Level crossing incident Horsham 28/1/19

Esker-pades · 29 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
When I was in the Dominican Republic, they had traffic lights with countdown lights (from 30 seconds or 1 minute). Everyone I obeyed these and it kept traffic moving brilliantly. I wonder if this could be implemented here somehow.

Not for level crossings because it would be seriously inaccurate. Trains wouldn't be able to hit the crossing with up-to-the-second precision, which is what would be required for such a countdown. Normal pedestrian lights and road junctions, fine. Level crossings? No.

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Robsignals · 29 Jan 2019

I suspect many drivers treat the lights as a warning that the barriers are about to lower and it's ok to cross until they do which is essentially true and may be why Open Crossings are being fitted with barriers. They need power on to stay up so are fail safe, to raise when they should be down is an "unprotected wrong side failure" and every precaution is taken to prevent these. Very rare and would probably have to be deliberate sabotage by someone who knew how they work in detail .

At Parsonage Road trains are running at restricted speed due to its proximity to Horsham station. At all crossings the lights continue to flash until all the barriers have risen and the signaller will receive an alarm so cautioning all trains.

Deepgreen · 29 Jan 2019

Poor reporting from the local rag again! They are not "emergency" red lights; simply the normal ones which illuminate when the crossing is to be/is closed. Based on this article will these red lights now be treated as an emergency with people calling the emergency services?!

Clip · 29 Jan 2019

Deepgreen said:
Based on this article will these red lights now be treated as an emergency with people calling the emergency services?!

I highly doubt that - especially given what must be low readership of these rags now that most people wouldnt even think about doing such a thing.

E759 · 29 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
I will also state, I didn’t realise it was a half barrier crossing. I should’ve clicked into the actual story.

Full barrier at Parsonage Road Horsham. That’s why the car that allegedly drove through the flashing red lights had to allegedly reverse back as the two barriers in front of him blocked the vehicles path forwards.

Barns Green = Half barriers

Sunset route · 29 Jan 2019

E759 said:
Full barrier at Parsonage Road Horsham. That’s why the car that allegedly drove through the flashing red lights had to allegedly reverse back as the two barriers in front of him blocked the vehicles path forwards.

Barns Green = Half barriers

Parsonage Road is most certainly AHBs
Littlehaven just up the line is full MCB-CCTV barrier crossing.

Brissle Girl · 29 Jan 2019

The video in the link clearly shows it is AHB.

E759 · 29 Jan 2019

Oops yes getting confused! Use the train more than the car these days

Apologies all.

Bikeman78 · 29 Jan 2019

Brissle Girl said:
Normally I have very little sympathy for road users who misuse level crossings, but I can entirely see how this could be dangerous. After a train has passed, the raising of the barriers occurs at the same time as the wig-wag lights extinguish. If a motorist sees a barrier in front of him raise, most would take that as a clear sign to proceed, especially at a half barrier when the exit is clear also, and I doubt they would be checking that the lights had also gone out.

Agreed, especially as the lights keep flashing until the barriers are almost vertical. If the barrier in front of you goes up it might take a few seconds to spot that the other one is still horizontal.

Skutter · 29 Jan 2019

Deafdoggie said:
Interestingly the DoT (whom we all know and love) give the primary reason of installing Wig-Wag as the lights changing being irregular, whereas traffic light changes are predictable. .

Never heard that one, sounds like rubbish at a first pass. Pedestrian crossings - normally green to road until a pedestrian pushes the button, then variable time before yellow & then red. Part-time signals usually blank, can turn yellow & then red at any time.

Deafdoggie · 29 Jan 2019

Skutter said:
Never heard that one, sounds like rubbish at a first pass. Pedestrian crossings - normally green to road until a pedestrian pushes the button, then variable time before yellow & then red. Part-time signals usually blank, can turn yellow & then red at any time.

Not like the DoT to be wrong! But I guess they would argue you could predict a pelican crossing, as a pedestrian is waiting.

philthetube · 30 Jan 2019

ainsworth74 said:
I've seen loads of people jump conventional red lights (or go through on amber that was definitely tinged red by the time they did!) I've yet to see anyone jump a wig-wag. Misuse of level crossing lights gets a lot of attention because it is quite rare (in comparison to the number of vehicles that use crossings daily) whilst jumping conventional lights is almost normalised (which isn't to suggest it isn't wrong, it is, but it is perceived to be less severe and lower risk). So I'm not convinced that changing the crossing light type is wise.

It strikes me that education and publicity is required (that Top Gear segment when they rammed a 31 into a car has stuck with me) as well as continuing the programme of closing crossings (or at least replacing them with full barrier either monitored or obstacle detection). Though I guess part of this comes back to the deplorable state of knowledge of the Highway Code of most drivers (not that I'm a paragon of virtue!) as there is no check on someone's knowledge once they pass their test!

I saw two during consecutive sequences at Sunningdale yesterday.

Joey Beauchamp · 30 Jan 2019

I'm not sure if this is anything to do with the Horsham incident, but Wallsend level crossing (Pevensey Bay Station) almost caught me out this morning as I was cycling to catch my train. It usually starts closing as the train approaches the platform, but today it closed at least 90 seconds earlier - the train was just leaving Pevensey & Westham. I'll see if it happens again tomorrow. I definitely need to leave the house earlier!

al78 · 30 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
It isnt difficult.

If there’s one barrier down and you assume the one that’s down is faulty so proceed on to the crossing, then you need your head checking.

Yes that is the rational thing to do, but when things happen that really aren't supposed to happen, confusion sets in, and people can do irrational things when confused. Humans are not machines, and act on emotion and instinct as much or more so than logic. Any system involving humans needs to accept this and take it into account as much as is practical. Denying things doesn't change them.

Islineclear3_1 · 30 Jan 2019

Joey Beauchamp said:
I'm not sure if this is anything to do with the Horsham incident, but Wallsend level crossing (Pevensey Bay Station) almost caught me out this morning as I was cycling to catch my train. It usually starts closing as the train approaches the platform, but today it closed at least 90 seconds earlier - the train was just leaving Pevensey & Westham. I'll see if it happens again tomorrow. I definitely need to leave the house earlier!

I can't remember off the top of my head, is this a MCB-CCTV crossing?

Would the train have passed through Pevensey Bay without stopping - hence the earlier lowering of the barriers

sarahj · 30 Jan 2019

ainsworth74 said:
I've seen loads of people jump conventional red lights (or go through on amber that was definitely tinged red by the time they did!) I've yet to see anyone jump a wig-wag. Misuse of level crossing lights gets a lot of attention because it is quite rare (in comparison to the number of vehicles that use crossings daily) whilst jumping conventional lights is almost normalised (which isn't to suggest it isn't wrong, it is, but it is perceived to be less severe and lower risk). So I'm not convinced that changing the crossing light type is wise.

It strikes me that education and publicity is required (that Top Gear segment when they rammed a 31 into a car has stuck with me) as well as continuing the programme of closing crossings (or at least replacing them with full barrier either monitored or obstacle detection). Though I guess part of this comes back to the deplorable state of knowledge of the Highway Code of most drivers (not that I'm a paragon of virtue!) as there is no check on someone's knowledge once they pass their test!

I think you need to visit some of the crossing here on the south coast. I was at Portslade the other day and after we arrived the barriers lifted. We were due at the station for about 3 mins and just before they left the alarms went, the lights flashed and the barriers came down. I saw one car and thought, they are pushing it, followed by another, and then a 4x4 whose roof was hit by the barrier skirts. I've also seen the barrier here come down on someone on a mobility scooter who crossed after the lights has started. It is just silly.

Islineclear3_1 · 30 Jan 2019

Same at St Dunstans, Canterbury...it's an extremely congested part of town and traffic regularly sits/fouls the crossing

Surreytraveller · 30 Jan 2019

Joey Beauchamp said:
I'm not sure if this is anything to do with the Horsham incident, but Wallsend level crossing (Pevensey Bay Station) almost caught me out this morning as I was cycling to catch my train. It usually starts closing as the train approaches the platform, but today it closed at least 90 seconds earlier - the train was just leaving Pevensey & Westham. I'll see if it happens again tomorrow. I definitely need to leave the house earlier!

Some level crossings have different settings depending upon whether a fast train or a stopping train is approaching. Sometimes the crossing might be in the wrong setting, and close thinking its a fast train that's approaching, closes early, but the train stops at the station.
Railway staff are taught never to assume or guess things if on the track.

LAX54 · 30 Jan 2019

Muzz said:
The local Horsham paper is reporting that a train went through Parsonage Road level crossing with one of the barriers still in the upright position.

https://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/new...ous-fault-at-horsham-level-crossing-1-8787681

That 'report' is just wrong on so many counts ! but then again it makes a good scare story

LAX54 · 30 Jan 2019

FelixtheCat said:
I don't agree. Red lights flashing but some barriers are up? That is sending mixed messages. I would certainly be anxious enough to speak to the crossing operator.

The lights were flashing, the booms raised, but one was still down, so the lights will continue to flash, as the road is not clear, a 'failed' alarm will sound in the box, the Signaller then lowered the remaining three, once all 4 are down, and the indication in box shows 'lowered', can then press crossing clear, (assuming it is clear!) and I would have thought left them down, and ran trains normally. pending S&T arrival (or the MOM)

But of course many cars do not wait for the red lights to go out, as soon as the barriers start to raise....of they go, if one has failed they will come to a grinding halt !

The lights DO NOT go out as soon as the booms start to raise.

LAX54 · 30 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
I hate this comment because I agree with it, but I want to argue against it. Haha.

I think the red flashing lights should be replaced with actual road traffic lights. Red amber and green. People don’t seem to recognise these wigwags as real traffic lights. Even thought they’re meant to warn of even greater danger, I think they do the opposite.

What could you use as a fail safe? It has to cost pennies (pennys/penny’s???) because network rail won’t be spending much to install.

Steady Red Light: STOP, but Emergency services can pass if safe to do so.
Flashing Reds: MANDATORY STOP ALL TRAFFIC including Emergency services, like wise a Police Officer CANNOT tell motorists to pass flashing reds, even if he knew there were no trains.

It's quite simple really

LAX54 · 30 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
I will also state, I didn’t realise it was a half barrier crossing. I should’ve clicked into the actual story.

No I read it as full barriers, it was the way it's written, so one up one down 'FAILED' alarm in box, however red lights would have not stopped flashing, had he driven on to crossing as 'his' boom was up, there is no boom the other side to stop him,

Tomnick · 30 Jan 2019

swills said:
No I read it as full barriers, it was the way it's written, so one up one down 'FAILED' alarm in box, however red lights would have not stopped flashing, had he driven on to crossing as 'his' boom was up, there is no boom the other side to stop him,

The video in the article shows a half-barrier crossing.

nuts & bolts · 30 Jan 2019

sw1ller said:
I hate this comment because I agree with it, but I want to argue against it. Haha.

I think the red flashing lights should be replaced with actual road traffic lights. Red amber and green. People don’t seem to recognise these wigwags as real traffic lights. Even thought they’re meant to warn of even greater danger, I think they do the opposite.

What could you use as a fail safe? It has to cost pennies (pennys/penny’s???) because network rail won’t be spending much to install.

You’ll still get “amber gamblers” pushing their luck at the very last moment.

DennisM · 30 Jan 2019

Joey Beauchamp said:
I'm not sure if this is anything to do with the Horsham incident, but Wallsend level crossing (Pevensey Bay Station) almost caught me out this morning as I was cycling to catch my train. It usually starts closing as the train approaches the platform, but today it closed at least 90 seconds earlier - the train was just leaving Pevensey & Westham. I'll see if it happens again tomorrow. I definitely need to leave the house earlier!

Possibly due to the current icy conditions, the signaller may have been instructed to ensure the crossing is closed when the train arrives at the platform just in case it’s unable to stop.

SussexMan · 30 Jan 2019

Joey Beauchamp said:
I'm not sure if this is anything to do with the Horsham incident, but Wallsend level crossing (Pevensey Bay Station) almost caught me out this morning as I was cycling to catch my train. It usually starts closing as the train approaches the platform, but today it closed at least 90 seconds earlier - the train was just leaving Pevensey & Westham. I'll see if it happens again tomorrow. I definitely need to leave the house earlier!

I cycle over the crossing most mornings on my commute and am surprised how late the crossing sequence starts when a train is approaching the station on the down line when it is due to call at the station. Similar to Polegate.

robert7111a said:
I can't remember off the top of my head, is this a MCB-CCTV crossing?

No, its MCB-OD (Manually Controlled Barriers with Obstacle Detection)

DennisM said:
Possibly due to the current icy conditions, the signaller may have been instructed to ensure the crossing is closed when the train arrives at the platform just in case it’s unable to stop.

Would make sense.

Last week I crossed over the crossing whilst the red lights were flashing - with authorisation from the police. I was about a mile and a half away when I heard a train horn which is rare at that point. As I approached the crossing a few minutes later there was a long queue of cars with some starting to turn round. I approached the crossing and the lights were flashing and the barriers were half raised, The train was in the station still and then it very slowly crossed the crossing whilst sounding the horn. The barriers remained as they were and Network Rail staff and police were in attendance. The policeman said the crossing was closed so I asked him whether I could just walk across. He said that it was at my risk but no trains were coming so if I wanted to that was fine. So got off my bike and walked across. Network Rail staff didn't seem to have any objection.

High Dyke · 30 Jan 2019

Brissle Girl said:
The video in the link clearly shows it is AHB.

It is indeed and AHB, as confirmed by this from Network Rail.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/communities/safety-in-the-community/level-crossing-safety/

swills said:
That 'report' is just wrong on so many counts ! but then again it makes a good scare story

However the average 'Joe Public' may not understand the technical operations of such crossings.

SussexMan said:
Last week I crossed over the crossing whilst the red lights were flashing - with authorisation from the police. I was about a mile and a half away when I heard a train horn which is rare at that point. As I approached the crossing a few minutes later there was a long queue of cars with some starting to turn round. I approached the crossing and the lights were flashing and the barriers were half raised, The train was in the station still and then it very slowly crossed the crossing whilst sounding the horn. The barriers remained as they were and Network Rail staff and police were in attendance. The policeman said the crossing was closed so I asked him whether I could just walk across. He said that it was at my risk but no trains were coming so if I wanted to that was fine. So got off my bike and walked across. Network Rail staff didn't seem to have any objection.

Oh dear... I wonder if the police officer had contacted the signaller regarding the crossing. As signallers we are not permitted to authorise any movement of road traffic over a failed AHB level crossing, and the Rule Book also carries information regarding a police officer attending a level crossing failure.

Police officer attending during a failure of level crossing equipment
If a police officer contacts you from a level crossing where
equipment has failed, you must only tell the officer about the
arrangements made for:
• an attendant or technician to attend
• passing trains over the crossing during the period of failure.

Source: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TS9 Iss 4.pdf

Joey Beauchamp · 30 Jan 2019

SussexMan said:
I cycle over the crossing most mornings on my commute and am surprised how late the crossing sequence starts when a train is approaching the station on the down line when it is due to call at the station. Similar to Polegate.

No, its MCB-OD (Manually Controlled Barriers with Obstacle Detection)

Would make sense.

Last week I crossed over the crossing whilst the red lights were flashing - with authorisation from the police. I was about a mile and a half away when I heard a train horn which is rare at that point. As I approached the crossing a few minutes later there was a long queue of cars with some starting to turn round. I approached the crossing and the lights were flashing and the barriers were half raised, The train was in the station still and then it very slowly crossed the crossing whilst sounding the horn. The barriers remained as they were and Network Rail staff and police were in attendance. The policeman said the crossing was closed so I asked him whether I could just walk across. He said that it was at my risk but no trains were coming so if I wanted to that was fine. So got off my bike and walked across. Network Rail staff didn't seem to have any objection.

I got there before the police or anyone official had arrived. I needed to get to the far platform for my train so I looked left and right a few times and walked my bike across. This was obviously a risk but there are foot crossings just up the track and when you are a pedestrian, you can see if the line is clear even when standing far back from the track.

From the platform I was shocked to see several cars (at least 10) driving across. Many of them nudged their way across, some even stopped completely to see if the line was clear whilst their front wheels were over the tracks! A train arrived heading towards Eastbourne extremely slowly and cautiously, and a couple of cars drove across in front of it! I couldn't really believe the stupidity, but I suppose nothing should surprise me by now.

I had never thought about different settings for through trains, but it clearly makes sense. I will see what happens tomorrow. I've caught the 8.01 train most weekdays since August and yesterday was the first time that the crossing has gone down so early.

Joey Beauchamp · 31 Jan 2019

Joey Beauchamp said:
I got there before the police or anyone official had arrived. I needed to get to the far platform for my train so I looked left and right a few times and walked my bike across. This was obviously a risk but there are foot crossings just up the track and when you are a pedestrian, you can see if the line is clear even when standing far back from the track.

From the platform I was shocked to see several cars (at least 10) driving across. Many of them nudged their way across, some even stopped completely to see if the line was clear whilst their front wheels were over the tracks! A train arrived heading towards Eastbourne extremely slowly and cautiously, and a couple of cars drove across in front of it! I couldn't really believe the stupidity, but I suppose nothing should surprise me by now.

I had never thought about different settings for through trains, but it clearly makes sense. I will see what happens tomorrow. I've caught the 8.01 train most weekdays since August and yesterday was the first time that the crossing has gone down so early.

The level crossing was back to its normal timing this morning, as were Southern who cancelled a few services.

There were two men in orange jackets looking at the crossing mechanism, one of whom was leaning across the barriers to check something and nearly got lifted off his feet when they opened, much to the amusement of his colleague.

L&Y Robert · 31 Jan 2019

Why not have wig-wags AND “Normal” traffic lights? They could be sited a little distance back from the crossing barrier, complete with the normal stop-line on the road surface and any other “Normal” features. This is the right set of visual cues for a road user, it means STOP in no uncertain terms. And it should be easy to do, the traffic lights triggered to red by the initial yellow of the wig-wag, and cleared to green as soon as the wig-wags stop.

As an aside, (I hope you'll allow it, oh Mods) is it 'amber' or 'yellow'? Here railway usage meets road usage. The wig-wag reds are preceded by – what? The colour is plainly yellow in both regimes, yet the Highway Code persists in this use of the word 'amber'. Amber is a substance, it is fossilised tree resin. Yellow is the colour. We could extend this use of the names of 'stuff' to describe railway signals “ - as I came round the curve I saw that the signal was blood, but it immediately cleared to grass with out the intervening amber”. How crazy is that?
A route indicating "feather" could be "Snow".

Level crossing incident Horsham 28/1/19

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