Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

strimmer · 23 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed. That photo just sums up the beauty of the South of England. Should sell it to the area's tourist board (or for a classic railway poster!)

Thanks guys, you've given me an idea.

RailUK Forums

bastien · 23 Jan 2019

swt_passenger said:
The aim of the refurb is that to the normal passenger they will be almost the same as 444s, hence the first class area being moved to one end car, reduced in length and made 2+2. They'll be nothing like their as new condition, and significantly changed compared to their Gat Ex time as well.

That's ironic as they used to have a short 2+2 first class area in an end coach.

zn1 · 24 Jan 2019

consider the 5wes are 30 years old this year, ...if there is a long term (10 years) for the dear old 442, the former MBLS could be converted in to seating, it would require some cash, some reskinning etc, window installation etc ..so is not a go go at the moment ..(the brake vans on the VEPS were converted by NSE at eastleigh during their c1).

Bletchleyite · 24 Jan 2019

zn1 said:
consider the 5wes are 30 years old this year, ...if there is a long term (10 years) for the dear old 442, the former MBLS could be converted in to seating, it would require some cash, some reskinning etc, window installation etc ..so is not a go go at the moment ..(the brake vans on the VEPS were converted by NSE at eastleigh during their c1).

I doubt there will be a proper long-term life for them, really - they are more filling in until something else becomes available.

zn1 · 24 Jan 2019

shame as they are a damned good squadron, built for one route, with augmenting the pompeys , if they were to return to the old "nseintercity" weymouth as well as the pompey runs they would much better utilised, getting better value per mile per unit etc...

Bletchleyite · 24 Jan 2019

zn1 said:
shame as they are a damned good squadron, built for one route, with augmenting the pompeys , if they were to return to the old "nseintercity" weymouth as well as the pompey runs they would much better utilised, getting better value per mile per unit etc...

The Class 444 is better for these runs - more reliable running alone, easier to couple/uncouple, more modern but otherwise very much from the same "family".

alastair · 24 Jan 2019

BBC South local TV news just reporting that refurbishment proving "far more difficult than originally planned" due to "extensive corrosion, including some cab floors rusted right through". End Feb for first earliest return to service.

No idea whether this is accurate, but Paul Clifton, the reporter is usually fairly reliable.

pompeyfan · 24 Jan 2019

He also said they’re the oldest trains in the south by far, which is incorrect as the 313s hold that title, and even then the 150s that come to town are still older than the 442s.

43096 · 24 Jan 2019

pompeyfan said:
He also said they’re the oldest trains in the south by far, which is incorrect as the 313s hold that title, and even then the 150s that come to town are still older than the 442s.

They’re not even the oldest units on SWR: the 455s are a few years older and the Isle of Wight stock blows everything else away in terms of age, being 80-odd years old.

chubs · 24 Jan 2019

Whats the latest on the 6 off lease units?

TEW · 24 Jan 2019

alastair said:
BBC South local TV news just reporting that refurbishment proving "far more difficult than originally planned" due to "extensive corrosion, including some cab floors rusted right through". End Feb for first earliest return to service.

No idea whether this is accurate, but Paul Clifton, the reporter is usually fairly reliable.

Every time there is a new report the date goes back again. End of February seems unlikely to me, we're looking at Spring imo.

swt_passenger · 24 Jan 2019

chubs said:
Whats the latest on the 6 off lease units?

Perhaps they’re in a far worse condition than the 18 that were selected?
I don’t think a watched pot ever boils though, no one has come up with updated news of their future yet, ever since Grand Southern went south...

cjmillsnun · 24 Jan 2019

swt_passenger said:
Perhaps they’re in a far worse condition than the 18 that were selected?
I don’t think a watched pot ever boils though, no one has come up with updated news of their future yet.

Much longer off lease and they'll only be good for this...

30909 · 24 Jan 2019

Paul Clifton also reported his informed source as saying SWR were told that the units had been stored under cover and not outside - really - does none of the informed sources read this thread?

LOL The Irony · 24 Jan 2019

alastair said:
BBC South local TV news just reporting that refurbishment proving "far more difficult than originally planned" due to "extensive corrosion, including some cab floors rusted right through". End Feb for first earliest return to service.

No idea whether this is accurate, but Paul Clifton, the reporter is usually fairly reliable.

What the!? How did nobody fall through?

43096 · 24 Jan 2019

30909 said:
Paul Clifton also reported his informed source as saying SWR were told that the units had been stored under cover and not outside - really - does none of the informed sources read this thread?

Well SWR are utterly thick then. There has been plenty of information and photos of these being stored outside at Ely.

3141 · 24 Jan 2019

43096 said:
Well SWR are utterly thick then. There has been plenty of information and photos of these being stored outside at Ely.

Alternatively, Paul Clifton's "informed source" wasn't informed at all and was just passing on a story he'd heard.

DerekC · 25 Jan 2019

The story I heard on South Today was that the first unit they refurbed as a trial had been stored under cover so they got a misleading picture of the general condition of the fleet. The costs talked about were about £500K per car - is that right?

moley · 25 Jan 2019

DerekC said:
The story I heard on South Today was that the first unit they refurbed as a trial had been stored under cover so they got a misleading picture of the general condition of the fleet. The costs talked about were about £500K per car - is that right?

I thought the project was £10m for 90 carriages. If it’s jumped from £110k to £500k per carriage then the business case isn’t there - that would be £45m for the fleet!

Train Boy · 25 Jan 2019

moley said:
I thought the project was £10m for 90 carriages. If it’s jumped from £110k to £500k per carriage then the business case isn’t there - that would be £45m for the fleet!

Project was branded as £45m from the start.

Monty · 25 Jan 2019

Most of the corrosion repairs were completed ages ago, delays are in part due to the company in charge of the internal refurbishment not being particularly well organised and the modifications to the guards panels and traction interlock system taking longer than normal.

In addition, half the problem is that the leasing companies (who are desperate to find use for older stock) will claim that modifications and commissioning will be simple and straight forward when from a practical point of a view its anything but, doesn't help that the TOCs will often use project managers with little experience in rolling stock either, so will usually take anything the leasing company will say at face value.

On top of that, GTR removed the 442s from the sectional appendix when they were withdrawn from GatEx duties, so NR are basically treating it as if a new train is being introduced to service.

swt_passenger · 25 Jan 2019

Train Boy said:
Project was branded as £45m from the start.

Yes, it’ll be back in the thread somewhere but here’s an Oct 2017 confirmation from Railway Gazette:

South Western Railway has awarded Kiepe Electric UK a contract to undertake a £45m refurbishment of 18 Class 442 electric multiple-units for use on fast London Waterloo – Portsmouth services from December 2018.

Work to be undertaken at Eastleigh to increase the reliability and efficiency of the units will include replacing the life-expired DC traction equipment with an AC package incorporating IGBT technology from Kiepe Electric Düsseldorf. New brake controls from Knorr-Bremse Rail Vehicle Systems will permit regenerative braking, improving the units’ environmental performance and lowering operating costs.
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-awards-class-442-refurbishment-contract.html

The decision of Knorr Bremse and Kiepe Electric to de-merge their train overhaul business won’t have helped with running a smooth project. Splitting up the company was going on around 6 months ago, just when the 442 project should have been well under way...

Lockwood · 25 Jan 2019

Is the big question here "Does Knorr have the k-now how?"?

pigs bay · 25 Jan 2019

From a very reliable source i'm informed the reason for the cab water ingress, is the removal of the front covers, and when units are either washed or just running in heavy rain the water gathers in the front recesses and just lays there, that't why SWT ensured when they had cover problems they were sorted out PDQ, where as southern/Gatex removed just to save time lifting the covers when coupling units and lowering when uncoupled.

Don Steedy · 25 Jan 2019

pigs bay said:
From a very reliable source i'm informed the reason for the cab water ingress, is the removal of the front covers, and when units are either washed or just running in heavy rain the water gathers in the front recesses and just lays there, that't why SWT ensured when they had cover problems they were sorted out PDQ, where as southern/Gatex removed just to save time lifting the covers when coupling units and lowering when uncoupled.

It was mainly outer solebars that had suffered major corrosion, where water had got in behind the GRP of the lower cab sides, which have all been cut off to allow access for inspection and repair as necessary. Also around the crew valves on the cabs side, most likely caused by water running down from the droplights. The corrosion repairs were finished several weeks ago.

jfollows · 28 Jan 2019

pompeyfan said:
From an internal staff magazine

Originally, we planned to retraction and refresh the 18 units, however, the retraction programme will now happen in 2019.

RAIL 871 January 30 - February 12 2019 says "Old DC motors are being replaced with AC equipment..." which is obviously the intention but the article implies that this work is being carried out prior to the service introduction in "at least late February" which appears to be incorrect according to the earlier post I quote.

Monty · 28 Jan 2019

jfollows said:
RAIL 871 January 30 - February 12 2019 says "Old DC motors are being replaced with AC equipment..." which is obviously the intention but the article implies that this work is being carried out prior to the service introduction in "at least late February" which appears to be incorrect according to the earlier post I quote.

The retractioning won't happen until at least some of units have re-entered service with their DC motors. Doubtful we'll see them in service by the end of Feb too.

Emblematic · 28 Jan 2019

Monty said:
The retractioning won't happen until at least some of units have re-entered service with their DC motors. Doubtful we'll see them in service by the end of Feb too.

Modern Railways Jan had a write-up on the refurb. Some of the new traction wiring is being done with the initial refurbishment, but it was decided that the existing motor-generators were not suitable for use with the new traction, so there will be a second phase covering traction, MG replacement with static inverter and further interior work.

Cosmicismsx · 28 Jan 2019

strimmer said:
I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I, for one, am very much looking forward to seeing them back on the Pompey Direct. 442414 was shot between the tunnels approaching Guildford on a diverted Weymouth-Waterloo service on the 7th April 1991.View attachment 58303

I'd pay good money for a decent print of this photo.

strimmer · 28 Jan 2019

Cosmicismsx said:
I'd pay good money for a decent print of this photo.

What have you got in mind?

Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

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