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Nottingham 'Bus War'

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Robertj21a

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https://www.nctx.co.uk/gasbus

I think this means the gas buses aren't viable without some external funding. All the publicity talked about a fleet of 53 vehicles and the last (453) was registered in April 2018, so this must also mean that the funding has been spent. Unless the economics of gas buses have improved significantly they will have to seek extra funding to order some more, and if this is not forthcoming will be ordering diesels instead. This may explain uncertainty on replacement of the Pink fleet - does anyone have knowledge of a further funding application in progress?

https://www.nctx.co.uk/ourfleet

If I recall correctly, NCT wanted 120 gas buses, all with OLEV support. They got 53 agreed as a first tranche, with hopes that the second tranche for 67 would be approved during a subsequent round of possible worthy causes.
 
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MCR247

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I imagine as said above it will be new buses for the 28 and the 68/69. Will be interesting to see on the 68/69 as those are always rammed at peak times so maybe a frequency increase to every 5 mins is on the cards to make up for the lost seating capacity?
 

ThatOneGuy

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I imagine as said above it will be new buses for the 28 and the 68/69. Will be interesting to see on the 68/69 as those are always rammed at peak times so maybe a frequency increase to every 5 mins is on the cards to make up for the lost seating capacity?

To increase the 68/69 to every 5 would means a PVR increase of 50% from 12 to 18 vehicles. I don't think that's likely, especially when you consider that the total capacity difference between the N230UD Omnidekkas and a E400 CBG is only 3 passengers. 87 (86+1 standee) to 84 (72+12 standees).

120 gas buses would cover a lot of routes so there may be a few other routes go gas before Pink or Yellow CBGs are seen though....
 

MCR247

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NCT announced today that the second batch of 67 biogas deckers are confirmed now, with the first ones due in April for the Brown Line 17 and with the Pink 28s joining in the summer

https://www.nctx.co.uk/moregasbuses
World’s Largest Bio-Gas Double Deck Fleet will More than Double in Size Following OLEV Funding Announcement
Today Wed 6th Feb 2019

Nottingham City Transport’s fleet of 53 bio-gas double deck buses will more than double in size this year, as a further 67 join the City Operator of the Year’s fleet.

NCT has been successful in securing a further £1.12m from OLEV (Office of Low Emission Vehicles), which will be used to expand its bio-methane refuelling station at its main bus depot.

The announcement was made today at the UK Bus Summit by Buses Minister Nusrat Ghani, who commented: “This government is doing more than ever before to reduce emissions across all modes of transport and I’m delighted to see the bus industry putting itself at the forefront of this.”

Expanding the bio-gas refuelling station is necessary for NCT to be able to fuel more gas buses and this funding announcement paves the way for NCT to confirm its order for 67 more bio-gas double decks, representing a total investment by NCT of £20m.

The first of the 67 buses will enter service on Brown Line 17 to Hucknall Road, City Hospital and Bulwell in April, with further routes announced and launched throughout the remainder of the year. It is expected all 120 bio-gas buses will be running by November.

The introduction of further bio-gas double decks allows NCT to withdraw its oldest buses (pre-2011), with Pink Line 28 to Bilborough set to receive these new buses in the summer.

Gary Mason, NCT Engineering Director said, “With 53 Bio-Gas double deck buses already successfully operating in Nottingham and making a significant impact on reducing emissions in the city, this announcement for funding to expand our gas refuelling station paves the way for investment by NCT in a further 67 Bio-Gas double decks to join the fleet this year”.

He continued, “This fleet of 120 Bio-Gas double decks, coupled with the retrofitting of exhaust treatment systems to our diesel buses, demonstrates NCTs support for cleaning up Nottingham’s air, contributing to Nottingham City Council’s overall clean air strategy.”

Bio-gas double decks are the greenest buses on the road, with well-to-wheel emissions that are 84% lower than an equivalent new diesel double deck.

With 120, more than half the NCT double deck fleet will be fuelled by bio-gas by the end of the year.

Alongside this significant investment by NCT in new buses, the company is also fitting exhaust treatment systems to its existing younger diesel buses, following funding secured by Nottingham City Council and Nottinghamshire County Council last year.

This will see all NCT buses meet the most stringent Euro VI emissions standards across its fleet within a year, supporting Nottingham City Council’s clean air strategy.

Dave Liversidge Nottingham City Council’s Portfolio Holder for Transport said, “It’s great news that NCT will be able to double the size of their biogas fuelling station, which means we’ll soon be seeing even more clean, green biogas buses on our streets.

He continued, “Great public transport is so important - not just to help people move around the city, but also to improve the quality of the air we all breathe. Biogas buses have already played a vital part in reducing air pollution in the city, and expanding the fuelling station will enable NCT to operate one of the cleanest bus fleets in the country. We’re pleased to have supported them in this bid as Nottingham continues to lead the way in improving air quality.”
 

Urobach

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67 more gas buses for Nottingham, starting with Brown 17 in April and Pink 28 in the summer

https://www.nctx.co.uk/moregasbuses

World’s Largest Bio-Gas Double Deck Fleet will More than Double in Size Following OLEV Funding Announcement
Today Wed 6th Feb 2019

Nottingham City Transport’s fleet of 53 bio-gas double deck buses will more than double in size this year, as a further 67 join the City Operator of the Year’s fleet.

NCT has been successful in securing a further £1.12m from OLEV (Office of Low Emission Vehicles), which will be used to expand its bio-methane refuelling station at its main bus depot.

The announcement was made today at the UK Bus Summit by Buses Minister Nusrat Ghani, who commented: “This government is doing more than ever before to reduce emissions across all modes of transport and I’m delighted to see the bus industry putting itself at the forefront of this.”

Expanding the bio-gas refuelling station is necessary for NCT to be able to fuel more gas buses and this funding announcement paves the way for NCT to confirm its order for 67 more bio-gas double decks, representing a total investment by NCT of £20m.

The first of the 67 buses will enter service on Brown Line 17 to Hucknall Road, City Hospital and Bulwell in April, with further routes announced and launched throughout the remainder of the year. It is expected all 120 bio-gas buses will be running by November.

The introduction of further bio-gas double decks allows NCT to withdraw its oldest buses (pre-2011), with Pink Line 28 to Bilborough set to receive these new buses in the summer.

Gary Mason, NCT Engineering Director said, “With 53 Bio-Gas double deck buses already successfully operating in Nottingham and making a significant impact on reducing emissions in the city, this announcement for funding to expand our gas refuelling station paves the way for investment by NCT in a further 67 Bio-Gas double decks to join the fleet this year”.

He continued, “This fleet of 120 Bio-Gas double decks, coupled with the retrofitting of exhaust treatment systems to our diesel buses, demonstrates NCTs support for cleaning up Nottingham’s air, contributing to Nottingham City Council’s overall clean air strategy.”

Bio-gas double decks are the greenest buses on the road, with well-to-wheel emissions that are 84% lower than an equivalent new diesel double deck.

With 120, more than half the NCT double deck fleet will be fuelled by bio-gas by the end of the year.

Alongside this significant investment by NCT in new buses, the company is also fitting exhaust treatment systems to its existing younger diesel buses, following funding secured by Nottingham City Council and Nottinghamshire County Council last year.

This will see all NCT buses meet the most stringent Euro VI emissions standards across its fleet within a year, supporting Nottingham City Council’s clean air strategy.

Dave Liversidge Nottingham City Council’s Portfolio Holder for Transport said, “It’s great news that NCT will be able to double the size of their biogas fuelling station, which means we’ll soon be seeing even more clean, green biogas buses on our streets.

He continued, “Great public transport is so important - not just to help people move around the city, but also to improve the quality of the air we all breathe. Biogas buses have already played a vital part in reducing air pollution in the city, and expanding the fuelling station will enable NCT to operate one of the cleanest bus fleets in the country. We’re pleased to have supported them in this bid as Nottingham continues to lead the way in improving air quality.”
 

Urobach

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Will add this this picture from NCTs Facebook relating to the news, hinting what else may be receiving the remain vehivles
 

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goldisgood

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This will see all of the N94s and N270s withdrawn after these are introduced I presume.
This will see all NCT buses meet the most stringent Euro VI emissions standards across its fleet within a year, supporting Nottingham City Council’s clean air strategy.
I'd guess all of the N230s will be upgraded to Euro 6.

I'm predicting Brown 17, Lilac 27, Pink 28, Lime 58, Turquoise 77 and Purple 89 from the facebook picture mentioned above and linked here https://www.facebook.com/Nottingham...45852444645/10156093880964646/?type=3&theater
 

WillPS

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Trying to get my head around the numbers. Assume no changes in PVR...

Brown 17 will get 8, releasing 8x10-reg N230 Omnidekkas
Pink 28 will get 8, releasing 8x06-reg N94 Omnidekkas (for disposal, I presume)


16 used, 51 to go.

Lilac 27 would take 6
Purple 89 would take 9
Yellow 68/69 would take 11


In each case, that would result in an equivalent amount of 61-reg N320 Omnidekkas being released. That would take us to 42 of the new buses, with 34 Omnidekkas available for cascade (presuming again that the Pink relics are gon'ers). I think that would mean the Omnidekkas are off the core routes.

Looking at the other colours - Lime and Turquoise. Given the 56/57/59 services got newly refurbished Omnidekka N30s only last year, one presumes this is for the 58.

Lime 58 takes 9

51 used, 16 to go.

Turquoise currently has 9 N230 E400s (14-reg)
Turquoise currently has 13 N230 E400s (15-reg)

It could conceivably be either, but given the latter would leave only 3 spares. Given that, and the slightly older vehicles, and the fact it would allow the removal of the last of the 'GO2' branding, lets go with 77...

Turquoise 77 takes 9

If we assume the remaining 7 go in to spare livery....
1 replaces the remaining N94 Omnidekka spare (689)
5 replace some of the Parliament Street N270 spares

So from the first round of cascade we have:
9 N94 Omnidekkas (dispose)
5 N270 Omnidekkas (dispose)
34 N230 Omnidekkas
18 N320 E400s

Looking at the remaining Omnidekka N270 fleet, there would be 34 left after those 5 are out, so presumably the 18 E400s replace some, and 16 later N230 Omnidekkas replace the others.

So presumably the earlier N230s (those on the Brown line currently, for starters) will also be disposed of. I'd guess these will be held on to allow extra slack for the other N230s to be upgraded.
 

goldisgood

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Trying to get my head around the numbers. Assume no changes in PVR...

Brown 17 will get 8, releasing 8x10-reg N230 Omnidekkas
Pink 28 will get 8, releasing 8x06-reg N94 Omnidekkas (for disposal, I presume)


16 used, 51 to go.

Lilac 27 would take 6
Purple 89 would take 9
Yellow 68/69 would take 11


In each case, that would result in an equivalent amount of 61-reg N320 Omnidekkas being released. That would take us to 42 of the new buses, with 34 Omnidekkas available for cascade (presuming again that the Pink relics are gon'ers). I think that would mean the Omnidekkas are off the core routes.

Looking at the other colours - Lime and Turquoise. Given the 56/57/59 services got newly refurbished Omnidekka N30s only last year, one presumes this is for the 58.

Lime 58 takes 9

51 used, 16 to go.

Turquoise currently has 9 N230 E400s (14-reg)
Turquoise currently has 13 N230 E400s (15-reg)

It could conceivably be either, but given the latter would leave only 3 spares. Given that, and the slightly older vehicles, and the fact it would allow the removal of the last of the 'GO2' branding, lets go with 77...

Turquoise 77 takes 9

If we assume the remaining 7 go in to spare livery....
1 replaces the remaining N94 Omnidekka spare (689)
5 replace some of the Parliament Street N270 spares

So from the first round of cascade we have:
9 N94 Omnidekkas (dispose)
5 N270 Omnidekkas (dispose)
34 N230 Omnidekkas
18 N320 E400s

Looking at the remaining Omnidekka N270 fleet, there would be 34 left after those 5 are out, so presumably the 18 E400s replace some, and 16 later N230 Omnidekkas replace the others.

So presumably the earlier N230s (those on the Brown line currently, for starters) will also be disposed of. I'd guess these will be held on to allow extra slack for the other N230s to be upgraded.
Another look at it, it seems that all pre-2011 buses will be withdrawn according to NCT's article.
The introduction of further bio-gas double decks allows NCT to withdraw its oldest buses (pre-2011), with Pink Line 28 to Bilborough set to receive these new buses in the summer.
There are 57 N270s and N94s, so that leaves 10 N230s to be withdrawn. There are 10 unrefurbished pre-2011s on the 17, alongside 7 which are pre-2011 on the 56/57/59. This leaves 7 pre-2011 buses to be withdrawn, but what will replace them?
 

edwin_m

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Interesting that the funding for NCT is stated to be to extend the gas filling station. This suggests that now the design work is done the purchase price of a gas bus isn't much higher than for a diesel, and the operating costs are also similar.

Not sure how long this link will be available: https://westbridgfordwire.com/3-8-m...missions-across-nottingham-and-east-midlands/
The table isn't pastable but it also refers to £2.7m for 8 electric buses for TrentBarton and four for Nottinghamshire council.
 

ag51ruk

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Interesting that the funding for NCT is stated to be to extend the gas filling station. This suggests that now the design work is done the purchase price of a gas bus isn't much higher than for a diesel, and the operating costs are also similar.

Not sure how long this link will be available: https://westbridgfordwire.com/3-8-m...missions-across-nottingham-and-east-midlands/
The table isn't pastable but it also refers to £2.7m for 8 electric buses for TrentBarton and four for Nottinghamshire council.

The article is mostly cut and paste from the DfT press release available here - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/48-million-funding-to-drive-down-bus-emissions-across-the-uk

It's part of a funding package that covers 263 buses across England and Wales, there is a link to a more detailed table of costs. The Trent Barton bid, for example, is for 8 buses at a cost of £1,512,000.00, plus £363,859.00 for new infrastructure. Will be interesting to see where these operate, what TB route in Nottingham needs 8 buses?
 

drunkendentist

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The Workplace Parking Levy was brought in to help fund the 2nd tram line (Happy to be corrected!).

Given Line 2 was completed several years ago, what are funds being generated by the Workplace Parking Levy being used for? Given that is must generate millions of pounds year, couldn't that help pay for buses of the future?
 

gordonthemoron

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The Workplace Parking Levy was brought in to help fund the 2nd tram line (Happy to be corrected!).

Given Line 2 was completed several years ago, what are funds being generated by the Workplace Parking Levy being used for? Given that is must generate millions of pounds year, couldn't that help pay for buses of the future?

I thought it was to continue to subsidise the ongoing running costs of the extended NETwork
 

edwin_m

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I thought it was to continue to subsidise the ongoing running costs of the extended NETwork
Probably not the running costs, as the fares probably cover these. More likely to be paying the PFI charges that should eventually pay back the money borrowed to build it.
 

43055

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The article is mostly cut and paste from the DfT press release available here - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/48-million-funding-to-drive-down-bus-emissions-across-the-uk

It's part of a funding package that covers 263 buses across England and Wales, there is a link to a more detailed table of costs. The Trent Barton bid, for example, is for 8 buses at a cost of £1,512,000.00, plus £363,859.00 for new infrastructure. Will be interesting to see where these operate, what TB route in Nottingham needs 8 buses?
The Mickleover and the MY15 are the only routes which have a PVR of 8. There could be the possibly be two routes with 1 spare bus but that might not be likely.
 

edwin_m

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The Mickleover and the MY15 are the only routes which have a PVR of 8. There could be the possibly be two routes with 1 spare bus but that might not be likely.
The link I pasted earlier also has this, not in the DfT press release:
Councillor Jonathan Wheeler, County Councillor for West Bridgford South, is delighted at the announcement ‘It is fantastic news to get these electric buses to serve the new development. Myself and Councillor Gordon Wheeler have been working with the County Council to make our case to Government and to be successful is great news. We are now working with Rushcliffe Borough Council to access the money developers have paid towards a bus service to get the service operational.’
Gordon Wheeler is the councillor for West Bridgford West. So some of these vehicles are for a route serving new development in southern/western West Bridgford. The Keyworth is the only TrentBarton route serving this area and passes by the Sharphill development in Edwalton, where the developer has talked the talk about dedicated bus routes in the past although I thought they favoured NCT. So I wonder if TB are starting a new route via Musters Road (which is the boundary between WB West and South) and Sharphill.
 

ThatOneGuy

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The link I pasted earlier also has this, not in the DfT press release:

Gordon Wheeler is the councillor for West Bridgford West. So some of these vehicles are for a route serving new development in southern/western West Bridgford. The Keyworth is the only TrentBarton route serving this area and passes by the Sharphill development in Edwalton, where the developer has talked the talk about dedicated bus routes in the past although I thought they favoured NCT. So I wonder if TB are starting a new route via Musters Road (which is the boundary between WB West and South) and Sharphill.

County Council also received funding for 4 electric vehicles so Cllr Wheeler is likely referring to those rather than the 8 TB are getting. The county have increased the number of routes that they operate in the last couple of years so it may that these are going electric, though most of them operate limited journeys off-peak only so it would be surprising for them to receive such vehicles.
 
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Many of the County Council routes do run all day. The 528, 532/3 have a requirement of 2 vehicles and operate 0600-1900. The 510/1 operating 0645-1920 also has a 2 vehicle requirement.
 

ThatOneGuy

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Many of the County Council routes do run all day. The 528, 532/3 have a requirement of 2 vehicles and operate 0600-1900. The 510/1 operating 0645-1920 also has a 2 vehicle requirement.

Aye but the 510/511 already operate with electric e200s.

528, 532, 533 are a reasonable call. Certainly more likely than the routes at the other side of Notts: 747, 863 etc. Though Cllr Wheeler is Bridgford South so it suggests routes south of the River.

Perhaps with the City Council cutting back maybe the County will be looking to take routes like the L1, L22, L23, L73, L74 and L75 inhouse. These are run by CT4N but the L1 and L22/23 at least operate mostly in County areas.

I guess we'll see soon enough.
 
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Aye but the 510/511 already operate with electric e200s.



Perhaps with the City Council cutting back maybe the County will be looking to take routes like the L1, L22, L23, L73, L74 and L75 inhouse. These are run by CT4N but the L1 and L22/23 at least operate mostly in County areas.

I guess we'll see soon enough.

The L1 is designed for Wilford Village & Silverdale both in the city. The L73-L75 are already County Funded as they were tendered by them. The L22/3 have funding from a Primary Care Centre but certainly a case for County Funding also.
I would have thought the issue of charging points on rural routes like the 528 etc could be point.
 

kevjs

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The L1 is designed for Wilford Village & Silverdale both in the city. The L73-L75 are already County Funded as they were tendered by them. The L22/3 have funding from a Primary Care Centre but certainly a case for County Funding also.
I would have thought the issue of charging points on rural routes like the 528 etc could be point.
Presumably the reason the L22/L23 are free to use is because of the Primary Care Centre funding - most of the users would have bus passes anyway so little point having the hassle of dealing with cash. Supposadly operated by electric buses but nearly every time I see it, it seems to be an ex-Malta diesel one operating on the route.
 

goldisgood

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The wording of the article on NCT's gas buses has now changed, with pre-2010 buses to be withdrawn, not pre-2011 as stated previously.
The introduction of further bio-gas double decks allows NCT to withdraw its oldest buses (pre-2010), with Pink Line 28 to Bilborough set to receive these new buses in the summer.
https://www.nctx.co.uk/moregasbuses
 

MCR247

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That makes sense, the 10 reg N230s are still okay for another few years
 

Ginga

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Nottingham's Linkbus network is being put out to tender , due to Council budget cuts.
 
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So TM Withdraw the Spira from the 3rd March. Notts & Derby withdraw the 12/A & X12 from 1st April along with the Saturday service on the 73. They have already withdrawn the 35 in Derby & the 11 (the old Felix 12 service). Quite a lot of cut backs especially for Notts & Derby of late.
 

ag51ruk

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The 35 was the only bus that Derby City Council subsidised (i think) and they pulled the funding. Most of the route is covered by alternative buses (the Harlequin has picked up most of the Littleover traffic) and the bits that aren't don't produce enough traffic to keep going.

I think the Wellglade companies do a good job, but there have been some notable cutbacks in the last few years as well as increases - Mickleover lost its night buses, then evening buses reduced by 50%, Spondon Flyer reduced, etc
 
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