Last Friday (17 Jan) I joined 1P43 1400 Norwich - Liverpool Street at Colchester and was surprised when a pair of 321's turned up. Is this a common occurrence? Interestingly it was a really good run and arrived early at Liverpool Street though not with the facilities normally expected on this line.
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Class 321 on Norwich - Liverpool Street train
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Given that a 321 is a 1990s equivalent of a class 350/450 Desiro, it's a fair substitute as they go for longer journeys than the 2 hours 'ish from Norwich to London, e.g. to Euston from Crewe (2 1/2 hrs), from Birmingham (2 1/4 hrs), to Waterloo from Bournemouth (2 hrs), from Weymouth (3 hrs).
Not quite, the 1st class ‘offer’ on the Norwich servces (except the evening booked 321 diagram), is complimentary refreshments, WiFi, air conditioning, tables to work on, power sockets. When 321s substitute, (unless a Renatus unit is provided and as only around 25% of that fleet are refurbished then you will only get WiFi, air con and tables), none of the above is provided plus there are only 32 First Class seats in an 8 car 321 compared to over 70 on a hauled set. Yesterday the two sets provided were non refurbished, as is quite often the case, so if you have a First Class ticket when a 321 is provided you run the risk of not only not getting the extras you’ve paid for but not even a seat in the class you’ve paid for. Yes substitution is better than cancellation but it’s not the same. Plus every substitution in the peak means that a couple of actual suburban services will almost certainly be short formed 8 vice 12 or 4 vice 8 to free up the units to run the Norwich.
Well in the case of 1st class, there would be a case for a full (or partial) refund of the difference, but most passengers are travelling standard class and to them at least being able to travel is more important than the details of the rolling stock especially if it runs to time. The fact is though that there's nothing unique about making a two-hour journey into/out of London in an outer-suburban EMU. As I said, it happens on other main lines.
dk1
Veteran Member
Dusty bins have been commonplace for years on the diagram consisting of the 0625, 1130 & 1630 down with the corresponding 0900, 1400 & 2200 up workings all SX. Regulars avoid these workings wherever possible as have come to expect the 321s when short of IC sets.
Class 170101
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These are covered by Liverpool Street crew as well.
306024
Established Member
Drivers are from both Liverpool St and Ipswich on this circuit, who both sign 321s. No Norwich drivers involved which is why it is the chosen one when short of an Intercity set.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
There is when you've been promised a MkIII set with a buffet car!
Better than cancellation but not really fair to shrug it off either.
As has been said by many here, a ticket entitles the holder to travel on the route that they have paid for. With the exception of the 1st class rebate if no seat is available, there's not even a gaurantee of a seat. There's never been a promise of any particular type of rolling stock and refreshments referred to in timetables are subject to availability of facilities, staff and (food) stock. The only real shortfalls for a standard tickholder would be if unsuitable rolling stock was provided, e.g. no toilets, - or if the train arrived late, (which the OP has confirmed didn't happen). If this was a few years ago, GA could rightly be criticised for providing a class 315 (i.e. no toilets but probably late as well as they are limited to 75mph).
bramling
Veteran Member
"Our mainline Intercity line from Norwich to London (and vice versa London to Norwich) offers a Quiet Zone to give customers who wish to travel without excess noise, the opportunity to sit in a quiet carriage away from mobile phones and audio devices."
"Enjoy a great selection of hot and cold drinks, freshly made sandwiches, hot savoury snacks, cakes, biscuits and confectionery from the buffet on our Intercity mainline trains between Norwich, intermediate stations and London Liverpool Street."
Whilst I agree this doesn't constitute a *promise*, it's not unreasonable for passengers to be peeved if features which are clearly advertised fail to be provided.
That's true - but as an exception, running an EMU (and keeping time) instead of a complete cancellation is not an unreasonable action, especially as there is a 'promise' (in contractual terms at least) to run trains to the published timetable. Of course, we don't know the reason for the substitution (but I'm sure there are some GA haters here who could put up some conspiracy theory).
bramling
Veteran Member
Personally on the couple of occasions I've done Norwich-London I've deliberately arranged to be on the evening trip which is booked for 3x321s. A good opportunity to experience units being worked flat out for long periods.
In any case, unlike something like a 700, I don't find the 321s too bad at all in their original form.
dk1
Veteran Member
Fresh IC set was provided for 09:00 ex-Norwich this morning by the looks of things so the 06:25 'Bins' returned empty back up road approx 08:45. Full 1st class, catering & quiet zones all provided as advertised on that diagram once again 
I know the GEML well from the '70s. I wouldn't mind a trip on a class 700 up to Colchester where I used to commute from just to experience how much faster a train with 5MW traction accelerated compared with 1830kW of a 305 or even 2523kW of a 309 set. If one of the new trains fails in a couple of years, there will be an Aventra with 3+2 seating to slot in its place.
bramling
Veteran Member
I guess the issue with 321s is that they become unpleasant when starting to get crowded, which notwithstanding the issues over catering et al, would understandably get backs up. The times I’ve taken the 1930 Norwich to Liverpool Street it’s been more or less carriage to self for the complete journey, for which 321s are perfectly satisfactory.
Whilst I’m sure the 5MW would be interesting, as well as good from a line capacity point of view, it wouldn’t be as fun as 3x DC-motored 321s working hard being driven by a keen driver. What with the non-perfect track (especially at the London end) and many changes of speed, it’s actually quite an experience if that’s what floats one’s boat - sitting in the motor car with as many windows as possible open naturally!
Something like the Northern Line is quite boring since the performance of the trains was uncapped. Even though it’s faster in many places since the resignalling, it doesn’t *feel* such...
306024
Established Member
The 19.30 Norwich to Liverpool St always has a keen driver. It’s a Liverpool St driver going home
The only slightly frustrating thing about substituting 321s for a hauled set is on Saturdays when ideally a 12 car 321 should be provided rather than just 8.
Kite159
Veteran Member
The 19.30 Norwich to Liverpool St always has a keen driver. It’s a Liverpool St driver going home
I'm hoping to experience that in March time (mainly for the novelty of 321s from Norwich).
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As for the 321s replacing a 90+Mk3 set earlier in the day, where it isn't ideal for a passenger position (either in first or standard class*) it is slightly better than that service being cancelled with the next service being busier. No doubt for those holding flexible tickets who are not limited in time they can wait 30 minutes for the next service.
(* i.e 3+2 seating, no tables 'you can work from', no plug sockets)
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The 321s aren't really *suitable* either though. Especially when busy.
As I said, better than a cancellation (providing advance ticket holders were given the choice of taking the next one), but not really a "stop whining" either.
If LNER (hypothetically) stuck a 365 on a Leeds train you'd never hear the end of it. It's bad enough when the EMT set comes out to play!
A few of us on here would love it
Come to think of it didn't 365s fill in for a few days when the 91s were withdrawn following an incident at Sandy?
A few of us on here would love it
Come to think of it didn't 365s fill in for a few days when the 91s were withdrawn following an incident at Sandy?
365's along with pairs of 317's and single 321/9's too.
bramling
Veteran Member
I don’t think 365s did, but 317s certainly made York and 321/9s certainly made London.
2x365 *did* make York around the time they were introduced when WAGN ran a special publicity run. I think it was 365540 and 541, the final units built at York.
365s to Leeds isn’t so fanciful though. In the 1990s WAGN were seriously planning to run a regular service to Doncaster using 365s, albeit with their original slightly plusher interior of course. It never happened, perhaps for the best as the GN would probably now have a service like Northampton does with all its London services formed of short EMUs stuffed with longer distance passengers on cheapskate tickets!
dk1
Veteran Member
And after Hatfield Anglia Railways 170s briefly operated to Leeds.A few of us on here would love it
Come to think of it didn't 365s fill in for a few days when the 91s were withdrawn following an incident at Sandy?
Do GA still sell really cheap advance tickets on the booked 321 diagram?
I've heard from people who were quite upset when they turned up and found the 321's. I'd have expected them it discourage the use of that train for people going all the way to Norwich, especially as an intercity set runs quite close either side.
I've heard from people who were quite upset when they turned up and found the 321's. I'd have expected them it discourage the use of that train for people going all the way to Norwich, especially as an intercity set runs quite close either side.
dk1
Veteran Member
You seem to get the odd gripe about the 1930up considering neither the 1900 or 2000 are particularly heavily loaded. In the opposite direction the same cannot be said for the 1700 'East Anglian' or the 1730. You get what You pay for in the latter example I'm afraid.
Kite159
Veteran Member
They do have a habit of making it to Weymouth. I believe before the timetable change last May the service from Weymouth which called at Basingstoke around 14:35 quite often threw out a single 450 on Fridays
Can't say I blame those on 'cheapskate' tickets between stations north of Northampton and Euston personally - cheaper tickets and superior rolling stock to the faster offering.
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