Dispatching a train in the dark under DOO

mrbouffant · 23 Jan 2019

Today I was on an early Thameslink train from East Grinstead to London Bridge. At Upper Warlingham the electricity supply to the station had failed so there was no lighting. Being still dark, the platform was very murky. We sat there for some time until the driver announced he could not dispatch the train in the dark and would have to contact Thameslink control. After some delay he announced he would have to perform a "manual dispatch". This saw him locking the doors off and then running the full length of the 12 car set (without a torch!) to ensure nobody was trapped. Despite running to time up until that point, we eventually departed 15 minutes late.

Questions arising from this are:

- Shouldn't the driver know what to do in such a situation without having to contact control?

- With all the sensors and telemetry available on the class 700s, why wouldn't "all doors closed and locked" be sufficient feedback to the driver to allow dispatch, rather than have him run up and down the platform?

Suffice to say the grizzled commuters onboard were somewhat non-plussed by the delay, but I can't recall anything like this ever happened in my 15+ years of commuting.

Any thoughts or opinions?

RailUK Forums

ComUtoR · 23 Jan 2019

mrbouffant said:
Questions arising from this are:

- Shouldn't the driver know what to do in such a situation without having to contact control?

Part of the procedure is to contact control. The Driver knows what to do but must still follow procedures.

- With all the sensors and telemetry available on the class 700s, why wouldn't "all doors closed and locked" be sufficient feedback to the driver to allow dispatch, rather than have him run up and down the platform?

As evidenced by recent trap and drag incidents; you cannot assume that interlock or the BIL (orange lights on the side of each coach) lights extinguishing are sufficient and therefore must confirm that nobody is trapped using the Train Safety Check. If this cannot be done by the HMI (internal CCTV) then it must be done by a physical check.

Suffice to say the grizzled commuters onboard were somewhat non-plussed by the delay, but I can't recall anything like this ever happened in my 15+ years of commuting.

Happens all the time.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jan 2019

ComUtoR said:
As evidenced by recent trap and drag incidents; you cannot assume that interlock or the BIL (orange lights on the side of each coach) lights extinguishing are sufficient and therefore must confirm that nobody is trapped using the Train Safety Check. If this cannot be done by the HMI (internal CCTV) then it must be done by a physical check.

Is walking the length of the train mandatory? If the same train was guard dispatched, that would not be required (unless the guard felt he could not see properly).

ComUtoR · 23 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Is walking the length of the train mandatory?

It will depend entirely on the TOCs procedures. Personally I would walk the entire length of the train, especially if it was dark. You need to confirm that nothing is trapped in the doors. Things can get trapped from the inside too; including fingers. My TOC has a maximum length you can look back but in this case, dispatch is degraded so a full check is the most sensible course of action.

If the same train was guard dispatched, that would not be required (unless the guard felt he could not see properly).

I'm not a Guard so I'll leave it to them to comment. However, the same standards apply. Whoever is dispatching must carry out the Train Safety Check and ensure nothing is trapped.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...m-01-december-2018.172427/page-2#post-3694994

Post #33 has a screen shot of the rulebook.

_toommm_ · 23 Jan 2019

mrbouffant said:
With all the sensors and telemetry available on the class 700s, why wouldn't "all doors closed and locked" be sufficient feedback to the driver to allow dispatch, rather than have him run up and down the platform?

Just because the interlock circuit is complete, does not mean it is safe to depart. It could be something small like a coat trapped, up to something like a dog lead trapped or a hand trapped meaning someone or something is dragged along the platform.

Bletchleyite said:
Is walking the length of the train mandatory? If the same train was guard dispatched, that would not be required (unless the guard felt he could not see properly

I suspect it may be up to the driver/guard discretion, but I know that if I was to ever be in that position I'd want to make sure it was safe to depart by double checking and delaying the train, then being presumptuous and potentially cocking something up badly.

mrbouffant · 23 Jan 2019

Don't class 700s have "sensitive edge" technology to deal with trapped objects? I can understand how an interlock can be achieved even with something stuck in, but I had thought this was mitigated by the use of "sensitive edge" technology.

_toommm_ · 23 Jan 2019

mrbouffant said:
Don't class 700s have "sensitive edge" technology to deal with trapped objects? I can understand how an interlock can be achieved even with something stuck in, but I had thought this was mitigated by the use of "sensitive edge" technology.

It's still loosely based off the same technology, and depending on how small or thin the trapped item is, it may still be undetectable...

ComUtoR · 23 Jan 2019

mrbouffant said:
Don't class 700s have "sensitive edge" technology to deal with trapped objects? I can understand how an interlock can be achieved even with something stuck in, but I had thought this was mitigated by the use of "sensitive edge" technology.

It is this trail of thought that leads to a trap and drag. You can still get objects trapped, there could be a fault, and it is required by the rulebook to check. Technology is good at mitigation but not prevention. It was the reliance on technology that has led to incidents so there had to be something put in place to prevent an incident taking place.

Whilst we constantly get lambasted about being Luddites, technology just isn't that reliable.

Essan · 23 Jan 2019

Should a station which has no lighting be open to the public?

I know that never used to be an issue, but I'm surprised it's permitted these days. What if someone tripped in the dark ...... ?

ComUtoR · 23 Jan 2019

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...s-after-trapped-passenger-is-dragged-by-train

The Class 350 train involved in the accident—a Siemens Desiro EMU—was fitted with a door system designed with sensitive edges which detect the presence of trapped objects.

But the RAIB has previously found that similar door systems can be detected as closed and locked even with an object trapped between the doors. The same had happened in Newcastle in 2014, when another Desiro train fitted with the same sensitive-door design failed to detect a wrist.

Following the Newcastle incident, RAIB issued urgent safety advice to Desiro fleet operators asking them to consider the need for extra operational and technical measures to manage this risk. The inspectorate also recommended that Siemens redesign the doors in future vehicles supplied to the UK.

Updated training programmes and risk assessment measures have been undertaken by West Midlands Trains since the Newcastle incident. But at Bushey, where the self-dispatch method was in use, there was a misunderstanding of proper safety procedures.

The conductor stated that he believed the extinguished train-body side lights and the illuminated interlock light in his cab showed that no-one was trapped in the doors, but records held by the TOC show that he had attended safety briefings where staff learned never to assume that extinguished lights means people can’t still be caught in the door.

“This accident demonstrates the importance of staff responsible for the dispatch of trains conducting a thorough final safety check after the passenger doors have closed,” the RAIB said. “They should always remember that in certain circumstances it is possible for the door control system to detect the doors as closed when someone is trapped in them.”

mrbouffant · 23 Jan 2019

Really interesting posts. Thanks all.

CaptainHaddock · 23 Jan 2019

Essan said:
Should a station which has no lighting be open to the public?

I know that never used to be an issue, but I'm surprised it's permitted these days. What if someone tripped in the dark ...... ?

Last year York station was evacuated due to a power cut after dark.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/york-station-evacuated-due-to-power-cut-03-12.174465/

ComUtoR · 23 Jan 2019

https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/11/dog-...n-train-door-dragging-it-into-tunnel-7934413/

A disabled pensioner has described how her dog’s lead became trapped in a train’s doors, dragging him along the platform and to his death inside a tunnel.

700 unit. Dog lead caught in a door.

southerner2174 · 23 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Is walking the length of the train mandatory? If the same train was guard dispatched, that would not be required (unless the guard felt he could not see properly).

Upper Warlingham station is on a curve so not clear line of sight from the front to the rear of the train

tsr · 23 Jan 2019

Upper Warlingham was indeed closed after this train left, and reopened shortly afterwards, when daylight became sufficient.

There’s no easy way out of this one at UWL - once you open the doors, you’ve got to dispatch the train, and unfortunately this is one of the worst platforms for visibility on a 12 coach service, with a steep curve. So the driver would have no choice but to walk down.

DOO bodyside cameras do have a minimum light level required, which is why station lighting upgrades are regularly required before bodyside cameras are used, and subsequent trains can’t call if the station has been reported to be in darkness. For the avoidance of doubt, it would not be much easier for a guard at this location, as they too would have to walk up and down to see the train clearly in the dark (many of the stations in this area have limited ambient lighting), although it wouldn’t take so long.

bengley · 23 Jan 2019

Personally if I was working DOO and about to stop at a station where I saw the lights weren't on, I'd stop short of the station and contact the signaller there to get permission to pass through the station without stopping. Problem solved.

LowLevel · 23 Jan 2019

TOCs have a list of degraded station working procedures including lighting failures. Every station is assessed individually. All of our trains are guard worked and if I recall correctly the only one where you can't call without lighting is Elton and Orston, because of the long station approach road, minimal service and risk of someone not being found if they have an accident in the dark. Some stations require the guard to escort passengers out, others just to make announcements to take extra care.

DOO services do complicate things somewhat especially with cameras as others have said.

Aictos · 23 Jan 2019

bengley said:
Personally if I was working DOO and about to stop at a station where I saw the lights weren't on, I'd stop short of the station and contact the signaller there to get permission to pass through the station without stopping. Problem solved.

Only for another problem to crop up if you had passengers waiting for that train there or on that train who would now be overcarried.

Trains shouldn't just miss stops due to lighting issues, some TOCs will instruct their traincrew to stay in the platform a extra minute to provide some form of lighting from the train.

Apart from that, usually the call goes out to the nearest manned station for portable emergency lights to be sent with a member of staff to that station after which trains call as usual.

theageofthetra · 23 Jan 2019

bengley said:
Personally if I was working DOO and about to stop at a station where I saw the lights weren't on, I'd stop short of the station and contact the signaller there to get permission to pass through the station without stopping. Problem solved.

Exactly what I would have done.

Aictos · 23 Jan 2019

theageofthetra said:
Exactly what I would have done.

You forget the signaller cannot authorise a train not to call as that sits purely with that TOCs control and its their call what happens next.

theageofthetra · 23 Jan 2019

tsr said:
Upper Warlingham was indeed closed after this train left, and reopened shortly afterwards, when daylight became sufficient.

There’s no easy way out of this one at UWL - once you open the doors, you’ve got to dispatch the train, and unfortunately this is one of the worst platforms for visibility on a 12 coach service, with a steep curve. So the driver would have no choice but to walk down.

DOO bodyside cameras do have a minimum light level required, which is why station lighting upgrades are regularly required before bodyside cameras are used, and subsequent trains can’t call if the station has been reported to be in darkness. For the avoidance of doubt, it would not be much easier for a guard at this location, as they too would have to walk up and down to see the train clearly in the dark (many of the stations in this area have limited ambient lighting), although it wouldn’t take so long.

On this type of traction could the driver have checked if the in cab monitors gave an acceptable view before he put the door release up? I've had a similar one where there was enough light from adjacent streetlights and the train lights to see quite clearly on the platform monitors plus it was a reasonably straight platform.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jan 2019

Speaking more widely, I'm surprised DOO cameras don't use infra-red technology like CCTV commonly does for this purpose, then IR lights could be provided alongside the camera? It'd then be potentially safe to dispatch DOO in the pitch black.

theageofthetra · 23 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
You forget the signaller cannot authorise a train not to call as that sits purely with that TOCs control and its their call what happens next.

I'd have rung control from GSMR.

ComUtoR · 23 Jan 2019

theageofthetra said:
On this type of traction could the driver have checked if the in cab monitors gave an acceptable view before he put the door release up?

It's possible but not really sensible. You would of had to stop in the platform, check the monitors, call control to report the lights out and then... Someone will just egress and potentially egress as the train pulls out the station.

Bletchleyite said:
Speaking more widely, I'm surprised DOO cameras don't use infra-red technology like CCTV commonly does for this purpose, then IR lights could be provided alongside the camera? It'd then be potentially safe to dispatch DOO in the pitch black.

Will it pick up a scarf of a bag strap ? would it pick up a hand trapped in the doors from the inside ? There is a research brief on SPARK with a video of such technology and tbh looks worse in terms of dispatch.

Aictos · 23 Jan 2019

theageofthetra said:
I'd have rung control from GSMR.

However the OP of the post you agreed with stated they would ask the signaller for permission not to call which is wrong as the only person able to make that call is control like I rightly said.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jan 2019

ComUtoR said:
Will it pick up a scarf of a bag strap ? would it pick up a hand trapped in the doors from the inside ? There is a research brief on SPARK with a video of such technology and tbh looks worse in terms of dispatch.

I'm not referring to infra-read beam breaking, I'm referring to infra-red background lighting (and IR-sensitive cameras) as most outdoor CCTV installations now seem to use. You can identify these as they have the "floodlight" style installations next to them that have an LED panel with a faint red glow.

It's monochrome, but the image quality seems quite good on good quality cameras.

Muzer · 23 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I'm not referring to infra-read beam breaking, I'm referring to infra-red background lighting (and IR-sensitive cameras) as most outdoor CCTV installations now seem to use. You can identify these as they have the "floodlight" style installations next to them that have an LED panel with a faint red glow.

It's monochrome, but the image quality seems quite good on good quality cameras.

...but in this case the lights were broken. What's the point in having lights that people can't see, which are equally likely to fail as the lights that people can see?

DelW · 23 Jan 2019

One thing that surprises me about the scenario described is that the driver didn't have a torch, I'd have expected train crew always to carry the modern equivalent of a Bardic lamp. I think that if I was doing that job in darkness I'd want a good torch with me, even if I had to provide it myself. I always keep a torch (with flashing amber and red options too) in my car, for similar reasons.

Bletchleyite · 23 Jan 2019

Muzer said:
...but in this case the lights were broken. What's the point in having lights that people can't see, which are equally likely to fail as the lights that people can see?

Having lights that are adequate for dispatch on the train would prevent dispatch issues in places where the station lighting was not adequate for dispatch but was adequate for the station to be in use.

Carlisle · 23 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Speaking more widely, I'm surprised DOO cameras don't use infra-red technology like CCTV commonly does for this purpose, then IR lights could be provided alongside the camera? It'd then be potentially safe to dispatch DOO in the pitch black.

When BR initially converted most of the London suburban lines to DOO in the early 90s it was conditional on, (amongst other things) engineers being available on call to attend station lighting failures in around an hour, or less, not sure what the rules are now.

Dispatching a train in the dark under DOO

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