Power / USB sockets reliability

johntea · 4 Feb 2019

How come power and/or USB sockets on trains often so unreliable or hit and miss?

This morning I’m on a Northern (ex ScotRail) 170 and found only the sockets in the back carriage of the 3 working, only for them to suddenly stop working halfway through the journey!

I’ve also had similar on LNER where only certain carriages seem to be ‘live’, it can be slightly annoying when you have a long journey ahead and not a lot of juice!

RailUK Forums

Ih8earlies · 4 Feb 2019

A circuit breaker may have tripped out for a variety of reasons.

They don't get reset unless someone tells the traincrew and it gets reported to the appropriate maintenance person.

Few passengers actually bother to report they're not working in my experience.

ValleyLines142 · 4 Feb 2019

GWR 158766s sockets haven't worked for quite some time. Had it on a Weymouth service back in August and they weren't working then. Had it last week and they still weren't working!

gordonthemoron · 4 Feb 2019

USB sockets on TrentBarton buses have been known to fry smartphones

cambsy · 4 Feb 2019

I have had same problem too, on trains and coaches etc, its normally someone trying to power hair straighteners etc which trip the circuit breakers etc, meaning no USB/Power sockets, I now have a power bank which last couple of days, cost about 20 from Amazon, it fairly weighty and largeish, but there small ones last few hours to large ones for few days, so don’t need worry bout sockets etc anymore.

robbeech · 4 Feb 2019

I’m always a little careful with usb sockets as you never really know what kind of voltage regulation is going on. If it’s been done on the cheap you may end up with a reduction in battery life from using them. No doubt the regulations for installation of them won’t be strict either. I’d much sooner use a 13A socket with my own adaptor of known origin and certification. The rules on supplying mains voltage into the passenger compartment will be strict enough that the most cost effective way will meet the minimum safety standards. With usb it is unlikely to be that strict and whilst there is unlikely to be any immediate safety concerns, the quality of the voltage output can serious affect battery life of some devices.

squizzler · 4 Feb 2019

I'm hoping that the next generation of trains offer customers a choice of USB-C. These are the connectors that the latest smartphones, tablets and even apple laptops are moving towards. Much more powerful - and therefore faster charging - than the traditional USB-A, and with the added advantage the plug can be inserted either side up. Given the time it took for all passenger trains to standardise on Dellner couplings I won't hold my breath

In response to the original question, I think the reliability of USB power should improve as it moves away from being a novelty to a basic expectation in public transport.

James James · 4 Feb 2019

squizzler said:
I'm hoping that the next generation of trains offer customers a choice of USB-C. These are the connectors that the latest smartphones, tablets and even apple laptops are moving towards. Much more powerful - and therefore faster charging - than the traditional USB-A, and with the added advantage the plug can be inserted either side up. Given the time it took for all passenger trains to standardise on Dellner couplings I won't hold my breath

In response to the original question, I think the reliability of USB power should improve as it moves away from being a novelty to a basic expectation in public transport.

They're starting to build trains with inductive charging pads for phones, so I doubt they're going to bother with USB-C, at least until every single smartphone and laptop is built with it. (Easier just to let people bring their own chargers for the laptops now.)

anamyd · 4 Feb 2019

The 3-pin-only sockets on the 24 Transport for Wales 158s are "hit and miss" 7-8 years after having been fitted. Some of them work, some of them don't and some of them have plug pins stuck in them. I think they are due to be replaced by the 3-pin plus twin USB plates like on 150-285 (and the rest of their PRM + power socket modded 150/2s including 284 and the other 34 to follow) and also fitted in the "airline" bays and not just at the tables, so they will be like what GWR's 158-950 had when I went on that. I believe the 27 175s wil also be fitted with power sockets under TfW as they don't have any at all due to never having had a major refurbishment and their new trains are still a few years away.

47271 · 5 Feb 2019

You were very lucky to get any power sockets at all in an ex Scotrail 170. The first batch in the Saltire internal refurb from 2013 onwards didn't have them fitted, and still have nothing.

Scotrail 158s have three pin sockets down one side and USBs on the other. Whilst the 170s are generally pretty reliable, the 158s got off to a bad start and even now can be patchy - more often than not they don't work. I had one USB a while ago that did work, but was so feeble that use of my phone (which is new and doesn't suffer battery problems) was consuming more juice than than the charger was delivering!

Like the man says, best carry your own supply.

R G NOW. · 5 Feb 2019

I noticed that the charging current for an I-pad is higher than an I- phone. The charger with my I pad is slightly bigger. And on my desk at home, there is a double socket containing two usb sockets. 1 is labeled phone and one labelled I-pad/tablet. Upon reading the leatflet with the socket, that the output volts and current is slightly higher. Would the ones on trains be wired properly to output the right currents.

jon0844 · 5 Feb 2019

Surely most phones have USB-C (bar very entry level models but they'll switch this year). Even Apple will likely switch. USB-PD is ideal for phones, many modern laptops and the Nintendo Switch.

Give it another 12 months and I think most products will have it.

More accessories are coming with USB-C right now as well.

Emblematic · 5 Feb 2019

Most low-power devices can still charge from the near-ubiquitous type A socket, whether they have micro USB B, type C, or something else. I don't expect the operators to chase the latest standards when the existing sockets work for must users - give it a decade and it may change. I'm only aware of one mains+USB socket on the market with USB C fast charging, and it's not cheap (it also has USB A as that's what most people need today.)

mallard · 5 Feb 2019

USB-A (the 3.0 version with extra pins, usually blue) and USB-C are electrically identical. Both can provide up to 100W of power. Upgrading to USB-A 3.0 provides the best of both worlds, being back-compatible with older devices while still being able to charge newer devices at the higher rate.

Note however, that providing more than 900mA (4.5W) over USB (3.0) is entirely optional, via supplementary standards (the USB Battery Charging Specification for up to 7.5W and the USB Power Delivery Specification for up to 100W). Considering that TOCs only include these sockets to add a checkmark to their marketing material, I doubt they'd fit anything other than the most basic of power supplies.

squizzler · 5 Feb 2019

I think that the provision of USB-A or USB-C should favour the newer standard because the service life of trains is so long. If you specify a new train right now you should go with USB-C because when it comes into service in a couple of years time that will be the default that everybody will have, never mind ten years after that when it might go in for refurbishment.

Is there any research in likelihood of damage to either connector type in public transport environment? Intuition might say the chunkier USB-A will be more robust, but the advantage of type-C is that you can't break it by forcing the plug in the wrong way round (there is no wrong way round!), and the smaller port will perhaps leave it less vulnerable to vandalism from people stuffing foreign objects into the socket.

Sockets should use the high power standard, because as pointed out earlier in this thread the low power devices will increasingly use inductive charging.

krus_aragon · 5 Feb 2019

squizzler said:
I think that the provision of USB-A or USB-C should favour the newer standard because the service life of trains is so long. If you specify a new train right now you should go with USB-C because when it comes into service in a couple of years time that will be the default that everybody will have, never mind ten years after that when it might go in for refurbishment.

Is USB-C used at the charger end of any charging cables? I'm only familiar with it's use at the device end. (You presumably expect passengers to bring their own cables, instead of having cables permanently dangling from the train walls.)

The obvious choice at the charger end would be between old USB-A and USB-A v3.0. (See here.)

Edit: a search on Amazon shows me some wall-wart chargers with USB-C sockets on them. So yes, it seems they are on their way in.

atraindriver · 5 Feb 2019

jon0844 · 5 Feb 2019

USB-C has been around for about three years now? Maybe longer? I think it's worth adopting now and would imagine panels having a USB-A port for legacy devices and USB-C capable of fast charging.

By all means have a 3 pin plug too (or the hotel type universal adapter style) but I'd prefer to carry just a cable, so everyone would be happy.

atraindriver · 5 Feb 2019

JohnMcL7 · 5 Feb 2019

R G NOW. said:
I noticed that the charging current for an I-pad is higher than an I- phone. The charger with my I pad is slightly bigger. And on my desk at home, there is a double socket containing two usb sockets. 1 is labeled phone and one labelled I-pad/tablet. Upon reading the leatflet with the socket, that the output volts and current is slightly higher. Would the ones on trains be wired properly to output the right currents.

Devices will draw the amount of current they require and will still function if the USB connection is providing more current than they require and furthermore some devices do require a higher current to charge. Your iphone needs less current to charge than your ipad which is why the ports are labelled up as they are because if you put your ipad into the phone one and the phone into the ipad one, your phone will be fine as it will use the higher current to charge faster but the ipad won't charge as it won't be enough current. Both ports should be the same 5V voltage.

I can plug my phone into my 65W laptop charger which would blow the phone to pieces if it drew that amount of power but it just draws what it needs.

JohnMcL7 · 5 Feb 2019

jon0844 said:
USB-C has been around for about three years now? Maybe longer? I think it's worth adopting now and would imagine panels having a USB-A port for legacy devices and USB-C capable of fast charging.

By all means have a 3 pin plug too (or the hotel type universal adapter style) but I'd prefer to carry just a cable, so everyone would be happy.

You don't need separate ports for that, a single USB-A port can do both as it can support the USB 3.1 standard and it can support legacy devices as well.

dgl · 5 Feb 2019

The only time a standard USB plug should have more than ~5V coming out of it is when the extra voltage has been negotiated with the device, Samsung USB chargers can do this and as such will output either 5V or 9V. USB-C is the same, 5V only unless the device allows and has told it to use a higher voltage.

Adlington · 5 Feb 2019

squizzler said:
I'm hoping that the next generation of trains offer customers a choice of USB-C. These are the connectors that the latest smartphones, tablets and even apple laptops are moving towards.

The only difference is at the smartphone/laptop/tablet end. The other connector, the one you put into the charging socket is the same as the 'old' USB.

jon0844 · 5 Feb 2019

JohnMcL7 said:
You don't need separate ports for that, a single USB-A port can do both as it can support the USB 3.1 standard and it can support legacy devices as well.

Yes, but USB-C to USB-C cables are getting more common so you'll likely not have a USB-A to C cable in the future.

WatcherZero · 5 Feb 2019

jon0844 said:
Surely most phones have USB-C (bar very entry level models but they'll switch this year). Even Apple will likely switch. USB-PD is ideal for phones, many modern laptops and the Nintendo Switch.

Give it another 12 months and I think most products will have it.

More accessories are coming with USB-C right now as well.

Nah Apple will never switch, why go for an open format where people could use any peripheral when you have your own format forcing people to buy products built or licensed by you?

Agent_Squash · 5 Feb 2019

Adlington said:
The only difference is at the smartphone/laptop/tablet end. The other connector, the one you put into the charging socket is the same as the 'old' USB.

This is not the case.

Most USB devices on trains are USB 2.0, and don't support USB Power Delivery.

WatcherZero said:
Nah Apple will never switch, why go for an open format where people could use any peripheral when you have your own format forcing people to buy products built or licensed by you?

I'm using a MacBook Pro right now with only USB C + a single headphone jack (shocking that's still there tbh)

Peter C · 5 Feb 2019

I was on a Turbostar (GWR) the other day and the USB points just didn't work. But I think that the Turbos may be reaching the end of their lives, anyway....

JohnMcL7 · 5 Feb 2019

jon0844 said:
Yes, but USB-C to USB-C cables are getting more common so you'll likely not have a USB-A to C cable in the future.

They may be getting more common but there's still vastly more USB-A ports and will be for a while yet (unless you use Apple products). Outwith tablets/phones/laptops etc. USB-C adoption has been very, very slow and many companies even big ones like Amazon are still launching new products with micro USB.

John

samuelmorris · 5 Feb 2019

The sockets on Renatus 321s were so bad they were removed, but the stickers advertising them remain!

Mag_seven · 5 Feb 2019

Peter C said:
But I think that the Turbos may be reaching the end of their lives, anyway....

I would hope not - they are being cascaded to other GWR routes!

Power / USB sockets reliability

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