Notice with intention of prosecuting

MJN11 · 12 Jan 2019

hi long story short my friend is in probably a lot of hot water with Thameslink/Southern.

4 months ago he was stopped at Epsom station for buying an under 16 ticket from Ewell East (which he thought the 16+ Oyster would be valid to back it up due to the oyster being eligible for child weekly tickets). This was £1.10 and the correct fair he shouldve paid was £2.20. He then was questioned and asked to provide his details which is where he provided his previous address which is obviously against the rorra 1889, but left the station giving the correct details when requested.

Yesterday a letter came for him saying they were intending to take this case to courts with the potential outcomes being a fine up to £1000, imprisonment and a criminal record.

In the letter he’s been asked to explain in his own words what happened within a fortnight. Obviously he knows he’s done wrong and has got nobody to blame but himself but understandably can’t seem to stop stressing about how much a criminal record is going to hit him. He’s put together a letter clearing everything up which I can send in this thread apologising/understanding that he’s done wrong and won’t do it again as well as offering money to keep the case out of court (as well as any costs they want to incur) but would like an expert to review it and make amends before he sends it off.

Again he knows he’s in the wrong and is willing to take any constructive criticism/advice referring to this matter.

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ForTheLoveOf · 12 Jan 2019

MJN11 said:
hi long story short my friend is in probably a lot of hot water with Thameslink/Southern.

4 months ago he was stopped at Epsom station for buying an under 16 ticket from Ewell East (which he thought the 16+ Oyster would be valid to back it up due to the oyster being eligible for child weekly tickets). This was £1.10 and the correct fair he shouldve paid was £2.20. He then was questioned and asked to provide his details which is where he provided his previous address which is obviously against the rorra 1889, but left the station giving the correct details when requested.

Yesterday a letter came for him saying they were intending to take this case to courts with the potential outcomes being a fine up to £1000, imprisonment and a criminal record.

In the letter he’s been asked to explain in his own words what happened within a fortnight. Obviously he knows he’s done wrong and has got nobody to blame but himself but understandably can’t seem to stop stressing about how much a criminal record is going to hit him. He’s put together a letter clearing everything up which I can send in this thread apologising/understanding that he’s done wrong and won’t do it again as well as offering money to keep the case out of court (as well as any costs they want to incur) but would like an expert to review it and make amends before he sends it off.

Again he knows he’s in the wrong and is willing to take any constructive criticism/advice referring to this matter.

JHow old is he? This may have a bearing on the matter - it is unusual for a train company to take someone who is under 18 at the time of the Court hearing to Court. Note that this means that anyone who is near or above 17.5 is at risk of prosecution if the train company wait until they are 18.

There could have been an argument that the original mistake, given the circumstances, did not constitute intent to avoid payment of the fare - but then providing an incorrect address is going to tip the balance into it constituting a RoRA offence.

It may still be possible to settle the matter out of Court; the train companies are generally more amenable to settle than the likes of TfL. Note that, even if the matter did go to Court, imprisonment is not legally allowed for a first RoRA prosecution, only for second and subsequent prosecutions (and even then it would take an extremely serious case for the sentencing guidelines to permit it). So it is 'only' the fine and criminal record.

The criminal conviction would become spent 1 year after conviction, but if your friend is near to applying to university etc. then this might still need to be declared on the UCAS application. It needn't rule out going to Uni but it may be something he needs to explain. Any fine would be based on your friend's income, but if he isn't earning a lot/anything then it would be likely to be a fairly minimal amount, e.g. £100-200.

Feel free to post here with a draft letter (without personal details of course) for comments.

MJN11 · 12 Jan 2019

He’s 19. Reason why he had a 16+ oyster was because he was still in education. His biggest focus is of course trying to not let the matter get to court. I will send what he has written below

Dear XXXX

I am writing to you in response to your letter you have sent me explaining in my words what happened when I was stopped by your inspectors at Epsom station.

On the 28th September 2018 I bought a child’s ticket from Ewell east to Epsom (due to having a 16+ oyster which entitles you to child’s weekly tickets on national rail). However to my mistake this discount was not valid outside the London oyster zone. Upon supplying details I will admit i used a previous address and wrong dob (regretfully) however the inspector wrote my name wrong as he took it from my Oyster card which was slightly damaged but understand that this is not an excuse and it is my responsibility to make sure the details that were taken were correct.

After reading through your letter I understand how ticket fraud/fare evasion is a very serious crime and how southern has a zero tolerance to this which requires everyone to pay the correct fare every time you use a train. I am very regretful and stressed about the outcomes from this charge especially of a criminal record due to how damaging this can be and the fact I am a good citizen and haven’t been in trouble for this offence before or anything else. I will take full responsibility and apologise for this offence and would be more than welcome to pay an out of court settlement of £100 plus any costs and twice the fare from Ewell East to Epsom which is £4.40 (however I am willing to pay another amount if this isn’t suitable). As well as this fine, I also give you my understanding and word that there will not be a repeat offence by myself and any repeat offence may lead to instant prosecution.

Thank you for taking the time in reading my response

Yours sincerely

ForTheLoveOf · 12 Jan 2019

MJN11 said:
He’s 19. Reason why he had a 16+ oyster was because he was still in education. His biggest focus is of course trying to not let the matter get to court. I will send what he has written below

Dear XXXX

I am writing to you in response to your letter you have sent me explaining in my words what happened when I was stopped by your inspectors at Epsom station.

On the 28th September 2018 I bought a child’s ticket from Ewell east to Epsom (due to having a 16+ oyster which entitles you to child’s weekly tickets on national rail). However to my mistake this discount was not valid outside the London oyster zone. Upon supplying details I will admit i used a previous address and wrong dob (regretfully) however the inspector wrote my name wrong as he took it from my Oyster card which was slightly damaged but understand that this is not an excuse and it is my responsibility to make sure the details that were taken were correct.

After reading through your letter I understand how ticket fraud/fare evasion is a very serious crime and how southern has a zero tolerance to this which requires everyone to pay the correct fare every time you use a train. I am very regretful and stressed about the outcomes from this charge especially of a criminal record due to how damaging this can be and the fact I am a good citizen and haven’t been in trouble for this offence before or anything else. I will take full responsibility and apologise for this offence and would be more than welcome to pay an out of court settlement of £100 plus any costs and twice the fare from Ewell East to Epsom which is £4.40 (however I am willing to pay another amount if this isn’t suitable). As well as this fine, I also give you my understanding and word that there will not be a repeat offence by myself and any repeat offence may lead to instant prosecution.

Thank you for taking the time in reading my response

Yours sincerely

A good start. I might review the first paragraph a bit, as at the moment it's not reading smoothly. I might go for something like:

On the 28th September 2018, I bought a child-rate ticket from Ewell East to Epsom. I hold a 16+ Oyster, which entitles me to child-rate season tickets within the London Oyster/contactless area. At the time of buying the discounted ticket, I did not know that I was not entitled to the child discount for paper tickets or travel outside the London Oyster/contactless area. I now realise that this is the case.

When I was asked for my details by a member of Southern staff, I initially gave my previous address and incorrect date of birth. I apologise for these actions, and I recognise that giving incorrect details is an offence. I then gave the member of staff my correct details before leaving.

The start of the second paragraph is good, however I would also modify it a bit:

After reading your letter, I can understand why Southern has a zero tolerance policy to passengers failing to have the correct ticket. I regret my actions deeply, but take responsibility for them, and would like to apologise again for what I have done.

I would like to come to an out of Court settlement with Southern. I would be willing to pay any costs Southern has incurred in investigating this matter, as well as the fare due. As well as the settlement, I also promise that I will always ensure I have the correct ticket in future, and I understand that any repeat offence may lead to instant prosecution.

Thank you for considering my offer.

Hope that helps!

MJN11 · 12 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
A good start. I might review the first paragraph a bit, as at the moment it's not reading smoothly. I might go for something like:

The start of the second paragraph is good, however I would also modify it a bit:

Hope that helps!

That’s a great amendment thanks for your help. I will go with him to tyoe it up and check if there’s anything else he needs to add before sending it off!

Another thing should he mention what impacts a criminal record can have to have to him or don’t bother

ForTheLoveOf · 13 Jan 2019

MJN11 said:
That’s a great amendment thanks for your help. I will go with him to tyoe it up and check if there’s anything else he needs to add before sending it off!

Another thing should he mention what impacts a criminal record can have to have to him or don’t bother

No, I wouldn't mention that. The train company isn't going to say "oh, well we didn't realise that, let's forget about the whole thing". The whole point of a criminal conviction is that it is supposed to cause you difficulties, so mentioning it hardly makes sense!

js1000 · 13 Jan 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
No, I wouldn't mention that. The train company isn't going to say "oh, well we didn't realise that, let's forget about the whole thing". The whole point of a criminal conviction is that it is supposed to cause you difficulties, so mentioning it hardly makes sense!

Agreed. The letter is fine in regards to contrition but omit the criminal record sentence as it weakens your position. If anything it increases the chances they will come back with a higher than usual settlement offer (i.e. they would say it 'covers the costs of investigating the case') in the knowledge you're willing to pay it no matter what.

ConcernedTok · 13 Jan 2019

Epsom Station again! Most likely the same team that stopped me.

4 months is a long time between though. For the regulars on here, is that a normal waiting period to wait for a letter to come through?

MJN11 · 13 Jan 2019

ConcernedTok said:
Epsom Station again! Most likely the same team that stopped me.

4 months is a long time between though. For the regulars on here, is that a normal waiting period to wait for a letter to come through?

They have up to 6 months to do this but over a small fare It did take long.

It seems inspectors are checking more regularly at Epsom to me.

najaB · 13 Jan 2019

js1000 said:
If anything it increases the chances they will come back with a higher than usual settlement offer (i.e. they would say it 'covers the costs of investigating the case') in the knowledge you're willing to pay it no matter what.

A settlement amount must be justifiable - they can't just charge whatever they like based on the passenger's willingness and/or ability to pay.

It has to accurately reflect their losses and costs.

MJN11 · 13 Jan 2019

Also I forgot to mention that the offence he’s been asked to account for is boarding a service without a valid ticket but doesn’t say anything of intention of avoiding fare or giving wrong personal information to an inspector when asked.

If a court settlement was rejected which charge would this be Byelaw 18.1 or RoRA 1889?

najaB · 13 Jan 2019

MJN11 said:
If a court settlement was rejected which charge would this be Byelaw 18.1 or RoRA 1889?

Based on this:

MJN11 said:
the offence he’s been asked to account for is boarding a service without a valid ticket

It appears that they are currently considering a prosecution under the Byelaws.

island · 13 Jan 2019

najaB said:
A settlement amount must be justifiable - they can't just charge whatever they like based on the passenger's willingness and/or ability to pay.

It has to accurately reflect their losses and costs.

I don’t believe this is correct.

island · 13 Jan 2019

MJN11 said:
Also I forgot to mention that the offence he’s been asked to account for is boarding a service without a valid ticket but doesn’t say anything of intention of avoiding fare or giving wrong personal information to an inspector when asked.

If a court settlement was rejected which charge would this be Byelaw 18.1 or RoRA 1889?

Did he join the train at Ewell East or further up the line?

MJN11 · 13 Jan 2019

island said:
Did he join the train at Ewell East or further up the line?

No he boarded at Ewell East. the updated ticket machines at southern stations no longer allows you to buy tickets starting from elsewhere (unless you’ve bought them to pick up from a 3rd party website).

najaB · 13 Jan 2019

island said:
I don’t believe this is correct.

It is. TOCs aren't allowed to "punish" passengers, only courts have the power to impose fines.

While a TOC is free to accept any offer made by the passenger they would find themselves in quite hot water were it to appear that they were effectively attempting extortion by offering settlements that left them in a better financial position than they would have been if the offence had not occurred.

island · 13 Jan 2019

I don’t believe that has a basis in law or has been tested in court. It may well be bad PR, but that is a different matter.

najaB · 13 Jan 2019

The Courts expect that reasonable efforts have been made to avoid unnecessary prosecutions being brought before them.

If it transpires in court that the TOC was of the opinion that a prosecution wasn't justified (evidenced by their making an offer) and the defendant was willing and able to restore the TOCs finances to the state as if the offence hadn't occurred, but the TOC sought to make a profit on the situation then there would be good grounds for the prosecution to be dismissed.

If this happened frequently enough, the DPP would likely take interest, as would the ORR.

furlong · 13 Jan 2019

How has this thread got here? This doesn't arise because train companies do only ask for their costs and don't try to add on extra penalties, because they know that's how the courts work. (There can be disputes as to what the train company may and may not include in those costs, but they still consider them as costs, not penalty.)

MJN11 · 14 Jan 2019

Update - the letter has been written stating the incident and court settlement offer has been sent off.

It’s obv too early to know what’s goung to happen but how likely/unlikely will the toc accept the settlement.

gray1404 · 14 Jan 2019

Did you stick mainly to what you drafted on here or did you make further changes to the letter?

MJN11 · 14 Jan 2019

gray1404 said:
Did you stick mainly to what you drafted on here or did you make further changes to the letter?

Yes. Added some amendments as well as personal information

londonboi198o5 · 15 Jan 2019

MJN11 said:
Update - the letter has been written stating the incident and court settlement offer has been sent off.

It’s obv too early to know what’s goung to happen but how likely/unlikely will the toc accept the settlement.

They are not obliged or have to accept any offer you make to them.
Each case is different from the last.
Only thing you can do is wait until you hear back from them.

MJN11 · 8 Feb 2019

*Update* even though its taken almost a months wait Southern have finally written back saying their happy to settle this matter out of court their wanting £75 which my friend has paid. He's definitely learnt from this and has applied for a railcard as its the only efficient and legitimate way to get discounts on trains. Thank you everybody for your impeccable help and have a great weekend

najaB · 8 Feb 2019

MJN11 said:
*Update* even though its taken almost a months wait Southern have finally written back saying their happy to settle this matter out of court their wanting £75 which my friend has paid. He's definitely learnt from this and has applied for a railcard as its the only efficient and legitimate way to get discounts on trains. Thank you everybody for your impeccable help and have a great weekend

Thanks for the update.

Notice with intention of prosecuting

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