WMTrains livery and station branding

59CosG95 said:

Well, LM had it...GWR still have it, and so do London Overground, Southern, TfW, ScotRail, and possibly Northern.
I suppose it could help passengers who need to make an enquiry about the station when they might not know who operates it.

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There was an attempt to standardise on the SWT style unbranded white on blue, but this seems not to have actually happened.

BucksBones said:

You’d need quite a big sign to fit that on with a decent size typeface!

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By using two lines and not having any other garbage on the sign you could get it reasonably sized. The issue with that LNR design is that the junk on the signs wastes all the space.

I recall my Dad opining this about buses on Oxford Road in Manchester some years ago - the operator's name was very prominent but the destination tiny. It was however an unusual case where this was actually useful to most users.

Bletchleyite said:

There was an attempt to standardise on the SWT style unbranded white on blue, but this seems not to have actually happened.

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EMT seem to have opted for the reverse...
White-on-blue does appear to be the standard over in Europe, I've noticed.

59CosG95 said:

EMT seem to have opted for the reverse...
White-on-blue does appear to be the standard over in Europe, I've noticed.

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As with Network Rail operated stations?

pt_mad said:

As with Network Rail operated stations?

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Possibly. NR probably took their cue from overseas, in all likelihood.

pt_mad said:

LED lighting on that picture of Polesworth too?

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Yes Polesworth has had LED lighting for quite a while. Do have to wonder the cost per passenger of the station.

sd0733 said:

Yes Polesworth has had LED lighting for quite a while. Do have to wonder the cost per passenger of the station.

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I wonder if (with Snow Hill & Wolverhampton exempted) that WMT are using their least-used stations (Stone, Water Orton, Polesworth) as guinea-pigs for the new signage?

59CosG95 said:

I wonder if (with Snow Hill & Wolverhampton exempted) that WMT are using their least-used stations (Stone, Water Orton, Polesworth) as guinea-pigs for the new signage?

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Could be, but point of order - Stone is much better used than it was now. I wonder what effect switching the London service for a Brum one will have.

Northern of course did Denton quite early on...

This should be the standard imho. Rail Alphabet is still unsurpassed for clarity. I’d allow the operators to use their own colours for the narrow stripes at the top and bottom if they really must!!

59CosG95 said:

I wonder if (with Snow Hill & Wolverhampton exempted) that WMT are using their least-used stations (Stone, Water Orton, Polesworth) as guinea-pigs for the new signage?

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Could be, altho I'm sure I saw something in one of the staff news briefs that some/all of the Chase Line had had new signage. Not been that way for ages and we don't work that line so unsure if I'm remembering right.

sd0733 said:

Could be, altho I'm sure I saw something in one of the staff news briefs that some/all of the Chase Line had had new signage. Not been that way for ages and we don't work that line so unsure if I'm remembering right.

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Searching Flickr and I can confirm that (at least) Landywood has the new signs.

Witton, bizarrely, still has LM Green everywhere.

XCTurbostar said:

Since when do passengers need to know that station operator when they arrive at the station? I see the whole logo on signage as being completely unnecessary.

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You’re absolutely correct. Just go back to black rail alphabet lettering on white signs. Station name boards are to tell people where they are and do not need logos, branding or any other piffle.

Telford Central has also been repainted, retaining LM signage (for now).

And speaking of...

Updated list of all the WMR branded trains/stations (as of 29/1/19).
Mods - feel free to pin this to the front of the thread. (btw - thanks for the thread title change!)

Stations
Stour Valley Line (COV-WVH, exc. COV, BHM & BHI)
All WMT-operated stations between Coventry (exc.) & Wolverhampton (inc.) are in WMR orange & grey, with Network WM or LM signage.
N.B. Wolverhampton also has WMR signs/signage.

Cross-City Line (LTV-BMV/RDC, exc. BHM)
>Lichfield Trent Valley: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Lichfield City: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Shenstone: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Blake Street: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Butlers Lane: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Four Oaks: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Sutton Coldfield: Network WM (Olympic gold) signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Wylde Green: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Chester Road: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Erdington: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Gravelly Hill: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Aston: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Duddeston: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Five Ways: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>University: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Selly Oak: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Bournville: Network WM signs, Purple "Cadbury" lampposts
>Kings Norton: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Northfield: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Longbridge: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Barnt Green: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Alvechurch: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Redditch: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Bromsgrove: non-standard signs, blue/yellow lampposts

Snow Hill Lines (Dorridge/Stratford-u-A - Ledbury via Snow Hill & Worcester)
With the exception of Stratford-upon-Avon Parkway, all WMT-operated stations from Stratford-upon-Avon to Earlswood have LM Signs with old-style GWR lampposts; all stations from Wythall to Spring Road have Network WM Signs and the same lampposts.
>Stratford-upon-Avon Parkway: LM signs, orange/grey lampposts
>The Lakes: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Widney Manor: Network WM signs, orange/grey lampposts plus other WMR features
>Olton: WMR signs/signage, orange/grey lampposts (updated as of 19/2/19)
>Acocks Green: Network WM signs, orange/grey lampposts plus other WMR features
>Tyseley: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts; depot has orange/grey lampposts
>Small Heath: Network WM signs, WMR signage, unpainted lampposts (updated as of 2/2/19)
>Bordesley: Network WM signs, WMR signage, orange/grey lampposts (updated as of 2/2/19)
>Birmingham Snow Hill: WMR signs/signage, orange/purple lampposts
>Jewellery Quarter: Network WM signs, orange/black/grey lampposts/fences
>The Hawthorns: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Rowley Regis: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Old Hill: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Cradley Heath: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Lye: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Stourbridge Junction: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
(>Stourbridge Town: Network WM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts)
>Hagley: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Blakedown: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Kidderminster: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Hartlebury: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Droitwich Spa: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Worcester Shrub Hill: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Worcester Foregate Street: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Malvern Link: LM/old-style GWR signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Great Malvern: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Colwall: LM signs, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Ledbury: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts

Chase Line (Aston (exc.) - Walsall - Rugeley TV (exc.))
All WMT-operated stations between Aston (exc.) & Rugeley Trent Valley (exc.) are in WMR orange & grey, with the exception of Witton (still in LM green/black).
>Witton: Network WM signs/signage, green/black (LM) lampposts
>Perry Barr: Network WM signs/signage (yellow handrails?)
>Hamstead: Network WM signs/signage (yellow handrails?)
>Tame Bridge Parkway: Network WM signs/signage
>Bescot Stadium: Network WM signs/signage
>Walsall: Network WM signs/signage
>Bloxwich: Network WM signs/signage (green shelters)
>Bloxwich North: WMR signs/signage (green shelters)
>Landywood: WMR signs/signage (green shelters)
>Cannock: Network WM signs/signage
>Hednesford: Network WM signs/signage
>Rugeley Town: LM signs/signage

Others
>Water Orton: WMR signs/signage, orange/grey lampposts
>Wilnecote: LM signs, orange/grey lampposts
>Coleshill Parkway: LM signs, unpainted posts (WMR orange shelter)
>Stone: WMR signs, orange/grey lampposts & handrails
>Kenilworth: similar to Bromsgrove
>Coventry Arena: LM signs, orange/grey lampposts
>Bedworth: LM Olympic Gold signs, orange/grey lampposts
>Bermuda Park: LM signs, orange/grey lampposts
>Bilbrook: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Codsall: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Albrighton: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Cosford: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Shifnal: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Telford Central: LM signs, orange/grey lampposts (updated as of 29/1/19)
>Oakengates: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Wellington: LM signs, old-style GWR lampposts
>Penkridge: LM signs, old-style LMS lampposts

Trains
Class 139
139001: LM livery, WMR branding
139002: LM livery, WMR branding

Class 150 (all to transfer to Northern):
150105: LM livery, WMR branding
150107: ditto
150109: ditto

Class 153 (all to transfer to EMT):
153334: LM livery, WMR branding
153354: ditto
153356: ditto
153364: ditto
153365: ditto
153366: ditto
153371: ditto
153375: ditto

Class 170/5 (2-cars, due to leave the franchise) - all in WMR "outgoing" livery
Class 170/6 (3-cars, due to leave the franchise) - all in WMR "outgoing" livery

Class 172/0 (2-cars, ex-London Overground)
172001: still with LO
172002: at Tyseley for crew training/familiarisation
172003: as per 001
172004: as per 001
172005: as per 001
172006: at Tyseley for crew training/familiarisation
172007: as per 001
172008: as per 001

Class 172/2 (2-cars, with gangway)
172211: LM livery, WMR branding
172212: ditto
172213: ditto
172214: ditto
172215: ditto
172216: ditto
172217: ditto
172218: ditto
172219: ditto
172220: ditto
172221: ditto
172222: ditto

Class 172/3 (3-cars, with gangway) - all in FINAL WMR livery

Class 323 (due to leave the franchise) - all in outgoing WMR livery
323201-216: not PRM compliant
323217: PRM compliant, refurbished.
323218-222; 240-243: not PRM compliant.

(NB: WCML stations and Class 230s, 319s and 350s are omitted as they fall under the LNWR umbrella and this list focuses on the WMR side of things)
Feel free to quote this post with any updates to the list!

@59CosG95 172 006 is now at tyseley

Bletchleyite said:

All of their graphical design and promotional material is extremely poor, to be honest, really amateurish. The bizarre thing is that the person doing it seems to be showing off about it on Twitter, completely ignoring the fact that all this is doing is making him look not very good at his job.

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Self-praise :P
Even when it's not great, still hark on about how good it is to save face.

I was with a company that changed branding companies.
The new one was terrible - clearly new and unexperienced in some basic artistic skills in some of their branding. Yet as time went on, you could see them learning as the years went on.

pt_mad said:

As with Network Rail operated stations?

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And CIS screens in various parts of the country.

without going off topic, you can use elements of a corporate identity without plastering the logo everywhere. Graphic design and corporate branding are completely different. Good example is the container graphics that tesco use on the Davantry - Mossend trains, they have 'less CO' on the sides of the container but the font and style used mean you instantly recognise it is Tesco. Some of the best liveries are very simple. It isnt always the designer's fault however, as they often lead down the wrong path by the clients views or as I have experienced, design by committee where no-one makes a decision and the design just goes round and round without any direction or goal. If the designer at the signmakers is a different person to the artist who works at the company doing then vinyl wraps on the trains, without a strongly enforced corporate ID manual they usually start heading in different directions.

I have reworded a post I made earlier on this thread at the request of the moderators as my previous post did not appear to be relevant to this thread.

Regarding the 172/0 units due to come to WMR from London Overground, the latest information is that LO are modifying class 378 units to run on the GOBLIN line to allow the 172s to be released by mid March. This is a temporary modification pending delivery of Bombardier 710s

More information is available in TfL press release
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...NgWr3PLXypvMozC8AKUvyRdbz5OgPT2vKFERrNS5pNsCQ

Bordesley & Small Heath now have WMR signage, but not signs (i.e. they still have the Network WM nameboards, but all traces of LM are now gone)

172003 has moved to Ilford for work to be done for WMT. HTH


MARK

Deleted- wrong thread

Olton station now has new signs. Looks awful in my opinion, station name all to the right hand side, with West Midlands Railway taking up the left-hand side. Tbh even the font looks outdated... not a big fan if you can't tell!

Are any two car 172s in the new livery? That would complete the rebranding 153s and 150s excluded

With lnwr are all 350/2s in the partial relivery yet?

387star said:

Are any two car 172s in the new livery?

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None yet, I would expect them to start once the 172/0s enter service.

387star said:

Are any two car 172s in the new livery? That would complete the rebranding 153s and 150s excluded

With lnwr are all 350/2s in the partial relivery yet?

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No, loads of 350/2s still LM, none have been done for a few months now.

Those station signs will look even more ridiculous when the franchise ends and they mask off the logo.

I have no problem with TOC branding on the signs, but there should be a rule that the station name should dominate the sign with the branding secondary. Pretty much like every other TOC has done since privatisation.

After Polesworth being first, guess where's second....the quietest station on the south WCML (and one of the few[1] with no wheelchair access despite a brand new footbridge, which I never quite understood how they were able to do), Cheddington!

[1] I've just remembered Tring has no wheelchair access either.

Andyh82 said:

I have no problem with TOC branding on the signs, but there should be a rule that the station name should dominate the sign with the branding secondary. Pretty much like every other TOC has done since privatisation.

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The standard approach of a white sign with a 2" wide colour strip in the TOC's colour with a small logo served quite well for many years. Though even the very custom white-on-black LM signs still look good (better than anything WMT have come up with) with the bottom 2" masked off.

Re the /2s maybe they realised they look utterly awful. Mind you, better than the "Trebor Mints" livery on the /1s and /3s. Too many vertical elements to work.

Bletchleyite said:

After Polesworth being first, guess where's second....the quietest station on the south WCML (and one of the few[1] with no wheelchair access despite a brand new footbridge, which I never quite understood how they were able to do), Cheddington!

[1] I've just remembered Tring has no wheelchair access either.

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Weren't the brands made for LNR and WMT specified to be carried through different franchises?

centraltrains said:

Weren't the brands made for LNR and WMT specified to be carried through different franchises?

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Yes, but there is no certainty (or requirement) for the next TOC to actually adopt them, unlike ScotRail. It's just at their cost if they don't.

What they basically ruled out was the use of the likes of "First x", "Stagecoach X", "Arriva X", "Virgin X" etc unless the company paid the full costs of removing it *and* providing a replacement generic brand.