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List of preservation railway's expansion plans in future

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Cowley

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Sums up everything.


See post by "Taunton" above. Shows exactly what I mean.
Your argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny though does it?
Are we to assume that the Bluebell, Chinnor and Princess and North Norfolk Railways should all deeply regret their recently hard earned connections with Network Rail..?
What you say about the length of the line makes a lot of sense (and is something I've also thought and stated at times).
What you said about "track connections with Network Rail are to be avoided" in post #72 is complete and utter nonsense - Unless you're putting yourself forward as a spokesperson for the railway?
Are you involved with them or is just your opinion?
Before yet again bashing out the words Enthusiast, Gricer, Froth etc on your keyboard, go back and read what I said properly as I have with what you've said. At no point have I suggested go in all guns blazing at whatever cost to the railway.

Nearly 30 years ago now I was heavily involved with a steam railway that nearly went to the wall due to overstretching itself by reconnecting to the mainline.
I know a little of what I talk about here.
 
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Brush 4

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Different lines have different circumstances. GWSR doesn't have sea, beaches or a river alongside. P&D doesn't have Cotswold villages, racecourses or Shakespeare. All of these provide potential for the lines affected. As Post 87 says, locals use the P&D as well, as they probably do on other lines. If GWSR reached closer to Cheltenham and connected to Worcester and Evesham via a Honeybourne change, new journey opportunities are opened, as well as the Stratford and Brum ones already mentioned.
 

alexl92

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Does the cost of a track connection with Network Rail justify the cost? Well, if it means Tornado/Flying Jackpot/6233/60009 can arrive by rail for a high-profile gala that brings the railway tens of thousands of £ that it might not otherwise have had, I’d imagine they would say so, yes. I am told that getting some visiting locos in can cost five figures in transport fees let alone hire/steaming fees - plus all the arrangements with the police etc.

I know Keighley is a little different as their connection to NR was never really removed, but would they be able to hire 41001 and 6 mk3 coaches if they all had to arrive by road? Or a couple of years ago, when for some months the local road infrastructure couldn’t support visiting locos being brought into Haworth, the connection was the only way a visiting loco could arrive.

It’s not right for every line, but for some it can open up a whole new market - for tourists, not just enthusiasts.
 
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Your argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny though does it?
Are we to assume that the Bluebell, Chinnor and Princess and North Norfolk Railways should all deeply regret their recently hard earned connections with Network Rail..?
What you say about the length of the line makes a lot of sense (and is something I've also thought and stated at times).
What you said about "track connections with Network Rail are to be avoided" in post #72 is complete and utter nonsense - Unless you're putting yourself forward as a spokesperson for the railway?
Are you involved with them or is just your opinion?
Before yet again bashing out the words Enthusiast, Gricer, Froth etc on your keyboard, go back and read what I said properly as I have with done with what you've said. At no point have I suggested go in all guns blazing at whatever cost to the railway.

Nearly 30 years ago now I was heavily involved with a steam railway that nearly went to the wall due to overstretching itself by reconnecting to the mainline.
I know a little of what I talk about here.
Thirty years ago the requirements re carriage door locks for running over "mainline" trackage did not exist. Neither did other safety systems which have to be incorporated when running over Network Rail lines. Even those places where the connection is merely an end on one will incur some expense for the normal spasmodic use.

Whatever the length or focus of any given tourist railway, wishful thought does not pay the bills.
 

Gostav

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I often visited GCR and found that through their double track and perfect signalling they can running express train and local train at every galas, so some visitors can enjoy a short journey, but for most heritage railways: full single line section; simple token signalling system; no halfway station have additional siding for local train. That means run a complex timetable would be more difficult.
 

Peter C

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Thirty years ago the requirements re carriage door locks for running over "mainline" trackage did not exist. Neither did other safety systems which have to be incorporated when running over Network Rail lines. Even those places where the connection is merely an end on one will incur some expense for the normal spasmodic use.

Whatever the length or focus of any given tourist railway, wishful thought does not pay the bills.

I think you'll find that the NYMR, which has been running to Whitby (over mainline metals) for many years now, has managed to do this very well and the safety systems have been implemented in such a way that it does not affect your experience when you travel on it.
Also, may I suggest that the only reason that you started moaning about this is because a track connection requires safety systems that the heritage lines can't afford? If you think that a "cross-platform interchange" is alright, then why not a track connection?* By only having a platform interchange, you render the whole extension relatively useless from the operational side of things; if the GWSR were to extend to Honeybourne, it could be used as a very easy way of moving stock about. Imagine how hard it is for the GWSR to get a loco there at the moment. They have to move it by road and getting it down to the station at Toddington is nigh impossible; have you been there and seen the tight roads and gaps? Driving a lorry large enough to hold an engine to pretty much any GWSR station would be extremely difficult.

Does the cost of a track connection with Network Rail justify the cost? Well, if it means Tornado/Flying Jackpot/6233/60009 can arrive by rail for a high-profile gala that brings the railway tens of thousands of £ that it might not otherwise have had, I’d imagine they would say so, yes. I am told that getting some visiting locos in can cost five figures in transport fees let alone hire/steaming fees - plus all the arrangements with the police etc.

I know Keighley is a little different as their connection to NR was never really removed, but would they be able to hire 41001 and 6 mk3 coaches if they all had to arrive by road? Or a couple of years ago, when for some months the local road infrastructure couldn’t support visiting locos being brought into Haworth, the connection was the only way a visiting loco could arrive.

It’s not right for every line, but for some it can open up a whole new market - for tourists, not just enthusiasts.
/\ Excellent point! I'm not too knowledgeable on Keighley, but I know that even the public would be interested in the arrival of the Flying Scotsman at Toddington. If you think back to when she came back into service, you'd remember that the media wouldn't stop giving her, and the line she was running on, attention!
Also, on the point of the connection being removed, surely it would be alright for the railway to reinstate a connection if it had already been built but then removed?

*(Also, the GWSR would not connect with Network Rail at Honeybourne directly; it would connect to the freight-only branch to Long Marston, which connects to Network Rail.)
 
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I think you'll find that the NYMR, which has been running to Whitby (over mainline metals) for many years now, has managed to do this very well and the safety systems have been implemented in such a way that it does not affect your experience when you travel on it.
Also, may I suggest that the only reason that you started moaning about this is because a track connection requires safety systems that the heritage lines can't afford? If you think that a "cross-platform interchange" is alright, then why not a track connection?* By only having a platform interchange, you render the whole extension relatively useless from the operational side of things; if the GWSR were to extend to Honeybourne, it could be used as a very easy way of moving stock about. Imagine how hard it is for the GWSR to get a loco there at the moment. They have to move it by road and getting it down to the station at Toddington is nigh impossible; have you been there and seen the tight roads and gaps? Driving a lorry large enough to hold an engine to pretty much any GWSR station would be extremely difficult.


/\ Excellent point! I'm not too knowledgeable on Keighley, but I know that even the public would be interested in the arrival of the Flying Scotsman at Toddington. If you think back to when she came back into service, you'd remember that the media wouldn't stop giving her, and the line she was running on, attention!
Also, on the point of the connection being removed, surely it would be alright for the railway to reinstate a connection if it had already been built but then removed?

*(Also, the GWSR would not connect with Network Rail at Honeybourne directly; it would connect to the freight-only branch to Long Marston, which connects to Network Rail.)

Regret this is still romantic "Wouldn't it be nice" stuff. I am fully aware about the N.Y.M.R. running into Whitby. I am also aware of the full adult fare being in excess of £30, no doubt because of the costs of running over Network Rail. Good they can get this sort of fare. Not everywhere can.
 

johnnychips

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I’m certainly not an expert on this sort of thing but it is noticeable that the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway deem it unnecessary to have a link to the main line at Duffield even though it is only about 200 yards, and find it presumably cheaper to bring in visiting locos etc by road.
 

43096

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Pldngy of wishful thought being put up on this thread in support of extension projects etc.
I am largely with you in what you have said on this thread - far too many fantasy schemes that are just not viable.

However, main line connections are very much "it depends". For example the GCR(N)'s connection with NR at Loughborough is absolutely vital to the railway as it brings commercial freight in to the gypsum plant at Hotchley Hill.

For those suggesting commuter services on heritage railways, this is real pie-in-the-sky stuff. Why? Well:
- line speeds of 25-30mph are not going to make for a competitive running time compared with other transport modes.
- how do you resource it? You can't rely on volunteer labour every weekday to make a service operate reliably.
- what stock are you using? Mark 1s and first generation DMUs are not going to be attractive to potential users used to buses, let alone cars with air-conditioning and comfortable seats. Even if you buy a Pacer or two, it's still not an attractive proposition.
- there's a reason the majority of lines closed in the first place: not enough passengers.
 

reddragon

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The GWSR is about 3 miles from Network Rail at Honeybourne 'junction' and that land is owned by sustrans and contains several bridges requiring considerable costly work doing. A further 2 miles of track bed along Network Rail Land have been left, with some track still in situ, for the GWSR to reach Honeybourne Station, without affecting the Long Marston track. It will require a platform edge and a run around loop using the freight track, so signal interfaces. It is unlikely that volunteers could do much of the work on this section, unless fully trained to NR standards or suitably managed & supervised by a competent contractor.

This extension is entirely doable economically in stages over several years, first making the main Line connection, then reaching the station and finally a run around loop.

To be operationally viable, is another matter. Today Honeybourne is a small halt with a light passenger service, mostly at peak times. With the development of Long Marston, a better London to Worcester connection it could become viable and if the Stratford link was built it would be very viable.

The railway started out as most do as an attraction, gaining a wider public appeal as it developed, but now provides real travel as well. Cheltenham Racecourse Station is right next to the main stands, closer than the car parks, the helipads and the VIP drop off point, so punters can be on the train within 5 mins of the last race and out of there in no time traffic free instead of several hours jammed in Cheltenham.

Last year, considerable numbers of journeys originated from Cheltenham for a day out in Broadway, where parking is a big problem. Only insufficient numbers of volunteers to run an earlier / later train held back growth. Herein is the issue, the railway has peaked volunteer wise in its ability to runs services without paid staff and does not intend to do so. A DMU shuttle from Honeybourne to Broadway might work, maybe a through service from elsewhere could work commercially.

A main line connection in itself would be a nice to have and will happen eventually, maybe I'll live to see it in action!
 

Llanigraham

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I notice that the Branch Line Society visited the South Devon Railway this evening via their Network Rail connection. Perhaps the SDR signalman should've locked the gate and hidden behind a strategically placed milk churn until they went away?

But they are railway fanatics, and not the "general public"!

Last year I visited several railways, both standard and narrow gauge, and many of those had connections with the "big railway". Not one of them did I travel by train to get there, for several reasons:
  • it was too expensive
  • it was inconvenient
  • it didn't fit in with the other railway's timetable
  • it took too long
  • I wanted more comfort on the journey there and back
  • the friends I was with didn't want to
  • it was raining
  • it was too hot

And my observations whilst on these visits was that very few others travelled by train, but came either on organised coach tours or in the majority by car. Perhaps that is why many railways are building or improving their car parking facilities.
 

Llanigraham

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Probably one of the most successful tourist lines in the country is the Dartmouth line. It is just seven miles but has, arguably, the best scenery (sea and river) of any line. It principal function -apart from a ride in a steam train - is to get people from the Torbay area to Dartmouth and the boats trips on the river. Local also use the line in the summer, despite their being a Stagecoach bus service. It is probably what the GWR, had it survived nationalisation in 1948, would now look like. Tourist/heritage lines operate in the present time and whilst structures can adequately reflect the past present day operations demand something different. .
The principal problem, it seems to me, is for many tourist/heritage managements lines being encouraged - sometimes pressurized - into extensions, which are basically not affordable (pie in the sky) and seen with a high degree of nostalgia rather than business acumen.

You also have to remember that this line now owns the boats that ply between Dartmouth and Totnes, and for which in the summer high season you have to book well in advance plus several old buses to ply between Totnes and Paignton.
 

Llanigraham

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Imagine how hard it is for the GWSR to get a loco there at the moment. They have to move it by road and getting it down to the station at Toddington is nigh impossible; have you been there and seen the tight roads and gaps? Driving a lorry large enough to hold an engine to pretty much any GWSR station would be extremely difficult.

Funny but the Llangollen seem to manage, even to the extent of having locos just brought in for repair, and I would suggest that their access is far worse than at Toddington.
 

Bedpan

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By only having a platform interchange, you render the whole extension relatively useless from the operational side of things; if the GWSR were to extend to Honeybourne, it could be used as a very easy way of moving stock about. Imagine how hard it is for the GWSR to get a loco there at the moment. They have to move it by road and getting it down to the station at Toddington is nigh impossible; have you been there and seen the tight roads and gaps? Driving a lorry large enough to hold an engine to pretty much any GWSR station would be extremely difficult.
How did the locos now at the railway get there in the first place?

(This is not to say that I wouldn't support a connection at Honeybourne).
 

Peter C

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How did the locos now at the railway get there in the first place?

(This is not to say that I wouldn't support a connection at Honeybourne).
Fair point. But I'd bet that it was a jolly difficult situation!
Having a connection at Honeybourne would make everything so much easier for the railway. It could open up lots of possibilities.
 

Peter C

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Funny but the Llangollen seem to manage, even to the extent of having locos just brought in for repair, and I would suggest that their access is far worse than at Toddington.

Oh ok. I still stand by my idea of having a Honeybourne connection would make life so much easier for everyone.
 

Peter C

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I may have already posted this link, but I think that content gives you an idea of how good a link could be:
http://everythinggwr.com/2015/03/and-after-broadway-where-next/

May I also suggest that a connection at Honeybourne could lead to some very interesting galas? If you think about it, a train could come from the SVR, run down the line to Worcester Shrub Hill, and then run down to Toddington via Honeybourne. The SVR, or other railways, definitely have other rolling stock and different types of rolling stock to Toddington; surely I can't be the only one who would like Toddington to get more media coverage by having a famous loco from somewhere else come in for a gala?
 

4141

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surely I can't be the only one who would like Toddington to get more media coverage by having a famous loco from somewhere else come in for a gala?
What, like the "King" which was there last summer, and publicised extensively?
 
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I may have already posted this link, but I think that content gives you an idea of how good a link could be:
http://everythinggwr.com/2015/03/and-after-broadway-where-next/

May I also suggest that a connection at Honeybourne could lead to some very interesting galas? If you think about it, a train could come from the SVR, run down the line to Worcester Shrub Hill, and then run down to Toddington via Honeybourne. The SVR, or other railways, definitely have other rolling stock and different types of rolling stock to Toddington; surely I can't be the only one who would like Toddington to get more media coverage by having a famous loco from somewhere else come in for a gala?
Galas yet again!
 

Steptoe

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When the Mid-Norfolk purchased their line much agonising took place over the annual fee which had to be paid to BR/Network to maintain the existing mainline connection as it was a sum which wasn't covered by the low income at that time. Fortunately the directors at that time kept the agreement on as the subsequent signalling upgrade of the Norwich to Brandon line included the connection but was effectively foc to the MNR. The cost of restoring it now would be prohibitive.

The connection has since been useful for engineering moves, RHTT servicing, charter layovers, and most recently, the GA storage project and now easily earns its keep!
 

Brush 4

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The MNR rightly took the longer term view and are now reaping the various opportunities it is providing. Reconnecting is far more expensive and bureaucratically complicated so if you already have one, keep it!
Testing and storage of modern stock is just one of the benefits. 'The connection has since been useful for engineering moves, RHTT servicing, charter layovers, and most recently, the GA storage project and now easily earns its keep!'
Also, through trains, loco movements, connecting services, possible freight (Minehead) None of the lines will be able to take advantage of all of these but, they can't take advantage of any of them if they are isolated, both physically and metaphorically.
 
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But they are railway fanatics, and not the "general public"!

Last year I visited several railways, both standard and narrow gauge, and many of those had connections with the "big railway". Not one of them did I travel by train to get there, for several reasons:
  • it was too expensive
  • it was inconvenient
  • it didn't fit in with the other railway's timetable
  • it took too long
  • I wanted more comfort on the journey there and back
  • the friends I was with didn't want to
  • it was raining
  • it was too hot

And my observations whilst on these visits was that very few others travelled by train, but came either on organised coach tours or in the majority by car. Perhaps that is why many railways are building or improving their car parking facilities.
Seconded
 

alexl92

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But they are railway fanatics, and not the "general public"!

Last year I visited several railways, both standard and narrow gauge, and many of those had connections with the "big railway". Not one of them did I travel by train to get there, for several reasons:
  • it was too expensive
  • it was inconvenient
  • it didn't fit in with the other railway's timetable
  • it took too long
  • I wanted more comfort on the journey there and back
  • the friends I was with didn't want to
  • it was raining
  • it was too hot

And my observations whilst on these visits was that very few others travelled by train, but came either on organised coach tours or in the majority by car. Perhaps that is why many railways are building or improving their car parking facilities.

All fair points. Honestly tho, the biggest reason why I’d drive isn’t any of the above - it’s the ridiculous lack of parking at any stations local to me, or where there is parking, it’s just prohibitively expensive.
 

43096

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I may have already posted this link, but I think that content gives you an idea of how good a link could be:
http://everythinggwr.com/2015/03/and-after-broadway-where-next/

May I also suggest that a connection at Honeybourne could lead to some very interesting galas? If you think about it, a train could come from the SVR, run down the line to Worcester Shrub Hill, and then run down to Toddington via Honeybourne. The SVR, or other railways, definitely have other rolling stock and different types of rolling stock to Toddington; surely I can't be the only one who would like Toddington to get more media coverage by having a famous loco from somewhere else come in for a gala?
Usual enthusiast dreaming, I'm afraid. Castle hauled specials for race days? Really? Even diesel railtours for race days aren't going to make much money - the distance on the GWSR would be short so the track access payable would be pretty small - try to hike it and the cost per ticket goes higher. Commuter services - see my previous post above as to why not.

Just pie-in-the-sky fantasy railways.

These are businesses, and there needs to be a sound business case for doing such things - otherwise they're just a financial black hole.
 

Peter C

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The MNR rightly took the longer term view and are now reaping the various opportunities it is providing. Reconnecting is far more expensive and bureaucratically complicated so if you already have one, keep it!
Testing and storage of modern stock is just one of the benefits. 'The connection has since been useful for engineering moves, RHTT servicing, charter layovers, and most recently, the GA storage project and now easily earns its keep!'
Also, through trains, loco movements, connecting services, possible freight (Minehead) None of the lines will be able to take advantage of all of these but, they can't take advantage of any of them if they are isolated, both physically and metaphorically.

Exactly what I think! If these railways stay isolated, it limits the possibilities for what they can do. Also, it would bring more people in to the railway. I can only imagine as to how many people don't currently go to the GWSR purely because it's not the easiest place to get to. I'm sure that a mainline link, even if it is just a cross-platform interchange (Paul Hitchcock), would bring in plenty of people to the railway.

Usual enthusiast dreaming, I'm afraid. Castle hauled specials for race days? Really? Even diesel railtours for race days aren't going to make much money - the distance on the GWSR would be short so the track access payable would be pretty small - try to hike it and the cost per ticket goes higher. Commuter services - see my previous post above as to why not.

Just pie-in-the-sky fantasy railways.

These are businesses, and there needs to be a sound business case for doing such things - otherwise they're just a financial black hole.
I think you'll find that the GWSR ran multiple trains, of both DMU and steam varieties, specifically for the race days. Enough people used those services that they managed to make a fair bit of money off of it, I bet. If an "important" engine was to visit, I'm sure that it would be used for more high profile railway enthusiast events, such as galas.

But they are railway fanatics, and not the "general public"!

Last year I visited several railways, both standard and narrow gauge, and many of those had connections with the "big railway". Not one of them did I travel by train to get there, for several reasons:
  • it was too expensive
  • it was inconvenient
  • it didn't fit in with the other railway's timetable
  • it took too long
  • I wanted more comfort on the journey there and back
  • the friends I was with didn't want to
  • it was raining
  • it was too hot

And my observations whilst on these visits was that very few others travelled by train, but came either on organised coach tours or in the majority by car. Perhaps that is why many railways are building or improving their car parking facilities.
I think you'll find that this is just your opinion and experience. Not everyone's experiences are like this; I visited the SVR last year, by train, and the day worked perfectly fine! Yes, many still choose to drive, but the number of people who will use the railway in years to come will eventually pay for the extension.
 

reddragon

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I think you'll find that the GWSR ran multiple trains, of both DMU and steam varieties, specifically for the race days. Enough people used those services that they managed to make a fair bit of money off of it, I bet. If an "important" engine was to visit, I'm sure that it would be used for more high profile railway enthusiast events, such as galas

Indeed, for 4 days in March, 2 steam hauled packed 8 coach trains run from Toddington to Cheltenham RC and on the Gold Cup day, a 3rd Steam hauled train is running from Broadway to Cheltenham RC connecting to a special from Paddington.

Not a Castle, but a Hall, Manor & Bullied
 

Peter C

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The GWSR is about 3 miles from Network Rail at Honeybourne 'junction' and that land is owned by sustrans and contains several bridges requiring considerable costly work doing. A further 2 miles of track bed along Network Rail Land have been left, with some track still in situ, for the GWSR to reach Honeybourne Station, without affecting the Long Marston track. It will require a platform edge and a run around loop using the freight track, so signal interfaces. It is unlikely that volunteers could do much of the work on this section, unless fully trained to NR standards or suitably managed & supervised by a competent contractor.

This extension is entirely doable economically in stages over several years, first making the main Line connection, then reaching the station and finally a run around loop.

To be operationally viable, is another matter. Today Honeybourne is a small halt with a light passenger service, mostly at peak times. With the development of Long Marston, a better London to Worcester connection it could become viable and if the Stratford link was built it would be very viable.

The railway started out as most do as an attraction, gaining a wider public appeal as it developed, but now provides real travel as well. Cheltenham Racecourse Station is right next to the main stands, closer than the car parks, the helipads and the VIP drop off point, so punters can be on the train within 5 mins of the last race and out of there in no time traffic free instead of several hours jammed in Cheltenham.

Last year, considerable numbers of journeys originated from Cheltenham for a day out in Broadway, where parking is a big problem. Only insufficient numbers of volunteers to run an earlier / later train held back growth. Herein is the issue, the railway has peaked volunteer wise in its ability to runs services without paid staff and does not intend to do so. A DMU shuttle from Honeybourne to Broadway might work, maybe a through service from elsewhere could work commercially.

A main line connection in itself would be a nice to have and will happen eventually, maybe I'll live to see it in action!

Thank you! If those reading this remember back to when the GWSR were building their extension to Broadway, you'll know that they built it slowly, in stages. Building an extension to Honeybourne could be done in very much the same way; it will make sure that the extension could be done.
On the subject of the Race Course trains, I agree again!
Think about it; each care driven to the racecourse takes up space. That's obvious. And I'd bet that most of these four-seater cars are only carrying two people. The train, which moves an awful lot more people per journey, can keep transporting people throughout the whole day! A car moves people twice; to the racecourse, and from the racecourse. The train is so much more efficient.
 

Peter C

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Indeed, for 4 days in March, 2 steam hauled packed 8 coach trains run from Toddington to Cheltenham RC and on the Gold Cup day, a 3rd Steam hauled train is running from Broadway to Cheltenham RC connecting to a special from Paddington.

Not a Castle, but a Hall, Manor & Bullied

Yes! These trains were packed. May I propose the idea that if they extended south, to Cheltenham, the connection could be easier; the passengers almost certainly had to change for a bus.
 
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