• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scrapped HS2 bike path 'five times better value than HS2 itself'

Status
Not open for further replies.

Goldie

Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
156
I'm always suspicious when people are making up financial benefits to try to justify spending other peoples money on their own pet projects. If there really are health congestion and economic benefits then surely the beneficiaries, in this case the cyclists, should be willing to pay, either through a toll or a general tax on adult cyclists.

In this case the "people making up financial benefits" were consultants appointed by the government, and the "other people's money" would also have been the government's. The "pet project" was initiated by the government, in a rare moment of enthusiasm for big ticket cycling infrastructure spending. And the "health congestion and economic benefits" of cycling are felt by all of us, not just those brave enough to get on a bike. I split my commutes between driving and riding. Let's assume for a moment that you share some of my route to work. Every time I get on my bike, there is one less car in front of you, competing for the road space that you want to use. In my case, I am lucky enough to have a largely traffic free route to work, so you do not even have to suffer the momentary inconvenience of safely overtaking me. Let's assume that you and I both rely on the NHS to keep us healthy. Every time I get on my bike, there are measurable health benefits that mean I am less likely to need to use the scarce resources that the NHS has which you also want to use. Let's assume that you rely on the tax paid by the firm that I work for and the people that I employ to fund some of the public services that you use. There are measurable benefits in terms of better physical and mental health and reduced absenteeism where people ride reguarly.

There are sound reasons for questioning this proposal, but they are not the ones that you have mentioned.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,309
Location
Birmingham
If only there was a two wheeled vehicle that offered most of the congestion lowering and parking benefits of a bicycle, while also able to use the roads for travelling larger distances. Maybe with an internal combustion engine. Someone should have a look into that.
 

Via Bank

Member
Joined
28 Mar 2010
Messages
672
Location
London
Quite possibly. I don't understand why the taxpayer should provide a free playground for (predominantly) young men in Lycra riding their Childrens Toys when most other sporting/recreational activities usually involve paying a fee of some sort. Most of these could also have similar benefits.
And this is, again, why so few people cycle here - because the moment anyone proposes anything that would allow normal people to cycle in normal clothes for normal transport, it is derided as a childrens’ toy. Therefore the only people who cycle are daredevils who treat it like a children’s toy.

This is pathetic.
 

gordonthemoron

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2006
Messages
6,594
Location
Milton Keynes
And this is, again, why so few people cycle here - because the moment anyone proposes anything that would allow normal people to cycle in normal clothes for normal transport, it is derided as a childrens’ toy. Therefore the only people who cycle are daredevils who treat it like a children’s toy.

This is pathetic.

I thought it was usually middle aged men in lycra? In anycase, I cycle (on cycle paths) virtually everyday and in my normal clothes
 

sprunt

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2017
Messages
1,172
I think they mean underbridges (through embankments) that are so long that they seem like tunnels:

A pedant write's: what's the difference between an underbridge so long it seems like a tunnel, and a tunnel? :D
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,722
Not so. I agree that for a regular commute it might be worth finding a slightly more level route, but I happily commuted by bike from St Andrews to Temple Meads (and Bath Road depot) for a year and my dad cycled from Tring to Aylesbury and back up Tring Hill for about 5 years. Getting up Cotham Brow to university in my last year was quite a challenge though... Bikes do have gears, you know, and a lot more than the 5 that he and I had then!

Gears don't help you if you can't physically develop enough power to climb the hill fast enough to avoid falling over.
If we want people to cycle then we have to make it as easy and pleasant as possible.

Standardisation and mass deployment of e-bike charging points would also be a big help.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
Gears don't help you if you can't physically develop enough power to climb the hill fast enough to avoid falling over.
If we want people to cycle then we have to make it as easy and pleasant as possible.
If you can't ride up a hill then you get off and push (and it's not really very common, especially when lots of bikes come with 15 gears these days.) If you try hard you find that each week you can get a bit further up the hill...
Mind you on one cycle-camping holiday I had to push a heavily loaded bike downhill into the wind. And in Devon the joke was that you didn't need pedals: you were either freewheeling downhill - or pushing the bike up the next one!
I do agree that we need to make it easier to for people to use bikes though. As a utility cyclist these days I want to be safe on the roads, with special help at junctions if it is needed. It is nice to have on-carriageway bike lanes because a) they get swept occasionally and b) in traffic queues it generally stops jealous motorists pinching you against the kerb to prevent you getting by.
 

takno

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
5,070
If only there was a two wheeled vehicle that offered most of the congestion lowering and parking benefits of a bicycle, while also able to use the roads for travelling larger distances. Maybe with an internal combustion engine. Someone should have a look into that.
Sounds like something that would actually take up most of the space of a car, make a terrible racket, get driven wildly irresponsibly and be an all-round irritant. I think we should proactively ban them before somebody even has the idea.
 

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
553
I think one of the biggest problems with cycleways in this country is the massively overblown design to make them generally confusing scary places to cycle.

The Leeds - Bradford cycle superhighway for one is terribly designed for much of its route and shoddily put together. Near to where I live there are two signposts no more than 20 metres apart giving a difference in the distance to Leeds of 5 miles.

I recently saw the cycle path upgrades at Saddle Junction in Wigan and they were such a waste of money.
 

vlad

Member
Joined
13 May 2018
Messages
749
Sounds like something that would actually take up most of the space of a car, make a terrible racket, get driven wildly irresponsibly and be an all-round irritant. I think we should proactively ban them before somebody even has the idea.

The sort of cars driven by boy racers, you mean? :)
 

Via Bank

Member
Joined
28 Mar 2010
Messages
672
Location
London
I think one of the biggest problems with cycleways in this country is the massively overblown design to make them generally confusing scary places to cycle.

The Leeds - Bradford cycle superhighway for one is terribly designed for much of its route and shoddily put together. Near to where I live there are two signposts no more than 20 metres apart giving a difference in the distance to Leeds of 5 miles.

I recently saw the cycle path upgrades at Saddle Junction in Wigan and they were such a waste of money.
I’m intrigued. Why are they a waste of money? They allow people to cycle safely across the junction to access the retail park, which they couldn’t before. (I think bits of it are over engineered, but this is just from looking at the diagrams and pictures. Otherwise it seems perfectly acceptable.)

What would’ve been a better expenditure of money that would’ve enabled more transport cycling?
 

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
3,054
Location
Connah's Quay
The problem with these sorts of cycle paths is that the optimal alignment for a cycleway is not the same as the optimal alignment of a road or a high speed railway.

A cycleway will prefer a slightly less direct route if the gradients are lowered by doing so - after all most cyclists are limited by power available and not top speed caused by road curvature and the like. (Steep hills defeat utility cyclists who will potentially have quite a lot of stuff in a backpack or pannier)
The nice thing about a cycle path along the route of a railway (open or closed) is that trains aren't good with steep hills either. As no local authority will spend extra on a cycle path to improve the alignment, having nearby infrastructure which constrains the route is probably about as good as cyclists are likely to get.

That said, they don't seem to have proposed this in any case. I don't know what the gradients are, but the cycle route on page 13 of the study covering note looks much twistier than that.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,582
The nice thing about a cycle path along the route of a railway (open or closed) is that trains aren't good with steep hills either. As no local authority will spend extra on a cycle path to improve the alignment, having nearby infrastructure which constrains the route is probably about as good as cyclists are likely to get.

That said, they don't seem to have proposed this in any case. I don't know what the gradients are, but the cycle route on page 13 of the study covering note looks much twistier than that.
I anyone seriously suggesting that the cycle track follows HS2 exactly?

that would entail wider tunnels and embankments for starters costing £billions. Any cycle track would go over the hills and along the valley floors even if adjacent to the line.

Besides, as much as I love railways, the thought of a ride in the country with a 200mph train whistling past my ear every 2 minutes is not the country idyll I crave.
 

Lucan

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2018
Messages
1,211
Location
Wales
Every time I get on my bike, there is one less car in front of you, competing for the road space that you want to use.
It is a fallacy that bikes take less road space than a car. Because cars are faster, to compare with cars the square footage they occupy must be multiplied by the factor by which cars are faster. This is because generally for a given journey the pedal bike is on the road for a longer time.

Of course there are other factors. When I commuted in South London I could do my 10 mile journey on a pedal bike in less time than I took by car. It also depends on road width - a few more feet allowing a car to pass without crossing the white line makes a huge difference in delay and frustration.

I was and still am utterly opposed to "cycle facilities" which are generally designed by people without a clue and in any case assume pedal bikes do not go more than about 10 mph. I gave up cycling when they started to spread, when signs sprung up like at crossroads saying "Cyclists Dismount"; of course on my South London commute I was not delayed by such "facilities", I just rode more like a small motor bike would, and was generally treated as such.
 

Sceptre

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2009
Messages
187
Location
Leeds
I often wonder why the government at all levels in this country seem unable to design proper cycling infrastructure like there is in any town or city in countries like Belgium and Denmark. A decent cycling plan would do wonders for cutting down on the majority of car journeys that are sub-5km.

The cancellation of this plan before it gets off the ground floor just reeks to me of more of the sheer incompetence that we've come to expect from DafT under the boiled egg. Like, honestly, the man can't form a transport strategy to save his life.
 

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
3,054
Location
Connah's Quay
I anyone seriously suggesting that the cycle track follows HS2 exactly?
Someone was saying something about building a tunnel under London, so people have been suggesting that, yes. I'm afraid you'll have to check yourself if you want to find out whether or not this sort of comment was only meant as a straw man.

Meanwhile, I was responding to what HSTEd said about cycle path alignments.
I often wonder why the government at all levels in this country seem unable to design proper cycling infrastructure like there is in any town or city in countries like Belgium and Denmark. A decent cycling plan would do wonders for cutting down on the majority of car journeys that are sub-5km.
I suppose it's partly due to central government being desperate for local government to pay for everything, and local government suffering under central government's budget cuts. There are some pretty good documents about the design of cycle facilities, but costs are inevitably cut when anything is built, and there's little money to improve anything substandard.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,873
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Realistically there is a need for HS2 and there is a need for cycle paths. The two don't really go together and are best funded and built entirely separately.
 

si404

Established Member
Joined
28 Dec 2012
Messages
1,267
The two don't really go together and are best funded and built entirely separately.
And looking at this 'HS2 bike path', it's a totally different project to HS2, having nothing to do with the railway beyond rough areas served.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,722
The nice thing about a cycle path along the route of a railway (open or closed) is that trains aren't good with steep hills either.

High speed trains are actually quite good with them, as they are capable of sustained gradients above 2.5% and as high as 4% these days.
Traveling any serious distance at 2.5% is going to get tiring quite quickly, especially for a not particularly fit utility cyclist

Dismounting and pushing the bike seriously decreases the average speed of the journey and makes cycling less attractive to the end users who we must convince to take up cycling.

A better route would be something resembling the "Grand Contour Canal" that was proposed in the aftermath of WW2.
On the flat cyclists can cover ground rather fast.
 

Mordac

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2016
Messages
2,309
Location
Birmingham
Sounds like something that would actually take up most of the space of a car, make a terrible racket, get driven wildly irresponsibly and be an all-round irritant. I think we should proactively ban them before somebody even has the idea.
But it has been shown that motorcycle usage does reduce congestion significantly. Consider this report of a Belgian study which found that if just 10% of motorists on a particularly busy stretch of highway switched to a motorcycle or scooter, congestion for all road users would be reduced by 40%. This is because motorcycles can travel at the same speed as a car in fast flowing traffic, but occupy less space in congested traffic due to filtering. They also use smaller engines than cars, thereby generating less emissions, but can be ridden by people of all levels of physical fitness (within fairly wide boundaries at least) over much longer distances than a pushbike, and at faster speeds. And even for parking, I'd say unless you're dealing with extremely large touring bikes, you can usually fit at least 3 motorbikes in a car parking space.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
It is a fallacy that bikes take less road space than a car. Because cars are faster, to compare with cars the square footage they occupy must be multiplied by the factor by which cars are faster. This is because generally for a given journey the pedal bike is on the road for a longer time.
I think that there is more to it. Yes, one [push]bike will cut road capacity for cars if the lanes are not wide enough for safe overtaking, but if you get a "phalanx" of cyclists (like when Crewe Works used to empty out at lunchtime and the end of a shift) you get far more people through a section of the road network per unit time. Probably because a lot of bikes fit onto the footprint of a car and the safe distance needed between them. Maybe 3 or 4 abreast in the lane and probably 6 or 8 bikes in the length of a car and its "1 length per 10 mph" spacing that I was taught."
 

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
553
Something else to think of when looking at bike schemes is that they have to be as direct as possible and not add in unnecessary bends and diversions as this is just wasted time and energy. This is clearly shown when people cut corners when walking, it might only make the journey 10m shorter but we all tend to take these sorts of short cuts. They also have to be simple and easy to follow.

Having cycled in Denmark their cycle paths are intuitive and easy to follow, in comparison to this:
image.jpg


I dread to think the amount of money spent on these works that could have been adequately spent in the town centre on providing secure bike storage at the stations in Wigan centre...
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
I tend to agree, but you try suggesting that on a boaters' forum and see how many limbs you return with.
I know, you should have seen the reaction when I suggested that the railway might want its single bore back at Standedge, even though I suggested a compromise that I thought might be workable! (I now think we should have a Pennine base tunnel that would start by putting Oldham back on the railway map en route to its western portal and come out in time to serve Huddersfield.)
I dread to think the amount of money spent on these works that could have been adequately spent in the town centre on providing secure bike storage at the stations in Wigan centre...
I agree, and the ones that really get my goat are the cheap shared footpaths that require you to divert up every side road, then slow right down to turn a sharp right-angle bend, stop and give way then do the whole thing again in reverse order when you have crossed. I usually ignore them and stick to the main road as I'm usually doing the same speed as the rest of the traffic anyway.
Back to the topic: it is important that HS2 doesn't jeopardise the growth in cycle usage by making the over- and under-bridges less safe for cyclists, and if they need a parallel path for maintenance access - which I think was put in along some of the Trent Valley 4-tracking - then why be a dog-in-the-manger and not allow cycle access for the 360 days a year it is not used?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top