Dispatching a train in the dark under DOO

Aictos · 24 Jan 2019

bengley said:
The signaller talks to the TOC's control. A signaller wouldn't authorise anything until they've spoken to control. I would still speak to the signaller in this situation even if I spoke to control too, so why not cut out the need to speak to two people myself by just going through the signaller?

You miss the point, the signaller would still have to ask control for direction so it makes little difference if you call your control or you waited for the signaller to get back to you.

You're not saving anything at all.

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Antman · 24 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
Passengers shouldn't be using stations which are in total darkness. If the station has no lighting at all, the operator of the station should endeavour to restore it as soon as possible. If this cannot be done e.g. because there's a widespread power cut, they should provide temporary lighting. In the time that it takes to get this into place (or possibly until the sunrise, if the station isn't all undercover) there probably will be some trains cancelled. There will be disruption whatever happens. If trains have to be cancelled for an extended period of time, alternative transport should be provided. It seems that the disruption was that great on this occasion.

So what should the passenger do? Not to mention any passengers wanting to get off at that station if the next station is miles away? Unless a replacement bus service is provided they don't have much choice in the matter.

I've been on trains that have stopped at unlit stations before, there was a PA announcement asking people to take care if alighting there. I'd say the driver at Upper Warlingham did the right thing.

Starmill · 24 Jan 2019

If you drop someoe off at an unlit station and they trip on the stairs and seriously injure themselves, it's hello to humungous personal injury claim. I myself have had an accident at a station as a result of a wet platform when all of the station lighting had gone out. The lights were in a timer and the train had run half an hour late, thus arriving after they had gone off. I reported the accident and filled in an accident form, and the train company said they'd changed their timer on the lighting so it would remain on for longer after the last train times to cover for delays. I wasn't injured badly, just cuts and bruises, but completing the accident form focuses minds. Could easily have filed a personal injury claim if I'd been hurt more seriously or I were dishonest and exaggerated the impact it had. The train company has a responsibility to run a safe service and dropping you off at a station in total darkness is likely to be inconsistent with that responsibility in certain circumstances.

Bletchleyite · 24 Jan 2019

I've gone flying at Bletchley station due to ice before, which would have happened whether it was dark or not. Given that almost everyone's phone has a torch on it these days, I think stations are open in situations which are far higher risk.

Dieseldriver · 24 Jan 2019

Just a point I'd like to make. When I've dealt with issues resulting in my train being delayed whilst I am in full view of passengers,

Class 403 said:
You miss the point, the signaller would still have to ask control for direction so it makes little difference if you call your control or you waited for the signaller to get back to you.

You're not saving anything at all.

Apart from anything else, the rulebook requirement is to inform the Signaller first about issues such as this as it will impede the progress of the service. This is why, if there is a fault preventing a train from moving, the very first step is to call the Signaller and keep them informed, they are the ones trying to juggle the service and deal with line blockages etc.

Antman · 24 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
If you drop someoe off at an unlit station and they trip on the stairs and seriously injure themselves, it's hello to humungous personal injury claim. I myself have had an accident at a station as a result of a wet platform when all of the station lighting had gone out. The lights were in a timer and the train had run half an hour late, thus arriving after they had gone off. I reported the accident and filled in an accident form, and the train company said they'd changed their timer on the lighting so it would remain on for longer after the last train times to cover for delays. I wasn't injured badly, just cuts and bruises, but completing the accident form focuses minds. Could easily have filed a personal injury claim if I'd been hurt more seriously or I were dishonest and exaggerated the impact it had. The train company has a responsibility to run a safe service and dropping you off at a station in total darkness is likely to be inconsistent with that responsibility in certain circumstances.

Not if the guard has already advised passengers that the station is unlit. In any case it's not likely to be pitch black unless it's in the middle of nowhere.

Starmill · 24 Jan 2019

Jack15001 said:
Not if the guard has already advised passengers that the station is unlit. In any case it's not likely to be pitch black unless it's in the middle of nowhere.

It's already been pointed out again and again that there was no guard on the train at Upper Warlingham and the station is relatively remote from other light sources, including ambient urban light. You can complain about it all you like but the most likely outcome from a driver operated train being booked to call at a totally unlit station in darkness is that the call will be cancelled by the controllers once the issue becomes known. There is very little to add.

jon0844 · 24 Jan 2019

You can't have people getting off a train in darkness. Not everyone has a phone/torch (or indeed a phone torch) and from a safety point of view, skip the station and then put people in a taxi back (or bus if there are that many people). While a train gives off a reasonable amount of light, what happens when it pulls out? What if someone trips as mentioned, or even slips and falls on the line?

Of course it would be an inconvenience to passengers but safety first. If the wires came down or there was a signalling fault, you'd accept things. A lack of lighting is equally serious in my opinion.

Antman · 24 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
It's already been pointed out again and again that there was no guard on the train at Upper Warlingham and the station is relatively remote from other light sources, including ambient urban light. You can complain about it all you like but the most likely outcome from a driver operated train being booked to call at a totally unlit station in darkness is that the call will be cancelled by the controllers once the issue becomes known. There is very little to add.

I know there was no guard on the train at Upper Warlingham but the driver could have made the appropriate announcement.

What you don't seem to grasp is that not letting passengers off and taking them to the next station some distance away and dumping them there is putting them in far greater danger.

jon0844 · 24 Jan 2019

Jack15001 said:
What you don't seem to grasp is that not letting passengers off and taking them to the next station some distance away and dumping them there is putting them in far greater danger.

How exactly? A danger of what? Inconvenience, yes, but danger?

Antman · 24 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
You can't have people getting off a train in darkness. Not everyone has a phone/torch (or indeed a phone torch) and from a safety point of view, skip the station and then put people in a taxi back (or bus if there are that many people). While a train gives off a reasonable amount of light, what happens when it pulls out? What if someone trips as mentioned, or even slips and falls on the line?

Of course it would be an inconvenience to passengers but safety first. If the wires came down or there was a signalling fault, you'd accept things. A lack of lighting is equally serious in my opinion.

We are talking about adults who are generally capable of making their own decision.

How about giving them the option, you can get off at the unlit station and the train will wait until everyone is off the platform thus providing some light or if you don't want to 'risk' that we'll take you to the next station free of charge where there will (hopefully) be taxis to bring you back to the unlit station. I know which option I'd go for. And what about any passengers waiting at the unlit station? Taxis for them as well? Quite where you'd get all these taxis from to a remote location late at night is another matter.

jon0844 · 24 Jan 2019

And if someone doesn't leave the station promptly? The train waits all night? The driver gets out and forces them away in the dark?

Are you not stopping to use any common sense and consider how crazy an idea it is to allow passengers to make a split decision on whether to do something, not necessarily knowing the full extent of the situation? What if the lighting is out in the whole area? Even if they get off the platform - then what?

It's not as if station lighting fails that often, but when it does it IS a serious matter. Hence why trains will usually not call until they're back on. People at the station are of course a problem, but I am sure they'll soon work out that a dark station and platform isn't a safe environment and either leave, or make a call/Tweet or whatever to get information.

Once someone reports the lighting out, you'd assume that emergency lighting would be getting transported there and Network Rail or a contractor would be en route to fix the lighting. Not just leaving it dark for the rest of the evening/night.

RichardKing · 24 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
You miss the point, the signaller would still have to ask control for direction so it makes little difference if you call your control or you waited for the signaller to get back to you.

You're not saving anything at all.

Is the Driver able to contact their Control via GSM-R? I know they're able to contact the signaller, speak to anyone who uses the PassCom and communicate with the Guard/OBS in the back cab, but I'm unaware if there's a way of directly contacting the Control room without first speaking to the signaller?

Antman · 24 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
And if someone doesn't leave the station promptly? The train waits all night? The driver gets out and forces them away in the dark?

Are you not stopping to use any common sense and consider how crazy an idea it is to allow passengers to make a split decision on whether to do something, not necessarily knowing the full extent of the situation? What if the lighting is out in the whole area? Even if they get off the platform - then what?

It's not as if station lighting fails that often, but when it does it IS a serious matter. Hence why trains will usually not call until they're back on. People at the station are of course a problem, but I am sure they'll soon work out that a dark station and platform isn't a safe environment and either leave, or make a call/Tweet or whatever to get information.

Once someone reports the lighting out, you'd assume that emergency lighting would be getting transported there and Network Rail or a contractor would be en route to fix the lighting. Not just leaving it dark for the rest of the evening/night.

The train could obviously wait for a few minutes to allow a reasonable time for people to vacate the platform. How on earth you think forcing them to travel to the next station miles away and then presumably waiting for a replacement taxi that may or may not turn up is going to be safer for them I really don't know.

Starmill · 24 Jan 2019

Jack15001 said:
What you don't seem to grasp is that not letting passengers off and taking them to the next station some distance away and dumping them there is putting them in far greater danger.

The train operator is obliged to organise replacement transport if trains can't run, and also obliged to get people to their destination according to the ticket they bought. To do as you describe would leave the train operator in breach of the NRCoT.

I am sure they take this responsibility seriously... (!)

Antman · 24 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
The train operator is obliged to organise replacement transport if trains can't run, and also obliged to get people to their destination according to the ticket they bought. To do as you describe would leave the train operator in breach of the NRCoT.

And if the TOC can't get this replacement transport to a remote location late at night at short notice? What do passengers do, stand in the cold and wait?

ComUtoR · 24 Jan 2019

RichardKing said:
Is the Driver able to contact their Control via GSM-R?

100% yes. The advent of GSMR has changed on train communication forever. There are a lot of stored numbers that can be used. The GSMR is capable of so much more than what is allowed. A lot of its functionality is blocked.

philthetube · 24 Jan 2019

I am sure everyone who works on the railway will agree with this statement,

Regardles of what you think of the drivers actions, and I agree with them.

You have to cover your Botty

and follow the rule book in this sort of situation.

Only if something really desperate happens should you consider going off plan when there are any safety issues.

theageofthetra · 24 Jan 2019

RichardKing said:
Is the Driver able to contact their Control via GSM-R? I know they're able to contact the signaller, speak to anyone who uses the PassCom and communicate with the Guard/OBS in the back cab, but I'm unaware if there's a way of directly contacting the Control room without first speaking to the signaller?

Our Control, Maintenance plus some other numbers are on the phone book option on GSMR.

Aictos · 24 Jan 2019

Dieseldriver said:
Just a point I'd like to make. When I've dealt with issues resulting in my train being delayed whilst I am in full view of passengers,

Apart from anything else, the rulebook requirement is to inform the Signaller first about issues such as this as it will impede the progress of the service. This is why, if there is a fault preventing a train from moving, the very first step is to call the Signaller and keep them informed, they are the ones trying to juggle the service and deal with line blockages etc.

I know this, which is why I was patiently trying to explain that the signaller doesn't have immediate authority for trains not to call if the lighting is faulty they still need to ensure that TOCs control is aware and come to a joint decision on what to do next.

Starmill · 24 Jan 2019

Jack15001 said:
And if the TOC can't get this replacement transport to a remote location late at night at short notice? What do passengers do, stand in the cold and wait?

Same thing as if the train is cancelled due to a shortage of train crew, a closure of the line due to a rail defect or a broken down train.

RichardKing · 24 Jan 2019

ComUtoR said:
100% yes. The advent of GSMR has changed on train communication forever. There are a lot of stored numbers that can be used. The GSMR is capable of so much more than what is allowed. A lot of its functionality is blocked.

theageofthetra said:
Our Control, Maintenance plus some other numbers are on the phone book option on GSMR.

Thanks for confirming.

Antman · 24 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
Same thing as if the train is cancelled due to a shortage of train crew, a closure of the line due to a rail defect or a broken down train.

It's not quite the same, you don't normally find yourself dumped at a station you didn't intend to go to.

jon0844 · 24 Jan 2019

Jack15001 said:
It's not quite the same, you don't normally find yourself dumped at a station you didn't intend to go to.

You would if the train had to terminate early or possibly divert on a different route. Nobody would be left stranded, but there might be a wait just as there is during other disruption.

Muzer · 24 Jan 2019

ComUtoR said:
100% yes. The advent of GSMR has changed on train communication forever. There are a lot of stored numbers that can be used. The GSMR is capable of so much more than what is allowed. A lot of its functionality is blocked.

It's apparently caused some friction recently among signallers (eg see the RAIB report in the Peckham Rye detrainment safety incident) as more drivers are more likely nowadays to call control before calling the signaller, leaving the signaller tearing their hair out wondering why the train isn't moving and the driver isn't calling. This is despite the rulebook requirement to contact the signaller first...

Eccles1983 · 24 Jan 2019

It's always signaller first. They are the first line of defence, and generally have better ideas than control.

Dieseldriver · 24 Jan 2019

Muzer said:
It's apparently caused some friction recently among signallers (eg see the RAIB report in the Peckham Rye detrainment safety incident) as more drivers are more likely nowadays to call control before calling the signaller, leaving the signaller tearing their hair out wondering why the train isn't moving and the driver isn't calling. This is despite the rulebook requirement to contact the signaller first...

There is no excuse for Drivers to not contact the Signaller first. As you say it is a rule book requirement which all Drivers should be conversant with.

Islineclear3_1 · 24 Jan 2019

If I was a DOO driver: I would rather walk down a 12-carriage train and satisfy myself properly that nothing is trapped in the doors

If I was a passenger on that train: I would rather the train be delayed by 15min so that the driver can satisfy himself that all safety checks have been done and it is safe to drive away

Shouting "Hello!" down the train...that OP cannot be serious...!?

grid56126 · 24 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
Only for another problem to crop up if you had passengers waiting for that train there or on that train who would now be overcarried.

Trains shouldn't just miss stops due to lighting issues, some TOCs will instruct their traincrew to stay in the platform a extra minute to provide some form of lighting from the train.

Apart from that, usually the call goes out to the nearest manned station for portable emergency lights to be sent with a member of staff to that station after which trains call as usual.

With a 3 car 313 on a stopper with a conductor on a Seaford working - absolutely - dwell as much time as is needed to allow people safely off the platform using the train lights and most people will be happy and reasonably safe.

Any train relying on using D.O.O. in cab images and the can of worms you open is a catering size can. As has been touched on, the lighting at stations where on board cameras are used is set at quite stringently applied levels so degraded despatch will almost certainly consist of a walk back at the very least.

With a 12 car and an OBS not despatch qualified, that's a lot of dwell time on any route with a busy service to have a significant impact.

Some locations with mirrors and platform monitors muddy these instructions even further, not least of course because a power failure may shut off platform mounted monitors. Ambient light and local knowledge plays a huge part and most importantly, Safety has always been at the back of my mind in the literally hundreds of times I have had to "make a shout" about these scenarios.

That problem rests on others shoulders these days.

bengley · 25 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
I know this, which is why I was patiently trying to explain that the signaller doesn't have immediate authority for trains not to call if the lighting is faulty they still need to ensure that TOCs control is aware and come to a joint decision on what to do next.

From your replies I can only assume you are a driver or someone else who works in the industry.

Thanks for your advice. As a driver myself I will continue to communicate mainly through the signaller for such situations. I do call control for certain things, but for something such as missing a station which can be classified as a safety of the line incident, I prefer to speak to the signaller, who ultimately has overall authority over any train movements.

Dispatching a train in the dark under DOO

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