London Euston - Shrewsbuy

I will be travelling from Euston to Shrewsbury on 12th April returning on the 18th April.

I need to arrive at Shrewsbury around 15:30 on the 12th and depart Shrewsbury no earlier than 10:30 on the 18th.

I am looking at advance fares and am getting rather confused. Some trains have no advances available and for the ones that do the prices seem to vary enormously. From checking the Virgin Trains website it seems the most logical outbound train for me would be the 12:43 arriving at 15:19 with a change at Brimingham International. The price for an off peak single is £61 and there appears to be no advances available for this service. I haven't even looked at the return leg yet!

Could people kindly explain why some train have advances and others do not, why there are such big differences in advance ticket prices for trains and what my best option are in this situation?

Advances were traditionally released 12 weeks before departure, but Network Rail are having problems releasing info on timetables and engineering work so are only available 6 weeks before departure normally. Some trains are known to not be affected so those advances are available, but they would have got snapped up.

Sign up for ticket alerts on a website that does them so you get notified when the majority of the advances get released.

Thanks. I didn't know about the timetabling issues. That would explain why there were no advance options for my preferred train.

It still doesn't explain the massive price difference. The 11:23 out of Euston is just £14 standard advance but the same advance on the 11:43 is £60.50.

Would my best bet be to get the, to my mind at least, very cheap standard advance on the 11:23 service and spend an hour or so in Shrewsbury as I'll be quite early or wait it out and see what other advances become available? Price is a factor here as it is personal travel but I am happy to pay a little extra to arrive closer to 15:30. I wouldn't be willing to pay £60.50 though!

3rd rail land said:

Thanks. I didn't know about the timetabling issues. That would explain why there were no advance options for my preferred train.

It still doesn't explain the massive price difference. The 11:23 out of Euston is just £14 standard advance but the same advance on the 11:43 is £60.50.

Would my best bet be to get the, to my mind at least, very cheap standard advance on the 11:23 service and spend an hour or so in Shrewsbury as I'll be quite early or wait it out and see what other advances become available? Price is a factor here as it is personal travel but I am happy to pay a little extra to arrive closer to 15:30. I wouldn't be willing to pay £60.50 though!

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£14 is a great deal - I'd go for it if you're ok with Voyagers

_toommm_ said:

£14 is a great deal - I'd go for it if you're ok with Voyagers

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I've never been on a Voyager. I gather from what people have posted on this forum that Voyagers are not popular. What's wrong with them?

3rd rail land said:

I've never been on a Voyager. I gather from what people have posted on this forum that Voyagers are not popular. What's wrong with them?

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To be honest theres nothing drastically wrong with them outside of the XC network - they've got a bad name because they replaced HSTs on the South West to Scotland services, drastically reducing space and capacity. Really, they're quite competent trains and watching them accelerate away always amazes me because they can really shift.

In my opinion, they're ok. The engine noise and rumble isn'tas bad as people say, but the windows are small. Coupled with the fact that they were designed to tilt, they can be claustraphobic.

Capacity wont be an issue on your service as the 221s run doubled to 10 coaches normally. Its just how you feel about underfloor noise and vibrations, and the toilets do sometimes kick up...

3rd rail land said:

I will be travelling from Euston to Shrewsbury on 12th April returning on the 18th April.

I need to arrive at Shrewsbury around 15:30 on the 12th and depart Shrewsbury no earlier than 10:30 on the 18th.

I am looking at advance fares and am getting rather confused. Some trains have no advances available and for the ones that do the prices seem to vary enormously. From checking the Virgin Trains website it seems the most logical outbound train for me would be the 12:43 arriving at 15:19 with a change at Brimingham International. The price for an off peak single is £61 and there appears to be no advances available for this service. I haven't even looked at the return leg yet!

Could people kindly explain why some train have advances and others do not, why there are such big differences in advance ticket prices for trains and what my best option are in this situation?

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The amount of advances, and the number of tiers for a particular service are set by the TOC (Virgin in this case), they're used to maximise revenue.
If it's a busy train or Virgin feel they can sell enough flexibile tickets (ie Off peak singles etc), then less advances will be released, than quieter services.

_toommm_ said:

To be honest theres nothing drastically wrong with them outside of the XC network - they've got a bad name because they replaced HSTs on the South West to Scotland services, drastically reducing space and capacity. Really, they're quite competent trains and watching them accelerate away always amazes me because they can really shift.

In my opinion, they're ok. The engine noise and rumble isn't as bad as people say, but the windows are small. Coupled with the fact that they were designed to tilt, they can be claustraphobic.

Capacity wont be an issue on your service as the 221s run doubled to 10 coaches normally. Its just how you feel about underfloor noise and vibrations, and the toilets do sometimes kick up...

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Ok, so they aren't perfect but sounds like it is only minor things. Not enough of a reason to avoid them. So long as there is suitable space to stow my suitcase and an overhead luggage rack to store my violin (i'm an amateur musician) then thats good enough for me. I've been on Pendalinos before and had no issues with the tilt.

cactustwirly said:

The amount of advances, and the number of tiers for a particular service are set by the TOC (Virgin in this case), they're used to maximise revenue.
If it's a busy train or Virgin feel they can sell enough flexibile tickets (ie Off peak singles etc), then less advances will be released, than quieter services.

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Yes, I've known this for quite a long time as after all its all about profit for the privately run TOCs! I was just surpised to not see advance options on all trains on the 12th. I can't imagine there will be huge demand on a THursday morning/lunchtime. The afformentioned NR timetable issues explains why this is the case though.

3rd rail land said:

Would my best bet be to get the, to my mind at least, very cheap standard advance on the 11:23 service and spend an hour or so in Shrewsbury as I'll be quite early or wait it out and see what other advances become available? Price is a factor here as it is personal travel but I am happy to pay a little extra to arrive closer to 15:30. I wouldn't be willing to pay £60.50 though!

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It might be worth checking out splitting tickets in Birmingham, which could give you an option to break the journey there - there are several well-known pubs a few minutes walk from the west end of New St station if that appeals, or the new(ish) Bull Ring centre is close by.
Coming back from the Welsh coast to Euston last autumn, a split in Birmingham cut the cost by nearly 2/3, my New St to Euston ticket was £6.60 with a railcard (on a Virgin pendolino, not LNW).

Or travel from Marylebone via Birmingham Moor Street? 1140 out on 12th April for £8.50 advance arriving 1514, and depart 1034 back on the 18th again to Marylebone via Moor Street also £8.50 advance.

0B00 said:

Or travel from Marylebone via Birmingham Moor Street? 1140 out on 12th April for £8.50 advance arriving 1514, and depart 1034 back on the 18th again to Marylebone via Moor Street also £8.50 advance.

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That is certainly an option. £5.50 for the 1st leg and then £7.50 for the 2nd leg. It does add a lot of time to the journey though and would be a total journey time of 3 hrs 39 minutes. Cheap though.

The most direct train takes 2 hrs 37 minutes which is the 12:43 out of Euston.

0B00 said:

Or travel from Marylebone via Birmingham Moor Street? 1140 out on 12th April for £8.50 advance arriving 1514, and depart 1034 back on the 18th again to Marylebone via Moor Street also £8.50 advance.

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Or go one way and return the other for a change of scenery.

3rd rail land said:

Yes, I've known this for quite a long time as after all its all about profit for the privately run TOCs! I was just surpised to not see advance options on all trains on the 12th. I can't imagine there will be huge demand on a THursday morning/lunchtime. The afformentioned NR timetable issues explains why this is the case though.

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It's rather more fundamental (and technical) than that, I think. The itinerary starting on the 11:43 involves changing to a Transport for Wales (what used to be Arriva Trains Wales) service at Birmingham (International or New Street). That service carries reservations, and indeed TfW well their own Advances for travel on it.

For an Advance ticket to be sold, it must be possible for a reservation to be made for all legs of the journey which are on reservable services. If that isn't possible, even on just one of the trains, you can't buy the Advance and so it won't be shown in search results for through tickets (as most sites tend to work).

However, whether or not a reservation can be made is not purely a function of whether there are physically any unreserved seats remaining. TOCs can, and do, set limits as to the number of seat reservations they make available for their reservable services - based on the tier of the Advance (as Advances are priced in ascending price tiers), as well as the route of the Advance. Clearly, TfW are outright blocking the sale of a through Advance from London to Chester if this involves making use of their (reservable) Birmingham to Shrewsbury service, on a Virgin & Connections through Advance.

So I would wager that it is only possible to get a Virgin & Connections ticket to Shrewsbury on one of the limited number of direct Virgin Trains services, or on a non-reservable West Midlands Trains services (that's all of their Shrewsbury services, at the moment).

If you do still want to travel on TfW, the way around the limitation they have imposed is either to buy either a Chiltern & Connections, or Chiltern & TfW, through Advance (much cheaper, but slower), or to split tickets so that you get one Virgin Trains Advance and another TfW Advance.

Sites such as www.trainsplit.com will suggest all sensible available options (including those involving combinations of tickets), if you enter specific via points or toggle between the different modes of journeys (Fast, Popular or Value).

I think that the rail industry does a very poor job of explaining what is going on and why. Yes, it's not entirely straightforward, but at least giving an overview would be worthwhile. Otherwise people simply don't understand the system and it leads to the (probably accurate) perception of ticket prices being silly and random.

3rd rail land said:

That is certainly an option. £5.50 for the 1st leg and then £7.50 for the 2nd leg. It does add a lot of time to the journey though and would be a total journey time of 3 hrs 39 minutes. Cheap though.

The most direct train takes 2 hrs 37 minutes which is the 12:43 out of Euston.

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Not sure what you mean by the £5.50/£7.50. As 0B00 says, it's £8.50 in total each way London-Shrewsbury on the services he mentioned booking via the Chiltern Website (others are available) with an origin of London Marylebone. NOTE: although it states two changes, it's only 1 change but it involves the walk between Moor Street and New Street.

IanD said:

Not sure what you mean by the £5.50/£7.50. As 0B00 says, it's £8.50 in total each way London-Shrewsbury on the services he mentioned booking via the Chiltern Website (others are available) with an origin of London Marylebone.

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Whenever someone searches for an Advance, the booking engine will typically 'shadow' reserve a specific seat on the services in question in order to ensure that the ticket isn't sold out during the process between searching for the ticket, and paying for it. That 'shadow' reservation is typically held for up to 2 hours.

Therefore it's entirely plausible that the price showed as £5.50 when @3rd rail land searched for the tickets, but that they are now showing as a higher price (especially as I imagine quite a number of other people have also searched for the same journey to find out what's happening!) as no more seats at that price are 'available' according to the database.

Give it a few hours and the prices may well change. I think the risk of the tier of Advances selling out is probably minimal this far in advance.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any feasible way this could be fixed, without, say, saying that "X people have this ticket type in their basket. If you wait Y hours then cheaper tickets of that type may become available, if the people with that ticket in their basket don't book it". That's something that I'm not sure the various parties involved would be willing to collaborate in order to do...

ForTheLoveOf said:

Whenever someone searches for an Advance, the booking engine will typically 'shadow' reserve a specific seat on the services in question in order to ensure that the ticket isn't sold out during the process between searching for the ticket, and paying for it. That 'shadow' reservation is typically held for up to 2 hours.

Therefore it's entirely plausible that the price showed as £5.50 when @3rd rail land searched for the tickets, but that they are now showing as a higher price (especially as I imagine quite a number of other people have also searched for the same journey to find out what's happening!) as no more seats at that price are 'available' according to the database.

Give it a few hours and the prices may well change. I think the risk of the tier of Advances selling out is probably minimal this far in advance.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any feasible way this could be fixed, without, say, saying that "X people have this ticket type in their basket. If you wait Y hours then cheaper tickets of that type may become available, if the people with that ticket in their basket don't book it". That's something that I'm not sure the various parties involved would be willing to collaborate in order to do...

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Ah, I didn't realise the tiers for Advances on Chiltern went so low on this route. BRFARES has £8.50 as the lowest so I thought maybe 3rd Rail Land was splitting London-Moor Street then New Street/Moor Street-Shrewsbury.

IanD said:

Ah, I didn't realise the tiers for Advances on Chiltern went so low on this route. BRFARES has £8.50 as the lowest so I thought maybe 3rd Rail Land was splitting London-Moor Street then New Street/Moor Street-Shrewsbury.

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True - you can only get it for near £5.50 if you have a Railcard (the lowest tier is then £5.60). But the principle remains the same.

IanD said:

Not sure what you mean by the £5.50/£7.50. As 0B00 says, it's £8.50 in total each way London-Shrewsbury on the services he mentioned booking via the Chiltern Website (others are available) with an origin of London Marylebone. NOTE: although it states two changes, it's only 1 change but it involves the walk between Moor Street and New Street.

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I searched for the Marleybone to Birmingham and then Birmingham to Shrewsbury legs of the journey seperately hoping it might turn out cheaper than a single ticket but it didn't. I have a Gold card which I think may be valid to Birmingham these days but I didn't add it when I checked the prices. Despite being eligable I don't have a 26-30 railcard as my gold card gets me a discount on most personal travel I do.

I think my options are:

1. Use the route starting at Marylebone and find some decent films/anthing else suitable to load onto my tablet to keep myself entertained and go the long /scenic route.
2. Use the £14 service out of Euston getting in at 14.14 and find a pub for a pint or explore the town/local attractions for an hour or so.
3. Hope that the service arrriving at 15.19 has advances available in the next few weeks at a worthwhile price.

Edit: Just checked and my gold card is valid all the way to Shrewsbury. I didn't realise the area had been expanded that far north so I could get 1/3rd off the entire journey. I do note that Virgin do not participate in this scheme.

ForTheLoveOf said:

True - you can only get it for near £5.50 if you have a Railcard (the lowest tier is then £5.60). But the principle remains the same.

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I thought you had to actually put the ticket in your basket for it to be made unavailable to others for about 2 hours or has that changed recently?

IanD said:

I thought you had to actually put the ticket in your basket for it to be made unavailable to others for about 2 hours or has that changed recently?

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I think it may depend on the way the booking engine works.

ForTheLoveOf said:

I think it may depend on the way the booking engine works.

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It would be madness to lock every ticket that appeared on the results screen of any booking engine no matter how poorly it was written.

3rd rail land said:

I searched for the Marleybone to Birmingham and then Birmingham to Shrewsbury legs of the journey seperately hoping it might turn out cheaper than a single ticket but it didn't. I have a Gold card which I think may be valid to Birmingham these days but I didn't add it when I checked the prices. Despite being eligable I don't have a 26-30 railcard as my gold card gets me a discount on most personal travel I do.

I think my options are:

1. Use the route starting at Marylebone and find some decent films/anthing else suitable to load onto my tablet to keep myself entertained and go the long /scenic route.
2. Use the £14 service out of Euston getting in at 14.14 and find a pub for a pint or explore the town/local attractions for an hour or so.
3. Hope that the service arrriving at 15.19 has advances available in the next few weeks at a worthwhile price.

Edit: Just checked and my gold card is valid all the way to Shrewsbury. I didn't realise the area had been expanded that far north so I could get 1/3rd off the entire journey. I do note that Virgin do not participate in this scheme.

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Yes, that is pretty much your choice. But note that a Gold Card doesn't entitle you to a discount on Advances, similarly to the Network Railcard. Also note that the validity outside the traditional 'Network Area' is restricted - for example, CrossCountry don't accept them north of Banbury, and Virgin Trains don't accept them at all.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Yes, that is pretty much your choice. But note that a Gold Card doesn't entitle you to a discount on Advances, similarly to the Network Railcard. Also note that the validity outside the traditional 'Network Area' is restricted - for example, CrossCountry don't accept them north of Banbury, and Virgin Trains don't accept them at all.

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Ah yes, thanks for reminding me that my gold card isn't valid with advances. I had managed to forget that. I don't bother with advances much in the South East where I mostly travel because the saving are minimal. I just buy off peak tickets and use my gold card. That way I can change my plans at short notice if I wish to.

I'll have a ponder and make a decision on what route/service to go for within the next few days and report back. I expect I won't go for option 3 and 1 is quite attractice at the ridiculously cheap price that it is.

If I may say so, you seem to be fixed on the £61 off-peak single fare on Virgin to Shrewsbury.
Do you realise the off-peak return is only £62?
This is valid on any route/operator via Birmingham (you can mix and match).
There is also a similar Any Permitted fare of £76 return which is valid via Crewe (which is sometimes faster) as well as via Birmingham.
The web sites like to offer single walk-on fares rather than returns which can be much better value.

LNW-GW Joint said:

If I may say so, you seem to be fixed on the £61 off-peak single fare on Virgin to Shrewsbury.
Do you realise the off-peak return is only £62?
This is valid on any route/operator via Birmingham (you can mix and match).
There is also a similar Any Permitted fare of £76 return which is valid via Crewe (which is sometimes faster) as well as via Birmingham.
The web sites like to offer single walk-on fares rather than returns which can be much better value.

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Yes, it may seem like I was obsessed with the single fare but I did know about the open off peak return. Whilst I consider £62 to be decent value for a journey of this length I know advances will offer much better value than this.
I did find that some sites didn't even list the open ticket options. Obviously they don't want to make it easier for people to buy open returns as they are much better value than 2 singles.

Having never been to Shrewsbury I didn't realise that so many TOCs call at this station.

3rd rail land said:

Having never been to Shrewsbury I didn't realise that so many TOCs call at this station.

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It’s mainly Transport for Wales (previously Arriva Trains Wales) that serve Shrewsbury. West Midlands Railway provide an stopping service hourly (Mondays-Saturdays only). Virgin Trains provide 2 trains a day .

With your railcard, you could get the Super Off Peak return from Chiltern for £24.15 valid only via High Wycombe but on any train departing London 0830-1600 and any arriving back after 1130. So OK on the 1140 ex Marylebone or the 1210 which gets you to Shrewsbury almost half an hour quicker at 15:19. Also has the advantage that you can buy it at the station on the day of travel for the same price.

IanD said:

With your railcard, you could get the Super Off Peak return from Chiltern for £24.15 valid only via High Wycombe but on any train departing London 0830-1600 and any arriving back after 1130. So OK on the 1140 ex Marylebone or the 1210 which gets you to Shrewsbury almost half an hour quicker at 15:19. Also has the advantage that you can buy it at the station on the day of travel for the same price.

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Gold Card cannot be used before 09:30 on weekdays.

IanD said:

With your railcard, you could get the Super Off Peak return from Chiltern for £24.15 valid only via High Wycombe but on any train departing London 0830-1600 and any arriving back after 1130. So OK on the 1140 ex Marylebone or the 1210 which gets you to Shrewsbury almost half an hour quicker at 15:19. Also has the advantage that you can buy it at the station on the day of travel for the same price.

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You could get the 1010 or 1110 out of Marylebone which is booked to be hauled by a class 68 locomotive with comfortable coaches and gets to Birmingham at 1156 or 1256. On the return, there is class 68 trains from Birmingham at 1255, 1355 and 1555. They are an excellent ride and a much more pleasant journey than on a Virgin Voyager.