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Northern writing to ACAS requesting independent inquiry

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Shaw S Hunter

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It has been reported on here time and time again that it only takes a week or so to train a contingency guard.

Were those reports incorrect?

Contingency guards (AKA PUGs = Person Used as Guard) are already railway staff with at least some knowledge of operational practice. Indeed some are required to maintain guards' competence as part of their regular job and a few are ex-guards who can quickly be brought up to speed (in theory). So yes, PUGs typically have been given just a week's training. But someone coming into the role from outside would have no chance of being competent with that amount of training. Guards' training course typically lasts three months with route learning on top. I would imagine senior management at least are praying that no PUG finds themselves having to deal with a major out-of-course situation...
 

JetStream

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2) Where dispatchers are provided then drivers can close the doors and take the right away from the dispatchers without guards intervention (where not available guards would remain responsible for closing doors/giving the right away). It's always seemed to me that having dispatchers is the safest form of handling dispatching a train so you struggle to make an argument that it isn't as safe as having a guard do it. I know there's an argument about watching the train out of the platform ready to give one on the bell but a) on modern stock with no opening windows in most positions it's almost impossible to actually do this effectively and b) there's no reason you couldn't still have guards do that. It's a compromise that gives the DfT/Northern a bit of their "modernisation" without compromising safety.

I agree with this. In addition, on some trains where guards operate doors in the middle of carriages/between carriages it seems like they leave doors when that section has left the platform?
 

bb21

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It has been reported on here time and time again that it only takes a week or so to train a contingency guard.

Were those reports incorrect?
Most certainly incorrect if you are talking full competency from scratch.

PTS will take you two days for a start, add in rules training, traction training, route knowledge training, assessment, etc.

It will take much longer than a week just for one route and one traction.
 

Llanigraham

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It has been reported on here time and time again that it only takes a week or so to train a contingency guard.

Were those reports incorrect?

Knowing people who have gone through the ATW guard's course at Machynlleth, very incorrect!
 

Killingworth

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Most certainly incorrect if you are talking full competency from scratch.

PTS will take you two days for a start, add in rules training, traction training, route knowledge training, assessment, etc.

It will take much longer than a week just for one route and one traction.

Which should remind us that all these PUGs are supposed to be performing some other role for Northern while undergoing training. When they're working on trains on what would normally be a rest day they may be taking days off in lieu.

The day job has to suffer or leisure time is lost, maybe both. If it doesn't how is there enough slack to allow them to perform their duties? After so many months the cracks must be showing. Non urgent tasks can be put off for so long but some must be becoming critical. Having managed through a 3 month dispute myself I know I was knackered. Things had to be left. There's going to be some catching up to be done once it's over.

This dispute's effects will not be limited to what happens out on the trains. We've talked of collateral damage for passengers. There'll be more within the company in all sorts of ways.
 

yorksrob

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It is a real pity that Northern took a conservative option and ordered conventional stock rather than low-floor with gap-bridging ramps. Had they done the latter, there would have been the gain that any OBS could have spent their whole time dealing with passengers, as it would remove the need for passenger assistance as well as a massive safety gain.

Without that, it might as well be driver open, guard close if the OBS is going to have to go to a door at each station anyway.

I doubt it could have happened quickly enough to head off our current trouble. You'd need to start off with a fully amended fleet to make it a fete accomplis.
 

yorksrob

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I opened this thread but fear it's approaching time for closure. Nothing new, unless the mere 3 weeks announced for the latest round of strikes can be taken as a less bad sign. It reminds me of taking the children by car on holiday. "Are we nearly there yet?" Just over the next hill, then the next, and round the corner. If only someone today had a map.

I don't see much point in closing the only current thread on the most damaging and urgent problem facing the industry today.
 

bb21

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Just to clarify, this thread should be used for discussions about ACAS involvement and closely-related topics surrounding strategies, that other thread about strike dates and related service disruption. Forum staff are aware that natural thread drift does occur, and there will inevitably be some overlaps from time to time, but as long as everyone keeps the discussion civil and on topic, we are happy for threads to remain open.

Much as we don't wish to restrict topical discussions where possible, we do reserve the right to curtail threads where it is deemed appropriate, eg. deliberate provocation or an overheated debate, or where too many simultaneous discussions about the same core topic take place.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Contingency guards (AKA PUGs = Person Used as Guard) are already railway staff with at least some knowledge of operational practice. Indeed some are required to maintain guards' competence as part of their regular job and a few are ex-guards who can quickly be brought up to speed (in theory). So yes, PUGs typically have been given just a week's training. But someone coming into the role from outside would have no chance of being competent with that amount of training. Guards' training course typically lasts three months with route learning on top..

So if Northern had had the presence of mind to take on agency staff/ contractors last September when RMT guards decided they didn't want to work Saturdays any more they'd be fully trained by now!
 

yorksrob

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We do seem to have another thread running; Next set of strike dates announced for Northern

Which rather proves the point that at least one should be kept open:s Would that it didn't.

The other thread seems to be fairly specifically about which days are strike days. This seems to be the only one around whether those who should actually be running the railway, actually do something to resolve the issue.
 

bb21

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So if Northern had had the presence of mind to take on agency staff/ contractors last September when RMT guards decided they didn't want to work Saturdays any more they'd be fully trained by now!
How do you propose to keep agency staff's various bits of knowledge up to date and refreshed when they are only expected to be a temporary measure? If they are only used once then not for several months and their knowledge lapses, you have to train them up again. Do you understand how expensive it is to train someone up in full?

Totally unworkable financially. You'll never have a good enough business case for that.
 

scrapy

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As said before you can't take on agency staff to cover striking workers so you could only cover Sundays not Saturdays. The problems on Sundays are mainly driver shortages not guards. Is anyone seriously suggesting temporary/agency drivers trained in a week?
 

Bletchleyite

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As said before you can't take on agency staff to cover striking workers so you could only cover Sundays not Saturdays. The problems on Sundays are mainly driver shortages not guards. Is anyone seriously suggesting temporary/agency drivers trained in a week?

The best way to solve that is that from now on all new staff have Sunday in the working week (and will work every Sunday for the foreseeable future). Over time this will filter through to it just being part of the roster.

But that has nothing at all to do with the strike.
 

Eccles1983

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And once again different contracts mean a headache further down the line.

It makes rostering a lottery.

Why not offer a decent enough proposal and turn all contracts 7 day. Not cheap but decisively.
 
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How do you propose to keep agency staff's various bits of knowledge up to date and refreshed when they are only expected to be a temporary measure? If they are only used once then not for several months and their knowledge lapses, you have to train them up again. Do you understand how expensive it is to train someone up in full?

The thing about agency staff is it's a two way street. The employer can get rid of them at a moment's notice if they are no longer needed, but also the agency worker can leave with a moment's notice if they decide they have had enough. Rumour has it that when this dispute started, enough PUGs were trained to run a 12 hour service on the whole Northern network on strike days. But as things have progressed, some have decided enough is enough (as is their right) and rather than train more PUGs, the routes they were trained for have lost their Saturday service.

Training someone with no operational railway experience would require at least two weeks intense classroom training including PTS, then if they passed that another week of practical route and traction experience. More if they were doing more than one route or one type of traction. Anything less and the ORR wouldn't approve it and any wise manager would be dubious about signing someone off as competent then ending up in court if the person they signed off caused a major operational incident.
 

CaptainHaddock

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The best way to solve that is that from now on all new staff have Sunday in the working week (and will work every Sunday for the foreseeable future). Over time this will filter through to it just being part of the roster.

But that has nothing at all to do with the strike.

Well it does insofar as that the only reason the guards can afford to keep striking every saturday is because they can make up the lost wages by working overtime on Sundays. Cut off that source of income and they won't be able to afford to strike so frequently.
 

Llanigraham

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The best way to solve that is that from now on all new staff have Sunday in the working week (and will work every Sunday for the foreseeable future). Over time this will filter through to it just being part of the roster.

But that has nothing at all to do with the strike.
But has been shown in other threads, the T O Cs themselves don't want to do that.
 

DarloRich

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Well it does insofar as that the only reason the guards can afford to keep striking every saturday is because they can make up the lost wages by working overtime on Sundays. Cut off that source of income and they won't be able to afford to strike so frequently.

but without changing the rostering structure that will simply lead to a complete service failure. However i suspect you know this.
 

Llama

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The thing about agency staff is it's a two way street. The employer can get rid of them at a moment's notice if they are no longer needed, but also the agency worker can leave with a moment's notice if they decide they have had enough. Rumour has it that when this dispute started, enough PUGs were trained to run a 12 hour service on the whole Northern network on strike days. But as things have progressed, some have decided enough is enough (as is their right) and rather than train more PUGs, the routes they were trained for have lost their Saturday service.

Training someone with no operational railway experience would require at least two weeks intense classroom training including PTS, then if they passed that another week of practical route and traction experience. More if they were doing more than one route or one type of traction. Anything less and the ORR wouldn't approve it and any wise manager would be dubious about signing someone off as competent then ending up in court if the person they signed off caused a major operational incident.
There is also the fact that Northern were drafting in PUGs from Arrival Trains Wales to run some services on strike days, until the ATW franchise changed to Keolis/Amey and those PUGs were no longer available to Northern.

And yes, the ORR have already been to visit and inspect the competency arrangements and certification of those staff working as PUGs.
 

Carlisle

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Why not offer a decent enough proposal and turn all contracts 7 day. Not cheap but decisively.
It would likely come down to what productivity and flexibility improvements the unions were willing to consider offering in return
 

ainsworth74

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Totally unworkable financially. You'll never have a good enough business case for that.

Perhaps the most telling thing is that if it was workable, someone would have done it by. The fact that they haven't should be telling...
 

Mogster

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I’ve noticed we have a guard working the doors and a guard doing revenue only on the morning peak Southport - Alderley Edge services. Is this a new thing?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Well it does insofar as that the only reason the guards can afford to keep striking every saturday is because they can make up the lost wages by working overtime on Sundays. Cut off that source of income and they won't be able to afford to strike so frequently.

This has been debunked previously but obviously needs repeating. The number of turns available on Sundays is but a fraction of the number of turns not being worked on Saturdays. There is no way for all guards to keep making up their pay just by working every Sunday available. In other words, despite what some want to believe, guards are most definitely taking a financial hit by sustaining the action for so long. And yet support for the action remains solid.

I’ve noticed we have a guard working the doors and a guard doing revenue only on the morning peak Southport - Alderley Edge services. Is this a new thing?

No it's not. The sheer volume of passengers needing tickets means that even if the service was already DOO it would need two members of staff on board just selling tickets. The alternative is long queues at the barriers at the main alighting stations. This is very much the case on Mondays and Tuesdays when there are many weekly seasons being renewed, on other days a single ticket seller allows the guard to keep to time.
 

Starmill

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I’ve noticed we have a guard working the doors and a guard doing revenue only on the morning peak Southport - Alderley Edge services. Is this a new thing?
No, Northern have had ticket examiners deployed on this route since way before the current franchise began.
 

Mogster

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No, Northern have had ticket examiners deployed on this route since way before the current franchise began.

OK. We just seem to be seeing them much more often, maybe staff availability has been a problem. As a passenger I’ve noticed long periods without a ticket check previously.

They do seem to sell a lot of tickets.
 

whhistle

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Knowing people who have gone through the ATW guard's course at Machynlleth, very incorrect!
Maybe ATW's method is different.
Remember, we live in the world of private companies these days.
While many aspects of the train world have to follow certain rules, companies add their (very different) ones on top.

It's also worth noting that some PUGs (probably) have roles that aren't too taxing - some people call it a cushy job! Others may have their responsibilities dumped on other "managers". In some companies, there seems to be more "managers" than front line staff.
 
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