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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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ChiefPlanner

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So when does Thameslink MML get some additional Sunday services ? - just about copes at the moment. Very regular standing when the franchise is supposed to offer a seat (not standing) , off peak. Overall business is holding up well , and with claimed buoyancy for both rail to Luton and especially to Gatwick now that the London Bridge route is now in service.

As I have said before , 2 TPH to Bedford is well below expectations or what the market demands. (or is someone saving costs) , presumably there is a timetable derogation from the DfT

Almost worth an FOI disclosure request.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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Or, you know, Thameslink GN get *literally any services at all at weekends*.

I quite agree with your sentiments. As said before - making the point that about 50% of the service ran on time , does not really compensate for a half service offer.

In passing, for some reason , network performance has held up well since Christmas (the usual issues with one - off incidents etc) , with national PPM quite improved. On this basis - GTR north of the Thames on both routes should be trying to put more trains into service . Await comments , if any.
 

hwl

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I quite agree with your sentiments. As said before - making the point that about 50% of the service ran on time , does not really compensate for a half service offer.

In passing, for some reason , network performance has held up well since Christmas (the usual issues with one - off incidents etc) , with national PPM quite improved. On this basis - GTR north of the Thames on both routes should be trying to put more trains into service . Await comments , if any.

The next sensible change should probably be getting the 717s into service (properly not just toe dipping), then upping service levels MML/ECML TL and outer GN service levels, trying to do this and other changes may be too much at once. Retiring the 313s would help with space and simpfiy quite few things.
 

bramling

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I think you're quite right seeing how many on here keep on and on and on about the Class 365s, I doubt I need to say who though do I? :lol:

Being serious, it's not hard to see why it might be. The KX trains are generally reliable, and one gets to sit on the train in comfort rather than at a windswept Farringdon or being deafened by the squeal at St Pancras. Clearly people are planning their timings round them.
 

GoatSarah

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I quite agree with your sentiments. As said before - making the point that about 50% of the service ran on time , does not really compensate for a half service offer.

I do the Cambridge to Brighton trip quite a bit, and often come bak at weekends, when I have to transfer to GN at Kings Cross. It's always, without exception, nose to armpit.

I'm astonished they had the nerve to increase prices a few weeks ago. The French would be burning tractors over this.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Being serious, it's not hard to see why it might be. The KX trains are generally reliable, and one gets to sit on the train in comfort rather than at a windswept Farringdon or being deafened by the squeal at St Pancras. Clearly people are planning their timings round them.

Blackfriars makes Farringdon seem tropical - ! , (about as cold as Putney Bridge used to be in the Winter) ....to be honest I have never seen more than a 50% load on a GN bound service in the core. Weekdays that is.
 

GoatSarah

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Blackfriars makes Farringdon seem tropical - ! , (about as cold as Putney Bridge used to be in the Winter) ....to be honest I have never seen more than a 50% load on a GN bound service in the core. Weekdays that is.

Plenty of places upstairs to wait at St Pancras. It doesn't take long to get to Platform B from the food court.
 

bramling

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Plenty of places upstairs to wait at St Pancras. It doesn't take long to get to Platform B from the food court.

If I wanted to spend time eating I could quite happily spend some extra time in my office, which is rather more comfortable than some tacky food court! That's the problem with the unpredictability of the Thameslink service - turn up on time and play the lottery of how late will the train be.
 

GoatSarah

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If I wanted to spend time eating I could quite happily spend some extra time in my office, which is rather more comfortable than some tacky food court! That's the problem with the unpredictability of the Thameslink service - turn up on time and play the lottery of how late will the train be.

Screw eating. You'll find me in The Parcel Yard or The Betjamin
 

ChiefPlanner

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Screw eating. You'll find me in The Parcel Yard or The Betjamin

Veering off topic , but the new "Spoons" at Pancras looks encouraging.

Anyway , how does one get a better Sunday service. Even a couple of semi-fast Luton starters PM Sunday would make a difference. Especially for the Airport and the % of the 7.4 million passengers from St Albans.
 

Ianno87

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If I wanted to spend time eating I could quite happily spend some extra time in my office, which is rather more comfortable than some tacky food court! That's the problem with the unpredictability of the Thameslink service - turn up on time and play the lottery of how late will the train be.

Or just look up how its running on RTT/NRE/whatever and set off accordingly. Plenty of notice for a train from Brighton or Horsham.

Incidentally, my regular afternoon Brighton-Cambridge trains on Friday afternoons for the past few weeks have presented at Blackfriars like clockwork.
 

Aictos

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London terminals is literally what the machine sells me when I ask for a BFR ticket. No other types are available.

I'll record video of it in case I ever get gripped. "I bought a ticket to Blackfriars, this is what the machine gave me, look."

However the ticket office should be able to retail the ticket you actually want.

Not according to the ticket machines at Cambridge they don't.

GTR's TVMs aren't the best, I had to collect my tickets at the ticket office window recently and had to undergo a interrogation at the window about collecting them because the TVM had a wobbly so not surprised of TVM issues at Cambridge even if they're operated by Greater Anglia.

Being serious, it's not hard to see why it might be. The KX trains are generally reliable, and one gets to sit on the train in comfort rather than at a windswept Farringdon or being deafened by the squeal at St Pancras. Clearly people are planning their timings round them.

That's your personal opinion though, the Class 365s lost their claim to being comfortable when the WAGN refurbishment was ripped out by FCC/GTR with the only comfort being the few priority only seats which is mine.

As to your claims of windswept Farringdon you make it sound like worse then it actually is, it's not that bad and as to the deafened by the squeal at St Pancras claim, that's just the infrastructure so again you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

If I wanted to spend time eating I could quite happily spend some extra time in my office, which is rather more comfortable than some tacky food court! That's the problem with the unpredictability of the Thameslink service - turn up on time and play the lottery of how late will the train be.

Of course forgetting that Thameslink also run from Kings Cross which with the St Pancras ones actually gives you timetabled 3tph which is acceptable especially when you also consider the 2tph that Great Northern also runs from Kings Cross so for Hitchin, Letchworth users they are spoilt for choice with 5tph.

As to the unpredictability of the Thameslink service, as TL serve both stations there's nothing stopping you from picking one up at the other station other then your well advertised hatred of the Class 700s and the GTR timetable.

Or just look up how its running on RTT/NRE/whatever and set off accordingly. Plenty of notice for a train from Brighton or Horsham.

Indeed but that does seem like hard work for some although it really isn't unless you're the type of person who leaves everything until the last minute?

Plus with Open Time Trains etc you can see where your train is too so bar last minute alterations at the Cross there's plenty of time to be on the platform.
 

Aictos

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London Terminals tickets are cheaper, and since that's what the machine vends when I ask for a BFR ticket, that's what I'll use!

I would agree if it was a decent difference in price but at just £2 difference, I don't think it matters much which ticket you go for.
 

hwl

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Anyway , how does one get a better Sunday service. Even a couple of semi-fast Luton starters PM Sunday would make a difference. Especially for the Airport and the % of the 7.4 million passengers from St Albans.
More new drivers and more additional route training for some existing drivers. Presumably there are still some Cambridge Drivers not 700 trained? if so add that as well.

It looks like the Monday - Friday still needs a bigger proportion of resources than it should long term so until that eases a bit more I can't see GTR wanting to step up services again
 

GoatSarah

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I would agree if it was a decent difference in price but at just £2 difference, I don't think it matters much which ticket you go for.

It's the principle. They had the nerve to put prices up while *still* running an emergency timetable, £2 is £2, and anyway, if I wanted the more expensive one i'd have to talk to a human and I dislike that.
 

grid56126

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Thanks for the insight. It is good to know these will be included so GTR are not totally getting away with it. I will never understand why controllers seem to think leaving stations with a 2 hour gap is a good thing, but suspect that as the return journey was on time 1 failure is better than 2. As they are only bothered by ppm statistics who care how the passengers suffer.
Whilst your stance suggests I will not be able to get you to believe me, you could not be further from the truth with your last statement. Controllers tend to have a lot more to manage in their day to day role than PPM. I am not going to state it has no impact, but the simple maths tells you to get PPM better you need to cancel, run fast, terminate short or start short to get the service back to what people want, on time trains. That's almost certainly 2 x PPM failures to get a stock diagram back and if the crew don't stay with stock (very frequent) that's another potential failure or two. What is happening during recovery is the controller is putting all his / her eggs back where they belong in the basket, because sure as eggs is eggs, if a Down train is left to "run out" it's lateness (PPM failure without lifting a finger) and come back late (PPM failure without lifting a finger) the chances are the driver on your late train is booked to relieve one in front that's on time. Now you are terminating the train ahead of it short due to no relief and delaying the one behind even more because you sat on your hands worrying about skipping stops to save PPM . . But that's debunked. Had the first or second train been skip stopped there would still have been PPM failures, but trains would have been in the right order for driver relief and tge one that had no relief wouldn't have taken 2 x PPM hits at least to recover.

Controllers juggle customer need, requirement to get the railway back on time to avoid crew and fleet limitations, stakeholder pressure and sometijes trends identified - there are regular locations identified that stop intervention where the make up of the timetable leaves easy wins that get repeated so these get "stopped" and something else has to "give". Yes the result of a poor period of PPM will concentrate some minds, but did you know Network Rail and the TOC are not always measured for the same thing? The GN route is certainly one where this exists. NR are measured far more stringently than the TOC for PPM. That 's another conversation the controller is having.

I am not going to say they get all of that right everytime and I could probably quote a few times when in past roles I have made some poor choices as a controller, but none have ever made with some form of deliberate destruction in mind or an evil grin laughing at people left on platforms. Some come into control roles and when they have a realisation that a split second decision to cancel a train, or skip stops will directly affect hundreds of people, they walk away. It is a hell of a responsibility and it's not one people take lightly.

Controllers do travel on trains, they do get home late because trains run fast or get cancelled or are full and standing. they do have empathy.
 

DaveN

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So when does Thameslink MML get some additional Sunday services ?

Well according to the data on Real Time Trains at the moment, from May back to 4TPH to/from Bedford. But the offical line from https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables
is
"We are planning to introduce additions to the weekend service in May 2019 and further increases at future timetable changes. Further details will be shared once the final timetables have been determined and agreed with industry partners."
 

jon0844

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London terminals is literally what the machine sells me when I ask for a BFR ticket. No other types are available.

I'll record video of it in case I ever get gripped. "I bought a ticket to Blackfriars, this is what the machine gave me, look."

I used to get offered those from Hatfield and WGC to Blackfriars. I think they fixed it after I reported it online, as the ticket sold was clearly not valid - but if a TVM issues one (and I had the photos of the menus) then I'd expect to win any appeal.

It seems that either the software can't work out the validity or it just has a list of fares that aren't checked for validity - that part supposedly done before the data is sent to the machines.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Well according to the data on Real Time Trains at the moment, from May back to 4TPH to/from Bedford. But the offical line from https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables
is
"We are planning to introduce additions to the weekend service in May 2019 and further increases at future timetable changes. Further details will be shared once the final timetables have been determined and agreed with industry partners."

Thank you for that. Some of the missing overnight services (weekdays) go back in as well ....so some progress. It is not that they are carting fresh air around.:D
 

Failed Unit

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Whilst your stance suggests I will not be able to get you to believe me, you could not be further from the truth with your last statement. Controllers tend to have a lot more to manage in their day to day role than PPM. I am not going to state it has no impact, but the simple maths tells you to get PPM better you need to cancel, run fast, terminate short or start short to get the service back to what people want, on time trains. That's almost certainly 2 x PPM failures to get a stock diagram back and if the crew don't stay with stock (very frequent) that's another potential failure or two. What is happening during recovery is the controller is putting all his / her eggs back where they belong in the basket, because sure as eggs is eggs, if a Down train is left to "run out" it's lateness (PPM failure without lifting a finger) and come back late (PPM failure without lifting a finger) the chances are the driver on your late train is booked to relieve one in front that's on time. Now you are terminating the train ahead of it short due to no relief and delaying the one behind even more because you sat on your hands worrying about skipping stops to save PPM . . But that's debunked. Had the first or second train been skip stopped there would still have been PPM failures, but trains would have been in the right order for driver relief and tge one that had no relief wouldn't have taken 2 x PPM hits at least to recover.

Controllers juggle customer need, requirement to get the railway back on time to avoid crew and fleet limitations, stakeholder pressure and sometijes trends identified - there are regular locations identified that stop intervention where the make up of the timetable leaves easy wins that get repeated so these get "stopped" and something else has to "give". Yes the result of a poor period of PPM will concentrate some minds, but did you know Network Rail and the TOC are not always measured for the same thing? The GN route is certainly one where this exists. NR are measured far more stringently than the TOC for PPM. That 's another conversation the controller is having.

I am not going to say they get all of that right everytime and I could probably quote a few times when in past roles I have made some poor choices as a controller, but none have ever made with some form of deliberate destruction in mind or an evil grin laughing at people left on platforms. Some come into control roles and when they have a realisation that a split second decision to cancel a train, or skip stops will directly affect hundreds of people, they walk away. It is a hell of a responsibility and it's not one people take lightly.

Controllers do travel on trains, they do get home late because trains run fast or get cancelled or are full and standing. they do have empathy.

Thanks for your response, you will be surprised that my head isn’t totally in the sand.

I have just experienced GTR skipping stops for delays as low as 7 minutes. Then never actually recover 1 minute (or even lose further time). This could be a breakdown in communication as the controller may have hoped the train would use the fast, but remained on the slow behind the stopping train.

Do GTR actually get any punishment for PPM failure as this is a management contract? They don’t care if passengers stop using the service as they don’t have revenue risk, as we can see by their refusal to sort out the weekend service.

I see in Scotland political pressure has came into force to only miss stops if the operator has no choice. Other users may disagree but on great northern it seems to be the default reaction if the train is only slightly late, which could be recovered in the turnaround assuming the train didn’t get any later.
 

GoatSarah

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Thank you for that. Some of the missing overnight services (weekdays) go back in as well ....so some progress. It is not that they are carting fresh air around.:D

Where are you seeing that? I can’t get RTT to give me anything past the middle of April.
 

30907

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Where are you seeing that? I can’t get RTT to give me anything past the middle of April.
It works for me if I select station, go into detailed mode, and alter the time.
I can then change the date beyond 12 weeks.
 

JonathanH

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Well according to the data on Real Time Trains at the moment, from May back to 4TPH to/from Bedford. But the offical line from https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/travel-information/plan-your-journey/timetables
is
"We are planning to introduce additions to the weekend service in May 2019 and further increases at future timetable changes. Further details will be shared once the final timetables have been determined and agreed with industry partners."

At a guess they would still chop that back to 2tph whenever there is engineering work either side of the Thames. 4tph semi-fast to Bedford and a separate stopping service is only possible when four tracks are available.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Where are you seeing that? I can’t get RTT to give me anything past the middle of April.

There was an article in the Herts Ad , quoting the Passenger Services Director , S Cheshire , giving the gen on a bright future for Harpenden and more night services going back back in.

The 2 tph overnight services were in the original franchise as I recall. A commitment - a slow Luton and a semi-fast Bedford.
 

ChiefPlanner

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At a guess they would still chop that back to 2tph whenever there is engineering work either side of the Thames. 4tph semi-fast to Bedford and a separate stopping service is only possible when four tracks are available.


There are variations on where the 2 tracks are - they have cleverly turned the all stations off Luton at Kentish Town before , feeding into the south of London service by calling everything at West Hampstead.

After all - they have a 2 track railway after 2200 each evening to play with...
 
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