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Hull Trains HST

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7522

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Surprised this HST will be in use on a regular diagram rather than as a spare. I understand the 180's probably need more time for maintenance however the HST is too long for the platform at Howden so will not be able to stop there and will cause inconvenience to Howden passengers. This information from a tweet by Hull Trains a few days ago which I now cannot find unfortunately.
 
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cactustwirly

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Surprised this HST will be in use on a regular diagram rather than as a spare. I understand the 180's probably need more time for maintenance however the HST is too long for the platform at Howden so will not be able to stop there and will cause inconvenience to Howden passengers. This information from a tweet by Hull Trains a few days ago which I now cannot find unfortunately.

GWR HSTs are fitted with SDO, so it shouldn't be a problem!
 

yorksrob

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so what if it blocks the crossing. Motorists can wait (it's not as though the said crossing is that busy to start off with).

If it's true that they won't be able to stop at Howden because of this, it beggars belief.
 

ainsworth74

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Surprised this HST will be in use on a regular diagram rather than as a spare.

I would argue the reverse. If it's not going to be possible to call at a station when this train is used its far better that it's on a fixed diagram so Hull Trains can warn people in plenty of time that the train will not call and the alternative arrangements are therefore xyz. Rather than having to rush the information out on the fly and trying to run around and arrange alternative transport quickly rather than just setting up a temporary contract with a local taxi firm.
 

apinnard

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So from what it obviously sounds like is after leaving Doncaster getting up to 125 is taking it's toll on the unreliable engines causing them to fail?

The engines themselves aren't particularly unreliable. The same engine type is used in many other D(E)MU fleets quite successfully. Indeed, Etches Park seem to be able to stop theirs from spontaneously combusting or falling off seemingly with ease.

The issue is maintenance, or lack thereof. It has been implied from various sources that the maintenance function isn't as good as that on other fleets with the same engine type. Whether that is to do with knowledge, spares availability, incorrect processes, for example, is probably something the general public wont find out about.
 

221129

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The engines themselves aren't particularly unreliable. The same engine type is used in many other D(E)MU fleets quite successfully. Indeed, Etches Park seem to be able to stop theirs from spontaneously combusting or falling off seemingly with ease.

The issue is maintenance, or lack thereof. It has been implied from various sources that the maintenance function isn't as good as that on other fleets with the same engine type. Whether that is to do with knowledge, spares availability, incorrect processes, for example, is probably something the general public wont find out about.
Tbf Crofton depot seem to be hopeless of late.
 

Ben Bow

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TPE's 07.38/40 Hull-Manchester has been booked 6 cars for years, firstly with 170's, then 185's and has always called at Howden. On both types of unit the doors on the rear vehicle (only) are locked out of use by the guard, no SDO or UDB is used. The principle problem is that the crossing is the only pedestrian access from the car park to the up platform, so once the barriers are down, which can be several minutes before the train arrives, passengers can not get to the train. Regular travellers are aware of this, but it does catch out the occasional late comer.
 

SC43090

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One reason why it might not be able to stop at Howden is Grand farther rights... If its not had loco hauled or HST services stopping there in the past it as not got grand farther rights..... Also if its not had slam door stock for many a long year it also might have something to do with not been able to stop at Howden... Look what Scotrail had to go through to get slam door HSTs into service in Scotland they had to get special dispensation to use HSTs...... If anybody knows differently then please post what they might know......

SC 43090
 

221129

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One reason why it might not be able to stop at Howden is Grand farther rights... If its not had loco hauled or HST services stopping there in the past it as not got grand farther rights..... Also if its not had slam door stock for many a long year it also might have something to do with not been able to stop at Howden... Look what Scotrail had to go through to get slam door HSTs into service in Scotland they had to get special dispensation to use HSTs...... If anybody knows differently then please post what they might know......

SC 43090
Grandfather rights only applies to non SDO stock I thought. As this set has SDO it shouldn't be an issue.
 

yorksrob

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One reason why it might not be able to stop at Howden is Grand farther rights... If its not had loco hauled or HST services stopping there in the past it as not got grand farther rights..... Also if its not had slam door stock for many a long year it also might have something to do with not been able to stop at Howden... Look what Scotrail had to go through to get slam door HSTs into service in Scotland they had to get special dispensation to use HSTs...... If anybody knows differently then please post what they might know......

SC 43090

The person who comes up with all these restrictions shouuld be strapped to the front of an HST in the manner of the confederate spy in 'The Good, The Bad And The Ugly'.
 

nat67

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I would argue the reverse. If it's not going to be possible to call at a station when this train is used its far better that it's on a fixed diagram so Hull Trains can warn people in plenty of time that the train will not call and the alternative arrangements are therefore xyz. Rather than having to rush the information out on the fly and trying to run around and arrange alternative transport quickly rather than just setting up a temporary contract with a local taxi firm.
I would put the HST on a decent diagram. So it starts from Hull and ends at Hull doing 3 round trips to make use of it.
 

43096

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I would put the HST on a decent diagram. So it starts from Hull and ends at Hull doing 3 round trips to make use of it.
Probably a good thing you’re not doing the diagramming. Have a look at the timetable and work out a diagram!
 

nat67

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Probably a good thing you’re not doing the diagramming. Have a look at the timetable and work out a diagram!
Ok two round trips. I did try workout how long it takes for a 180 to do Hull-KGX and back.
 

VT 390

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The issue at Howden is the level crossing, anything longer than 5 coaches would block it
But there are other stations which have a level crossing next to them which sometimes get blocked by a train stopping there.
 

cactustwirly

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My money's on the following diagram:

0823 HUL - KGX 1108
1148 KGX - HUL 1417
1512 HUL - KGX 1747
1848 KGX - BEV 2144
2151 BEV - HUL ECS

The other 2 diagrams involve stabling at Bounds Green TMD
 

Ianno87

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But there are other stations which have a level crossing next to them which sometimes get blocked by a train stopping there.

That may be the case, but each time it is done at a new location, it is a newly added safety risk to that location. For example, evem if level crossing users 'can wait', knowing they're now going to be delayed for an extended period of time may make some people more likely to weave the closing barriers, or pedestrians jump the barriers after they have shut.

Barrier/gate closure times are a significant factor in the overall safety risk assessment of a crossing.
 

rjchapma

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My money's on the following diagram:

0823 HUL - KGX 1108
1148 KGX - HUL 1417
1512 HUL - KGX 1747
1848 KGX - BEV 2144
2151 BEV - HUL ECS

The other 2 diagrams involve stabling at Bounds Green TMD
I dont think the HST is ordinarily cleared to Beverley, so it probably wont do all of that diagram.
 

nat67

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43190+43165 have returned home to Bristol for maintenance. It's only done a few training runs. Plus 43190 dropped all its coolant apparently.
 

yorksrob

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That may be the case, but each time it is done at a new location, it is a newly added safety risk to that location. For example, evem if level crossing users 'can wait', knowing they're now going to be delayed for an extended period of time may make some people more likely to weave the closing barriers, or pedestrians jump the barriers after they have shut.

Barrier/gate closure times are a significant factor in the overall safety risk assessment of a crossing.

So basically passengers have to be inconvenienced because motorists can't be trusted to drive properly.

What strikes me is that this situation can't be rare across the country and the risk increase must be limited. Are NR allowed to take a nuanced view, balancing increased risk against passenger improvements, or is there now a blanket ban on any enhancement that increases the risk of any given level crossing ?
 

brompton rail

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So basically passengers have to be inconvenienced because motorists can't be trusted to drive properly.

What strikes me is that this situation can't be rare across the country and the risk increase must be limited. Are NR allowed to take a nuanced view, balancing increased risk against passenger improvements, or is there now a blanket ban on any enhancement that increases the risk of any given level crossing ?

Aren’t the Howden barriers full width?
 

Ianno87

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So basically passengers have to be inconvenienced because motorists can't be trusted to drive properly.

What strikes me is that this situation can't be rare across the country and the risk increase must be limited. Are NR allowed to take a nuanced view, balancing increased risk against passenger improvements, or is there now a blanket ban on any enhancement that increases the risk of any given level crossing ?

Not a blanket ban, but it'll be key whether it's enough to notch up the risk score categorisation for the crossing or not. If it does, some sort of mitigation will have to be applied to bring it back down again (or some demonstration that the risk is as low as reasonably practicable with all sensible measures applied)

Point is, it's not enough to say it happens at other crossings so is fine here, each crossing is unique in its set up, usage and specific risks
 

Ianno87

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Aren’t the Howden barriers full width?

Pedestrians can (and often do) jump full width barriers. Especially if their new train will block the crossing so they want to get across first so they don't miss it...
 

Roger100

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But there are other stations which have a level crossing next to them which sometimes get blocked by a train stopping there.
I've spent a bit of time waiting at the High Street crossing at the west end of Datchet station, where the trains are much longer than the platform so the London bound trains block the crossing. The trains to Windsor have another effect, the road traffic queues at both the High Street and Queens Road crossings, which are about 100 metres apart. At busy times the queues are so long that they affect adjacent roads and jam up the whole of the village. There's little that can be done to alleviate this, so drivers have to be patient.
 

matacaster

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43190+43165 have returned home to Bristol for maintenance. It's only done a few training runs. Plus 43190 dropped all its coolant apparently.

Has this HST been modded to perform at same level of reliability as Class 180?
 
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