What's going on with LNER's pricing policy?

Bungle73 · 18 Jan 2019

Last October for the 08:00 KGX to York train on a Wednesday I paid £34.30 (First Advance + Dis Railcard). Now it seems the cheapest (same) ticket for the same train appears to be £73.90! And this is despite the seat availability tool on their website saying that the pax loading for that train and journey is pretty light. I'm not travelling until October, so I don't need to book now, but I'm not expecting much to change re that price.

Oh, and while I'm here what's with this ongoing delay in releasing Advance tickets? I know it's due to NR delays in releasing paths, but why, and why does it affect tickets that were always released prior to them being released (ie week day ones) anyway?

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Romilly · 18 Jan 2019

Many LNER Advances, although by no means all, appear to be around 50% more than they were a year ago - or maybe I just travel on the wrong routes at the wrong times.

Haywain · 18 Jan 2019

If they are taking in more money than previously why would they worry?

Esker-pades · 18 Jan 2019

I'm still getting ~£40-45 for my First Advance Edinburgh to London (with railcard discount). With other journeys with them for this year I haven't noticed any difference.

Wallsendmag · 18 Jan 2019

Let’s have a think GNER failed NXEC failed and VTEC failed can anyone think why they need to charge more ?

Tetchytyke · 18 Jan 2019

VTEC failed because of price gouging, as did NXEC. It drove people away.

Clearly David Horne isn't one to learn from his mistakes, though.

BigCj34 · 18 Jan 2019

It's not like LNER have premium payments to meet unlike VTEC, so surely they can afford to be more experimental

30907 · 18 Jan 2019

I imagine LNER have decided that York is an exceptionally popular destination for First Class, but it's odd that it only affects that segment.

87electric · 19 Jan 2019

ECML is my line and I was a casual off peak traveller spending between 2-3k a year. With eye watering prices in recent years I have now switched to coach travel for many journeys. In some cases I will fly. If LNER and its successors want my future custom they know what to do.
I shudder at how season ticket holders face continual fare rises.

yorkie · 19 Jan 2019

Do you have to get the 0800? This non stop train is charged at a premium as it's popular for London to Edinburgh journeys.

Is the 0806 any good? It's £32.95, less than you paid last year. There will be fewer people in 1st on that train so you will likely get a more attentive service too.

Wallsendmag · 19 Jan 2019

30907 said:
I imagine LNER have decided that York is an exceptionally popular destination for First Class, but it's odd that it only affects that segment.

yorkie said:
Do you have to get the 0800? This non stop train is charged at a premium as it's popular for London to Edinburgh journeys.

Is the 0806 any good? It's £32.95, less than you paid last year. There will be fewer people in 1st on that train so you will likely get a more attentive service too.

Exactly, Anglo Scottish trains are priced to prioritize the longer journeys while the semi fasts off much better value.

philthetube · 19 Jan 2019

yorkie said:
Do you have to get the 0800? This non stop train is charged at a premium as it's popular for London to Edinburgh journeys.

Is the 0806 any good? It's £32.95, less than you paid last year. There will be fewer people in 1st on that train so you will likely get a more attentive service too.

And this is how advance pricing should work.

Bungle73 · 19 Jan 2019

The 8:06 is Grand Central, so no free hot breakfast. The other train I was looking at was the 07:06, which when I looked was about forty something. The trouble with that is that it means leaving home much earlier, and I'm already leaving at silly o'clock as I'm coming from Kent.

I think I'm going to have to decide between paying far more than I did last year, or having to leave earlier.

The aim to is get to York as early as possible in the morning, so that I have the whole day there, so it's basically like I'd stayed the previous night, but I save myself a night's hotel fee. That's what I did last year: I got myself three whole days of holiday, but only paid for two nights in the hotel. That's the reason for leaving home so early - I left at @05:35 last year.

yorkie · 19 Jan 2019

Bungle73 said:
The 8:06 is Grand Central, so no free hot breakfast.

At around £40 difference, that's the most expensive breakfast you'll ever have!

If a breakfast on the train is important to you, I'd go for the 07:06 or 09:06

Unfortunately it is just a matter of compromising and making a choice.

A lot of people want to get the 08:00 train, so the price reflects that. It's market based pricing in action.

I'd also consider purchasing this as a through journey* if you are starting your journey in Kent, so that you obtain a through itinerary. This will provide good evidence in the event of any delays or if there are any short notice changes to the timetable (there have been a lot of those lately).

(* It does not have to be a through ticket of course, there are plenty of sites that will sell a combination of tickets if that happens to be cheaper, though travelling in the early hours from Kent it probably won't be)

Bungle73 · 19 Jan 2019

I like experience. It's a novelty, especially for someone whose usual train experience is Standard class on Southeastern.

IME it's cheaper to book each leg separately. If I book it straight through then I'm paying for first class when the trains into St. Pancras don't have a first class, so I book that part in Standard. And SE's Advances come out later than LNER's......or they usually do. Oh, and there is another problem with trying to book straight through, it limits the LNER trains that it will put me on, eg it won't give me the cheaper York terminators.

I will say this though, last year I stayed in Edinburgh earlier in the year, and paid over £500 for a four night stay in a hotel. This year I am staying there again (different hotel) for the same four nights, but this time for only ~£119, so even with more expensive York train I am still saving overall on what I shelled out for last year.

yorkie said:
A lot of people want to get the 08:00 train, so the price reflects that. It's market based pricing in action.

Why has that changed from previously then? As I say, according to LNER's own website that train leaves KGX with plenty of spare seats.

Silver Cobra · 20 Jan 2019

Bungle73 said:
The 8:06 is Grand Central, so no free hot breakfast. The other train I was looking at was the 07:06, which when I looked was about forty something. The trouble with that is that it means leaving home much earlier, and I'm already leaving at silly o'clock as I'm coming from Kent.

I think I'm going to have to decide between paying far more than I did last year, or having to leave earlier.

The aim to is get to York as early as possible in the morning, so that I have the whole day there, so it's basically like I'd stayed the previous night, but I save myself a night's hotel fee. That's what I did last year: I got myself three whole days of holiday, but only paid for two nights in the hotel. That's the reason for leaving home so early - I left at @05:35 last year.

If you don't mind travelling on the 0730 LNER service, if you split your ticket at Peterborough, it brings the cost down from £73.90 to £35.20 (I checked this using March 28th and April 4th as test dates and both gave this result). Where the 0800 does not call at Peterborough, this split can't be done for this service unfortunately.

RJ · 20 Jan 2019

yorkie said:
Do you have to get the 0800? This non stop train is charged at a premium as it's popular for London to Edinburgh journeys.

Is the 0806 any good? It's £32.95, less than you paid last year. There will be fewer people in 1st on that train so you will likely get a more attentive service too.

Buyer beware with Grand Central First Class. I travelled on it once and was put off forever. The carriage and tables were strewn with litter, power points not working, no hot food available, crowded, with some passengers discussing how they did not have a FC ticket and would move when challenged, which they weren't. The bloke with the trolley looked miserable and claimed there were no soft drinks other than bottled water, until a regular who knew the offering convinced him to go and fetch them.

If a premium product is what the OP is after and prepared to pay for, I wouldn't use or recommend that First Class service to be honest.

I haven't used the ECML's express service under this week's management team but at least the hard product delivers.

Bungle73 · 20 Jan 2019

Silver Cobra said:
If you don't mind travelling on the 0730 LNER service, if you split your ticket at Peterborough, it brings the cost down from £73.90 to £35.20 (I checked this using March 28th and April 4th as test dates and both gave this result). Where the 0800 does not call at Peterborough, this split can't be done for this service unfortunately.

Thanks for that - that might be the one. I did look actually look at split tickets the other day, but didn't try that combination. I was using a split ticketing website, but it doesn't let you specify first class tickets.

Bungle73 · 20 Jan 2019

The only snag with getting a train earlier than the one I booked last year is that the first class lounge is closed.

yorkie · 20 Jan 2019

Bungle73 said:
Thanks for that - that might be the one. I did look actually look at split tickets the other day, but didn't try that combination. I was using a split ticketing website, but it doesn't let you specify first class tickets.

Which site was that? Trainsplit lets you do that, and finds it.

Bungle73 said:
IME it's cheaper to book each leg separately. If I book it straight through then I'm paying for first class when the trains into St. Pancras don't have a first class

A good splitting site won't give you a 1st class ticket to cover the part of the journey into St Pancras unless it's cheaper to do so.

Bungle73 said:
so I book that part in Standard. And SE's Advances come out later than LNER's......or they usually do. Oh, and there is another problem with trying to book straight through, it limits the LNER trains that it will put me on, eg it won't give me the cheaper York terminators.

A good splitting site lets you choose advanced options such as avoiding TOCs (such as Grand Central), additional interchange time (e.g. at King's Cross), or requiring the train calls at particular stations (e.g. at Retford)

Bungle73 · 20 Jan 2019

yorkie said:
Which site was that? Trainsplit lets you do that, and finds it.

https://www.splitticketing.com/

I can't find any option on the site you mentioned to specify first class tickets.

A good splitting site won't give you a 1st class ticket to cover the part of the journey into St Pancras unless it's cheaper to do so.

But that isn't the straight through ticket that you were advising me to get earlier.

A good splitting site lets you choose advanced options such as avoiding TOCs (such as Grand Central), additional interchange time (e.g. at King's Cross), or requiring the train calls at particular stations (e.g. at Retford)

I prefer to book directly on LNER's website, so I can use the seat selector.

JP · 20 Jan 2019

Wallsendmag said:
Let’s have a think GNER failed NXEC failed and VTEC failed can anyone think why they need to charge more ?

If the problem was not having enough cash to cover its obligations, the answer isn't always just increase fares to get enough cash. That only works if your demand is inelastic.

I've been a fortnightly London to Newcastle traveller since 2010. Back in the East Coast days I'd virtually never consider alternatives since advance fares were good and there was good availability on trains throughout the day. The only time I did an alternative was in 2013 or 2014 when Grand Central did a deal where every train was £15 (or maybe £20) even for walk up fares.

After VTEC and now LNER that isn't the case any more. After the evening peak northbound you'll often find all trains are now the same price except the very last one of the day and on the whole fares are higher. So now I check LNER direct, changing for a Cross Country or TPE service at York, Grand Central to Sunderland and then Northern/Metro, car hire which is often £1 + fuel, and flights to Heathrow (and now London City too, which is even more compelling). The overall outcome being that even if I use rail for the whole trip LNER is getting far less cash from me than they have done in the past.

I set up alerts to get tickets for a day in April recently for an early morning train. Starting price was £69.50 for the first four trains of the day, and £86 for the next one. So instead I've booked a flight to London City for £75. I get more time in bed and get to work in London at the same time. Even the 9am BA flight to Heathrow is £53 and can be lower.

I don't think I'm unique in changing behaviour like this.

yorkie · 20 Jan 2019

Bungle73 said:
https://www.splitticketing.com/

Basically the same as Trainsplit but with a booking fee.

Bungle73 said:
I can't find any option on the site you mentioned to specify first class tickets.

There is a '1st Class' button when you are presented with the itinearies.

Bungle73 said:
But that isn't the straight through ticket that you were advising me to get earlier.

I said it doesn't have to be a through ticket: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/whats-going-on-with-lners-pricing-policy.176799/#post-3835059

Bungle73 said:
I prefer to book directly on LNER's website, so I can use the seat selector.

here is no one site that does everything at this moment in time, so there are choices you have to make.

I understand a seat selector is on the way for split ticketing sites, but in the mean time the choice is either to book through LNER or visit a ticket office to get the reservation changed if you want a different seat to the one allocated (or possibly via Twitter though I am not sure if LNER will do it via Twitter or not). That said if you were to get the 07:06 you'd have plenty of choice of seats on the day.

There is no reason why you cannot book the seats through each company but it can have disadvantages, including:
1) if you need to change your travel plans you may have to pay two sets of admin fees instead of one
2) if the timetable changes then this may result in a dispute that may be tricky to resolve without a through itinerary (e.g. if your first train ceases to be a valid connection into the second one)
3) If you were embroiled in a dispute with either LNER or Southeastern there isn't an overall retailer for your whole journey who could back you up.

But if you are confident arguing your case in the event of any issues, then by all means book each part of your journey separately.

Bungle73 · 20 Jan 2019

yorkie said:
Basically the same as Trainsplit but with a booking fee.

There is a '1st Class' button when you are presented with the itinearies.

Thanks. I see it now.

I said it doesn't have to be a through ticket: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/whats-going-on-with-lners-pricing-policy.176799/#post-3835059

What you said was.....

yorkie said:
I'd also consider purchasing this as a through journey* if you are starting your journey in Kent, so that you obtain a through itinerary. This will provide good evidence in the event of any delays or if there are any short notice changes to the timetable (there have been a lot of those lately).

(* It does not have to be a through ticket of course, there are plenty of sites that will sell a combination of tickets if that happens to be cheaper, though travelling in the early hours from Kent it probably won't be)

And that doesn't change the problem of the tickets not being available at the same time. And if I go on there now and ask for a Sittingbourne to York ticket for the latest date LNER tickets are available it only offers an Anytime ticket at over £150!

If I wait and buy each leg separately (which I have been doing for years with no problem btw) then for the SE part I can buy an Anytime Single for the out trip, and an Advance (which last time I bought one was only about six pounds something) for the return.

There is no reason why you cannot book the seats through each company but it can have disadvantages, including:
1) if you need to change your travel plans you may have to pay two sets of admin fees instead of one
2) if the timetable changes then this may result in a dispute that may be tricky to resolve without a through itinerary (e.g. if your first train ceases to be a valid connection into the second one)
3) If you were embroiled in a dispute with either LNER or Southeastern there isn't an overall retailer for your whole journey who could back you up.

But if you are confident arguing your case in the event of any issues, then by all means book each part of your journey separately.

1) I think the chances of needing do that are slim to none.

2) I'm not sure what sort of changes you are envisaging? Unless SE decide to suddenly stop running weekday early morning trains, which is unlikely, I don't foresee any problem of that sort occurring. Besides, as that part of the journey would be on an Anytime ticket I'm free to catch any train I like. And I usually aim to arrive at KGX about an hour before my booked train anyway. Last year I got there later because I had to get up so early, and if I do get the 7:30 train this year that I'm looking at I will probably aim to get the SE train that arrives around twenty to seven (the next one is a bit tight for my liking), which gives me plenty of time.

3) I don't see that ever happening, short of missing a connection due to one train being late, but that should be easy to sort out on the day.

radamfi · 20 Jan 2019

JP said:
car hire which is often £1 + fuel

How do you get such cheap car hire?

JP · 20 Jan 2019

LivingBelowYM said:
How do you get such cheap car hire?

https://www.europcar.co.uk/deals/one-way-uk.step

For when the car companies need to move their cars about they only charge £1 but obviously you can't pick and choose routes. Hertz and Avis sometimes do it too.

yorkie · 20 Jan 2019

Bungle73 said:
Thanks. I see it now.

What you said was.....

And that doesn't change the problem of the tickets not being available at the same time. And if I go on there now and ask for a Sittingbourne to York ticket for the latest date LNER tickets are available it only offers an Anytime ticket at over £150!

If I wait and buy each leg separately (which I have been doing for years with no problem btw) then for the SE part I can buy an Anytime Single for the out trip, and an Advance (which last time I bought one was only about six pounds something) for the return.

1) I think the chances of needing do that are slim to none.

2) I'm not sure what sort of changes you are envisaging? Unless SE decide to suddenly stop running weekday early morning trains, which is unlikely, I don't foresee any problem of that sort occurring. Besides, as that part of the journey would be on an Anytime ticket I'm free to catch any train I like. And I usually aim to arrive at KGX about an hour before my booked train anyway. Last year I got there later because I had to get up so early, and if I do get the 7:30 train this year that I'm looking at I will probably aim to get the SE train that arrives around twenty to seven (the next one is a bit tight for my liking), which gives me plenty of time.

3) I don't see that ever happening, short of missing a connection due to one train being late, but that should be easy to sort out on the day.

That's all fine, but I have been made aware of an increasing number of instances where a passengers intended itinerary is no longer possible on the day, due to late notice changes to the timetable, and this has caused all sorts of hassle for customers, so my advice to anyone who wants peace of mind is to book their intended journey in one go if possible. This means the customer can easily produce evidence of a contract for a through journey.

If it's not possible, or the person making the booking and journey is confident in being able to resolve issues, then by all means book each leg separately.

Starmill · 21 Jan 2019

Bungle73 said:
Last October for the 08:00 KGX to York train on a Wednesday I paid £34.30 (First Advance + Dis Railcard). Now it seems the cheapest (same) ticket for the same train appears to be £73.90!

Bungle73 said:
but I'm not expecting much to change re that price.

You open by stating that you have noticed a large price change over a couple of months, but state that you expect little change over the next period of a couple of months.

Bungle73 said:
I'm already leaving at silly o'clock as I'm coming from Kent.

You opened the thread by asking for booking advice from London to York, but then you brought up a journey from Kent (though you didn't say where in Kent).

Bungle73 said:
Sittingbourne to York

Only at this late stage do you first mention Sittingbourne.

Bungle73 said:
I will say this though, last year I stayed in Edinburgh earlier in the year, and paid over £500 for a four night stay in a hotel. This year I am staying there again (different hotel) for the same four nights, but this time for only ~£119, so even with more expensive York train I am still saving overall on what I shelled out for last year.

What does Edinburgh have to do with your journey to York? Are you travelling to Edinburgh?

Bungle73 said:
Last October for the 08:00 KGX to York train

Bungle73 said:
The aim to is get to York as early as possible in the morning

In the opening post you express a strong preference for the 0800 non-stop service, then again to arrive in York as soon as you possibly can.
But then here you criticise the inability to select a slower train:

Bungle73 said:
eg it won't give me the cheaper York terminators.

Even though this ability is not removed, it is just slightly less convenient, as yorkie went on to explain.

Unfortunately the way you go about asking the question makes it very difficult to provide helpful advice to you. It's not clear from the start what your priroties are, and unfortunately, there is some contradiction of yourself in your posts.

The best advice is to go to raileasy.trainsplit.com, input your journey (whatever it is), select your desired class of travel after the results are generated, and then select 'value' from the options at the top. There may also be a button that says 'intensive search' which you can press if you don't see any good-value options to your liking.

Bungle73 said:
As I say, according to LNER's own website that train leaves KGX with plenty of spare seats.

LNER are focussed on short-run profit maximisation. Their aim is not absolutely to have as many passengers as they can on the train, but to maximise revenue.

Paul Kelly · 21 Jan 2019

yorkie said:
Bungle73 said:

https://www.splitticketing.com/

Click to expand...

https://www.splitticketing.com/
Basically the same as Trainsplit but with a booking fee.

Plus also a higher split saving commission. So "the same", but much more expensive!

Bungle73 · 15 Feb 2019

How the hell can this be right??

KGX to Edinburgh £43.55

Exactly the SAME train KGX to York £73.90!!

8 am 6th May.

In which alternate reality does that make the slightest bit of sense?

What's going on with LNER's pricing policy?

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