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Half of bus routes could be scrapped because of underfunded free pass scheme

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Tetchytyke

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Can you imagine the bus services that would be lost now if they weren't subsidised in this way ?

I don't think it would make much difference.

The reimbursement rate is calculated by estimating how many people would have paid (this is usually calculated by taking a percentage of those who did travel). That "lost revenue" is then reduced further, as ENCTS will only reimburse a proportion of the single fare. That's why single fares are now so expensive on buses (e.g. it is £2.60 to go to the shopping park 1.25 miles down the rooad from me).

So I don't think it would make much difference, truth be told. Operators would lose the certainty of the ENCTS income but would also have a bit more control over their income, as they'd no longer be beholden to the council. Many operators who have folded, including Pennine who'd been going for 80 years, specifically blamed ENCTS.
 
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Tetchytyke

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They probably got to "day ticket = two singles" on many companies by the start of ENCTS

Depends on the company and depends on whether returns were offered.

IME that's certainly true for operators who offered return tickets, which usually were priced at 1.5 times a single.

But most of the operators I used in the early 2000s- First Bradford, Go Northern (Durham) and Stagecoach Newcastle- didn't generally do returns so the day ticket effectively was the return. Arriva Durham was the exception as they did do returns and a local return was cheaper than a local day ticket, although for long distance (e.g. Durham-Newcastle-Carlisle) a regionwide day ticket beat two singles.
 

SCH117X

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There have already been a number of services lost due to majority of users travelling on ENCTS passes and full or nearly full buses running at a loss. One partial solution could be with todays card technology restricting the free travel to local essential journeys only, which is probably what the originators of it were thinking of rather than ENCTS holders using them to travel further afield.
 

AM9

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There have already been a number of services lost due to majority of users travelling on ENCTS passes and full or nearly full buses running at a loss. One partial solution could be with todays card technology restricting the free travel to local essential journeys only, which is probably what the originators of it were thinking of rather than ENCTS holders using them to travel further afield.
So what are "local essential journeys" and who decides what they are?
 

PeterC

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So what are "local essential journeys" and who decides what they are?
I suspect that certain assumptions were made about the scheme:
1. Pensioners wouldn't normally change buses more than once so they would only make fairly short journeys
2. That a "local" bus route only goes as far as the next town.
Where I live that pretty well stands, people go to Chesham or Amersham or change once for Wycombe. For most longer journeys you would get very little time at your destination before you had to come back as the last buses back to the villages are at tea time.

Of course did giving pensioners the ability to make a free trip to the supermarket 6 days a week contribute to the closure of the village shop?
 

SCH117X

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So what are "local essential journeys" and who decides what they are?
Well nearest stop to home to main shopping centre or centres depending on the locality, doctors and hospitals would pretty much fit the bill. Anything else could be charged at reduced rate within a wider radius and beyond that full fare applied. Its been pretty obvious for some time the ENCTS system is unsustainable and some significant change is needed if their is either not a significant loss of services or operators aka Pennine.
 

overthewater

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Dai Corner

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ENCTS when it was local was dreadful, and meant you could travel 40miles one way but only travel 1/2 the other way even if there was a bigger shopping area etc. If you really wanted to cut it down you could also make it county council wide plus one.. If you live in Derbyshire you would get Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Leicestershire, Staffordshire and Cheshire area. I bet it wouldn't put a dent in the overall cost.

Or if you lived in Cornwall you'd get Devon and Cornwall but if you lived in Devon you'd get Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Dorset?
 

cjp

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What about having a flat fare rather than a free fare?
A modest fare such as 20p or 50p which the carrier gets to keep as well as the amount they now get? The oldies feel that they have paid and it would not break their bank.
In somewhere like London a pound or two could be put on an Oyster/Freedom pass and the flat fare be deducted as travel is made. In Hong Kong they have elderly persons Octopus cards for this reason just keep them topped up and 2HKD is deducted each trip with certain things being set to deduct nothing eg Star Ferries
 

cjp

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All that would do is cut the amount the goverment spends in grants.
I did say in addition to the amount the companies currently receive meaning that there would be no need to increase central funding - no suggestion that central funding should be reduced although knowing how governments work . . . .
 

AM9

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I suspect that certain assumptions were made about the scheme:
1. Pensioners wouldn't normally change buses more than once so they would only make fairly short journeys
If that became a restriction, how would they be stopped from getting on another bus?
2. That a "local" bus route only goes as far as the next town.
Where I live that pretty well stands, people go to Chesham or Amersham or change once for Wycombe. For most longer journeys you would get very little time at your destination before you had to come back as the last buses back to the villages are at tea time.
How would ENCTS passengers going to their nearest general hospital manage if their pass was limited to 'local' travel. Many counties away from major conurbations have just one acute hospital which can be some distance away from many parospective patients. Take Norfolk for instance, there are three acute hospitals in the county, in Great Yarmouth, Norwich and Kings Lynn. I only have indirect experience of a relative getting to the Norwich one from North Norfolk. It was a very long journey (nearly 30 miles by car alone) and would normally involve more than one bus. Maybe elderly/disabled peoples' trips to hospitals are to be considered 'non-essential'.
Of course did giving pensioners the ability to make a free trip to the supermarket 6 days a week contribute to the closure of the village shop?
Most elderly passengers would probably only be able to carry a few things on and off a bus. Probably far less of a contribution that those with cars that they can fill with lower-priced goods from a major supermarket. So many fit people complain that they can't carry anything, especially a push chair for their offspring's mobile bathroom and wardrobe and use that as justification for clogging towns with cars.
 
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What about having a flat fare rather than a free fare?
A modest fare such as 20p or 50p which the carrier gets to keep as well as the amount they now get? The oldies feel that they have paid and it would not break their bank.
In somewhere like London a pound or two could be put on an Oyster/Freedom pass and the flat fare be deducted as travel is made. In Hong Kong they have elderly persons Octopus cards for this reason just keep them topped up and 2HKD is deducted each trip with certain things being set to deduct nothing eg Star Ferries
if you start charging 20 or 50p the goverment will give councils even less
 

overthewater

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Then it will be back to Half fares and people will just not travel and you watch as even more bus routes are given the chop.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Then it will be back to Half fares and people will just not travel and you watch as even more bus routes are given the chop.

The next twenty to thirty years will be the period to watch with regards to seeing whether private car ownership will still be catered for by the multi-national car manufacturing industry to the same extent as at present. I wonder what the current number of people employed at present on a world-wide basis actually is?

I wonder if the British coal industry would have been the subject of threads on websites had they then existed stating how bad coal fired domestic and industrial usage (such as the railways when steam locomotives still held play) were responsible for the respiratory problems and associated deaths of the populace caused by emissions from chimneys of all sizes, even though there were many people in Britain nationally employed in that particular industry.
 

AM9

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The next twenty to thirty years will be the period to watch with regards to seeing whether private car ownership will still be catered for by the multi-national car manufacturing industry to the same extent as at present. I wonder what the current number of people employed at present on a world-wide basis actually is?

I wonder if the British coal industry would have been the subject of threads on websites had they then existed stating how bad coal fired domestic and industrial usage (such as the railways when steam locomotives still held play) were responsible for the respiratory problems and associated deaths of the populace caused by emissions from chimneys of all sizes, even though there were many people in Britain nationally employed in that particular industry.
In the next 20-30 years, the development of electric cars will have reached a point where the majority of potential owners will stop trying to claim that they need a 500+ mile range because they need to drive to Cornwall once a year. In general terms, a virtually all-electric road system will not be responsible for respiratory disease of those living en-route. The same will be said for buses and delivery vans which will no longer be sitting pumping out particulates for others to endure. The only issue will be whether this all-consuming desire to have one's own box that is on average probably used less than 10% of it's life, taking up space that may not really be available in a modern town/city based dwelling model.
With new legal powers to severely restrict the use of IC vehicles in built-up areas, the arrival of viable electric public transport may well make much of the argument in this thread redundant. It will be more cost-effective overall to provide free or low cost local transport to many or all members of the public.
 
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ivanhoe

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There have already been a number of services lost due to majority of users travelling on ENCTS passes and full or nearly full buses running at a loss. One partial solution could be with todays card technology restricting the free travel to local essential journeys only, which is probably what the originators of it were thinking of rather than ENCTS holders using them to travel further afield.
Can you name such services? Do you have evidence that ENCTS was the dominant reason as to why these services finished. Remember, ENCTS was approved by an Act of Parliament. Perhaps Parliament is to blame for not funding the scheme. It has no issues in providing funding for trains that the majority of people in UK don’t use.
What about having a flat fare rather than a free fare?
A modest fare such as 20p or 50p which the carrier gets to keep as well as the amount they now get? The oldies feel that they have paid and it would not break their bank.
In somewhere like London a pound or two could be put on an Oyster/Freedom pass and the flat fare be deducted as travel is made. In Hong Kong they have elderly persons Octopus cards for this reason just keep them topped up and 2HKD is deducted each trip with certain things being set to deduct nothing eg Star Ferries
i suspect cost of collection of 20p would mean a net fare income of at least 0. This would only work on a prepaid card outside of oyster land. You’d be surprised of the reaction from siblings and grand children of Older people if they took away ENCTS. They would think it is a disgraceful thing to do to their Granny, but not necessarily a bad thing to do to somebody else’s Granny. Such is life!
 

Typhoon

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How would ENCTS passengers going to their nearest general hospital manage if their pass was limited to 'local' travel. Many counties away from major conurbations have just one acute hospital which can be some distance away from many prospective patients. Take Norfolk for instance, there are three acute hospitals in the county, in Great Yarmouth, Norwich and Kings Lynn.
There are counties (East Sussex and Kent stand out as being near to me) where specialist services have been allocated to just one hospital in an area - so stroke services to one hospital, cancer to another, maternity to another because of a shortage of specialist doctors so even being able to get to the nearest hospital may not be enough. Whilst a patient may be able call upon the ambulance service (and they have suffered through funding reductions*), a partner visiting may not. There may also want to visit recuperating (or terminal) patients in care units or hospices (again, not necessarily local).

* - a neighbour going to hospital for exploratory tests on a hip was told to travel by public transport as she had two legs!
 

SCH117X

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Can you name such services? Do you have evidence that ENCTS was the dominant reason as to why these services finished. Remember, ENCTS was approved by an Act of Parliament. Perhaps Parliament is to blame for not funding the scheme. It has no issues in providing funding for trains that the majority of people in UK don’t use.
ENCTS payments to operators are made by the relevant council - in the case of North Yorkshire the low level of the payment has resulted in of services being axed by operators despite substantial loadings on many workings - direct services between York and Harrogate and Harrogate and Skipton both having been abandoned by two different operators each, and the Hull to Scarborough service (now split into two at Bridlington) has received press coverage in the past re a fully loaded bus running at a loss.
 

Dai Corner

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I wonder if there is a similar transport trades union personage to Mick Cash of the RMT who would voice his views on the likelihood of seeing union members jobs being put at risk by such proposals?

The Rail, Maritime and Transport Union do (claim to) represent bus workers.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/

RMT said:
The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers is a progressive, democratic and highly professional trade union, a fast growing union with more than 83,000 members from almost every sector of the transport industry - from the mainline and underground railways, shipping and offshore, buses and road freight.
 

Spamcan81

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I don't know about the rest of the UK, but in South Yorkshire the Pensioner fare used to be the same as a child fare - which was about 30p in 2008 - but has risen to 80p (i.e the child fare has gone up in line with roughly the cost of a third of a typical adult fare).

I'd be interested to see what revenues 80p per pensioner would bring in in 2019.



It's an incredibly expensive way of keeping elderly people active (and also you've got to wonder how active they are when sat on a bus).



I'd be a lot more in favour of the "carrot" of free bus tickets if it came with the "stick" of regular driving tests when people reach age sixty - given the damage that just one crash can cause. There were some scary sounding figures doing the rounds after the Prince Phillip smash last month re how many elderly people refuse to give up their cars.

(that said, I'm all for regular re-tests of all motorists - the requirements have changed a lot since people sat tests in the 1970s/1980s/1990s - people have forgotten a lot since they were seventeen - people have picked up a lot of bad habits over the decades - but I appreciate that this is a whole other discussion!



Part of the problem is that, now people have had over a decade of free travel, it'll be very hard to get them to accept paying *anything* - pensioners under seventy five might not have had any experience of paying for a OAP bus ticket - once people are used to freebies, the value that they put on the product is devalued.

For example, I read the Metro on a bus.train, it's an okay newspaper - I benefit from reading it - but if the bus/train company started charging a token amount (say half of the cost of a regular tabloid, maybe thirty pence?) then I'd resent that because I've never paid for a Metro and therefore don't place much "value" on the newspaper (despite all of the copies that I've read).

Same goes for car parking - now that people are used to parking for free at Retail Parks/ Out Of Town Malls, the idea of paying a whopping fifty pence to park in a city centre is enough to bring people out in a rash - once you give people something for nothing it becomes very hard to get them to pay money for it.

I think that, unfortunately, we've created a situation that will be very difficult to get out of - pensioners expect their freebies - pensioners are so used to the freebies that they don't consider a journey to be worth a quid - pensioners won't pay a quid - but bus companies get paid so little in reimbursement that even a bus full of pensioners isn't that lucrative for them - I don't think there's an easy answer (without seriously annoying a very vocal demographic who vote in large numbers and have high expectations of the kind of things they expect for nowt).

As someone in receipt of a pensioner's buss pass I'll admit to rather enjoying the free travel. I can now get into the nearest town to visit the bank etc. without having to take my car so that's of benefit to my wallet, the environment and other road users. On the other hand I'd gladly pay £1 to make that journey as it would still be a bargain.
 

Dai Corner

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As someone in receipt of a pensioner's buss pass I'll admit to rather enjoying the free travel. I can now get into the nearest town to visit the bank etc. without having to take my car so that's of benefit to my wallet, the environment and other road users. On the other hand I'd gladly pay £1 to make that journey as it would still be a bargain.

Would you pay, say, £100 a year for it? The equivalent of two £1 journeys a week.
 

Spamcan81

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Would you pay, say, £100 a year for it? The equivalent of two £1 journeys a week.

Currently on average I use the bus around once a week but if out and back counted as two journeys then I'd be doing my two journeys a week and that doesn't seem so bad a deal.
 
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