. Obviously big city stations didn't but collieries and steel works made up for that.

Yes, the majority of the network we have left today is passenger dominated, particularly around cities. The flexibility of door to door collections and deliveries, quickly, has done for most non bulk rail freight. The same flexibility of car journeys reduces the attraction of rail. The resultant congestion on our roads now hands the advantage back to rail - which is itself now congested.

Which might bring me to Platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly where resurgent growth in passenger traffic encounters growth in container traffic from Trafford Park.

I might then wander round the Cumbrian coast with it's isolated stations, the line having survived due to the nuclear industry.

A visit to Peterborough would show the conflict between freight and passenger services.

The reasons many lines were originally built may not reflect the balance of traffic they carry now. They were almost all built with the intention of making profit. Quite a few never did directly and closed fairly early unless subsidised within the railway as feeder lines. After two world wars commercially profitable lines all but disappeared and the age of the subsidised railway had dawned.

The railway now exists primarily for passenger services, that's true. However, the freight side does still exist. How it's all organised and subsidised is a massive subject for another thread. There is no escaping the fact that passengers in some parts of the country are benefitting from much higher levels of support than others.

Ensuring all revenue is collected on lines with unstaffed stations or working TVMs helps. Getting more passengers onto trains will help even more.

However the commercial logic behind the Beeching report remains in the background. I don't see closures as politically possible at present, but we can all see delayed and cut back investments in improved track and stations. MML electrification, Piccadilly 15 &16 - add your local project here.

Has this dispute been settled while I've been off on a ramble?

BurtonM said:

Bring on a week strike.

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Even though I don’t generally agree with the strikes yes, do this. It needs escalating to bring it to a head and force meaningful talks.

Bletchleyite said:

Even though I don’t generally agree with the strikes yes, do this. It needs escalating to bring it to a head and force meaningful talks.

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It won't happen. I have said it numerous times, the staff won't support it.

Gems said:

It won't happen. I have said it numerous times, the staff won't support it.

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Even though it's probably better (financially) than 52 more Saturdays off ?

Gems said:

It won't happen. I have said it numerous times, the staff won't support it.

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Your depot staff might not support it.

However I heard it mentioned and garnished a lot of support, and the proposal makes a lot of sense financially for guards and could cripple the network for an extended period.

One to watch for at the end of Feb.

yorksrob said:

The dispute could be solved tomorrow. DfT agrees to DO/GC and we could all get back to normal

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Or by the RMT going back to work and letting the managers manage.

Robertj21a said:

Even though it's probably better (financially) than 52 more Saturdays off ?

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In a maths equation sense, Yes.
But a week strike unless split Wednesday to Tuesday with the pay period finishing on the Saturday would mean a average of five missed shifts for most. If you did do Wednesday to Tuesday, some would miss all of the strikes due to rest day patterns, and some would cop for the lot.
I'm telling you the management would love it, because they know it would signal the beginning of the end. From a union standpoint, Saturdays are as far as they dare go.

Meerkat said:

Or by the RMT going back to work and letting the managers manage.

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The managers are managing. That is why you have a poor rail service.

Tell me what happened between now and say five years ago? I'll tell you what happened, they shifted those who knew how to run a railway out and got 'yes men' and fools in instead.

Meerkat said:

Or by the RMT going back to work and letting the managers manage.

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Or by allowing Northern to reach an agreement with the RMT, the Government could let the managers manage.

Gems said:

The managers are managing. That is why you have a poor rail service

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That is probably true, but is a totally different argument (and the RMT action is probably covering up a lot of the management incompetence)
The managers are there to manage, it isn’t the RMT’s job.

But anyway my point was that Yorkrobs comment was rather pointless as I could just as easily say the opposite.
The RMT can’t back down now or the larger war is lost, all they can do is keep the dispute trickling along hoping for a Corbyn government. Their only other option is to take the second person guarantee as a win and negotiate on exactly what that person does (a sensible leadership would drop the “safety critical” mantra but try to reinstate it bit by bit in the job description for the OBS)

yorksrob said:

Or by allowing Northern to reach an agreement with the RMT, the Government could let the managers manage.

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Are you sure they want to reach an agreement? I'm not. There is no communication whatsoever, the ineptitude of these people grows by the day. I think on Friday I saw possible the most ridiculous decision making by Northern control to date. It bordered on the farce, and it sums them up.

yorksrob said:

Or by allowing Northern to reach an agreement with the RMT, the Government could let the managers manage.

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That is a euphemism for leaving Northern at the mercy of union blackmail, knowing Northern will cave in as their interests are short term, ignoring the long term good of the industry/taxpayer.
As the DfT pay the bills, the DfT are the top managers, it’s up to them to specify the franchise within safety rules.

Meerkat said:

That is probably true, but is a totally different argument (and the RMT action is probably covering up a lot of the management incompetence)
The managers are there to manage, it isn’t the RMT’s job.

But anyway my point was that Yorkrobs comment was rather pointless as I could just as easily say the opposite.
The RMT can’t back down now or the larger war is lost, all they can do is keep the dispute trickling along hoping for a Corbyn government. Their only other option is to take the second person guarantee as a win and negotiate on exactly what that person does (a sensible leadership would drop the “safety critical” mantra but try to reinstate it bit by bit in the job description for the OBS)

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Quite agree. This has been my point all along.

Meerkat said:

That is a euphemism for leaving Northern at the mercy of union blackmail, knowing Northern will cave in as their interests are short term, ignoring the long term good of the industry/taxpayer.
As the DfT pay the bills, the DfT are the top managers, it’s up to them to specify the franchise within safety rules.

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How is it good for the Taxpayer when
1) ASLEF will just extract more money from the railway. You don't think they will do DCO from the goodness of their hearts do you.
2) The DFT sees the Taxpayer as a cash cow to fund the Tory ideology and hides the cost.

Meerkat said:

That is probably true, but is a totally different argument (and the RMT action is probably covering up a lot of the management incompetence)
The managers are there to manage, it isn’t the RMT’s job.

But anyway my point was that Yorkrobs comment was rather pointless as I could just as easily say the opposite.
The RMT can’t back down now or the larger war is lost, all they can do is keep the dispute trickling along hoping for a Corbyn government. Their only other option is to take the second person guarantee as a win and negotiate on exactly what that person does (a sensible leadership would drop the “safety critical” mantra but try to reinstate it bit by bit in the job description for the OBS)

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Gems said:

Are you sure they want to reach an agreement? I'm not. There is no communication whatsoever, the ineptitude of these people grows by the day. I think on Friday I saw possible the most ridiculous decision making by Northern control to date. It bordered on the farce, and it sums them up.

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There's a phrase "either p*** or get off the pot". If Northern don't want to run trains, they should step aside now.

yorksrob said:

There's a phrase "either p*** or get off the pot". If Northern don't want to run trains, they should step aside now.

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No, you are missing the point here. They want to run trains, but the whole system often means not running trains costs less.