Not offered Penalty Fare - straight to intended prosecution?

Hi guys,
I commute four times a week from Fratton to Cosham station (2 stops - £4.30 return) as part of my placement as a student nurse. On this occasion a couple of weeks ago I arrived at Fratton to find queues at the ticket machines were longer than usual and after waiting in the queue, my train pulled into the station. There are no ticket gates at Fratton yet so I boarded the train and went to find the guard. I asked him if i could get a return ticket and he attempted a contactless payment with my debit card. He said the payment didn't go through and that I could sort it out at the Cosham as we were just pulling in. (the card worked fine for me later though)

I left the train and approached a member of station staff and explained that I had attempted to purchase a ticket from the guard but the payment had failed. I showed him my return tickets for the previous 3 days and he took my details. He said SWR would be in touch to sort this out and that I should purchase a single to get back after work.

Just over a week later, I have a letter saying they have sufficient evidence to prosecute for "an offence or offences committed".

It gives me the option of settling out of court for £90 plus the £3.50 fare within 21 days - or a court summons.

Are these really the only options available to me? I have ticket receipts saved for the past four months as well as signed time sheets of my attendance at placement (as I get travel reimbursed) and this is the first time I have not been able to get a ticket before boarding. Could this serve as mitigating evidence?

As a student nurse, this threat of a criminal record worries me about my future employment prospects and I feel the fine is way disproportionate to my actions. Money is tight already and this is really going to make me struggle.

Any advice? Thanks guys

Welcome to the forum!
On reading your account of what happened it does seem slightly unreasonable that you had your details taken for potential prosecution rather than being given a penalty fare. It is however important to note that there is no automatic right to a Penalty Fare - SWR are fully within their rights to not offer one and prosecute instead, even if it seems a little harsh. In addition a Penalty Fare cannot be offered retrospectively, so that option is out of the window I'm afraid.

tjs4000 said:

Just over a week later, I have a letter saying they have sufficient evidence to prosecute for "an offence or offences committed".

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There are two main pieces of legislation that SWR are likely to use to prosecute you under:

- Bylaw 18 of the 2005 Railway Bylaws: This makes it an offence to board a train for travel without a ticket, if ticket issuing facilities were available at your departure station. A prosecution under this legislation would almost certainly succeed - Fratton has ticket machines, and unfortunately being in a queue is not a valid reason to board without a ticket. Rest assured though that a Bylaw offence is a non-record able offence, similar to a speeding offence.

- Section 3(a) of 1889 Regulation of Railways Act: The Act states it is an offence to travel without buying a ticket and with intent to avoid paying. This would give you a criminal record that is spent after 1 year. However, you say you tried to purchase a ticket from the guard, then when you got off at Cosham you approached a member of staff and presumably offered to buy then as well. I really can't see how SWR could show you had intent to avoid your fare, so I reckon the chances of them prosecuting under this are extremely small.

It is very likely to be a Bylaw 18 offence if it does go to Court.

tjs4000 said:

It gives me the option of settling out of court for £90 plus the £3.50 fare within 21 days - or a court summons.

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If I were in your position I would strongly recommend chalking it up to experience and paying the £93.50 to settle out of court. If this goes to court a Bylaw 18 prosecution will almost certainly succeed. While you won't get a criminal record, you will be paying a fine + costs, which will be a lot more than £93.50.

tjs4000 said:

Are these really the only options available to me? I have ticket receipts saved for the past four months as well as signed time sheets of my attendance at placement (as I get travel reimbursed) and this is the first time I have not been able to get a ticket before boarding. Could this serve as mitigating evidence?

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Unfortunately they are your only options: pay to settle out of court, or go to court and risk being found guilty. Buying tickets on other occasions is not going to change SWR's mind: only what happened on this occasion is relevant. Believe it or not, while they didn't give you a Penalty Fare, they have given you some discretion by offering to settle out of court. This isn't an automatic right either, so the fact you've been offered one suggests they don't see you as a serial fare dodger.

tjs4000 said:

As a student nurse, this threat of a criminal record worries me about my future employment prospects and I feel the fine is way disproportionate to my actions. Money is tight already and this is really going to make me struggle.

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If you pay the £93.50, there is absolutely ZERO chance of a criminal record. An out of court settlement is exactly that - no legal proceedings are involved, so it's just between you and SWR. If you let this go to court, you will inevitably (sorry) end up paying more than £93.50 in fines + costs, and there is always the risk of a criminal record no matter how small.

As a fellow student, I completely understand that it is a lot of money. Sadly I feel it is your best option and you should try and pay it, even if it means borrowing some money off a friend. Hope this all helps!

tjs4000 said:

Hi guys,
I commute four times a week from Fratton to Cosham station (2 stops - £4.30 return) as part of my placement as a student nurse. On this occasion a couple of weeks ago I arrived at Fratton to find queues at the ticket machines were longer than usual and after waiting in the queue, my train pulled into the station. There are no ticket gates at Fratton yet so I boarded the train and went to find the guard. I asked him if i could get a return ticket and he attempted a contactless payment with my debit card. He said the payment didn't go through and that I could sort it out at the Cosham as we were just pulling in. (the card worked fine for me later though)

I left the train and approached a member of station staff and explained that I had attempted to purchase a ticket from the guard but the payment had failed. I showed him my return tickets for the previous 3 days and he took my details. He said SWR would be in touch to sort this out and that I should purchase a single to get back after work.

Just over a week later, I have a letter saying they have sufficient evidence to prosecute for "an offence or offences committed".

It gives me the option of settling out of court for £90 plus the £3.50 fare within 21 days - or a court summons.

Are these really the only options available to me? I have ticket receipts saved for the past four months as well as signed time sheets of my attendance at placement (as I get travel reimbursed) and this is the first time I have not been able to get a ticket before boarding. Could this serve as mitigating evidence?

As a student nurse, this threat of a criminal record worries me about my future employment prospects and I feel the fine is way disproportionate to my actions. Money is tight already and this is really going to make me struggle.

Any advice? Thanks guys

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Did you find the guard before or after the train left? This may be a crucial difference.

I can add little to what Any_Permitted has usefully said.

When you chose to join a train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities were available you committed a criminal offence. A Penalty Fare is a lesser resolution available to passengers who make mistakes but the train company is not obliged to offer this. The existence of queues does not excuse the offence. The purchase of previous tickets does not either.

Your conduct in going to find the guard will make it likely that you would not be charged with the more serious offence of attempt to avoid payment (section 5 Regulation of Railways Act) but instead byelaw 18 (1) (joining a train without a ticket).

It’s notable that a byelaw offence can show up on an enhanced DBS check so if you wish to bring the matter to a close, you now need to promptly pay the £93.50 to bring an end to the matter without further formality.

Did you approach the ticket office or were there RPIs on the platform your train arrived at? Just asking because it would seem harsh to be threatened with prosecution after you've crossed the bridge to the ticket office on the opposite platform to actively seek to pay your fare when it would be less physical effort to just leave the station on the unbarriered platform your train would have arrived at.

island said:

It’s notable that a byelaw offence can show up on an enhanced DBS check so if you wish to bring the matter to a close, you now need to promptly pay the £93.50 to bring an end to the matter without further formality.

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I agree that paying the settlement is the way to go. However, is that correct? I don't recall reading before that Byelaw offences would appear on any kind of DBS check.

Even if they would, though, it's likely that in the absence of another offence of any kind it would be filtered (being a sole minor offence). A friend has a caution for drunk and disorderly, and that is.

Does the letter ask for your version of events?

Bletchleyite said:

I agree that paying the settlement is the way to go. However, is that correct? I don't recall reading before that Byelaw offences would appear on any kind of DBS check.

Even if they would, though, it's likely that in the absence of another offence of any kind it would be filtered (being a sole minor offence). A friend has a caution for drunk and disorderly, and that is.

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Due to the minor crime severity this wont be recordable anywhere only place would probably be on SWR records. I assume you were expecting an UFN for your journey but have been charged that plus investigation costs.

Thanks for your help guys,

Any_Permitted said:

If I were in your position I would strongly recommend chalking it up to experience and paying the £93.50 to settle out of court. If this goes to court a Bylaw 18 prosecution will almost certainly succeed. While you won't get a criminal record, you will be paying a fine + costs, which will be a lot more than £93.50.

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Thanks Any_Permitted
I think that is what I'm going to do. Unfair as it seems - I did physically board the train without a valid ticket and they would therefore find me guilty of that. Glad to know that even if it did go to court, I wouldn't get a criminal record over a missed £4.30 fare!

ForTheLoveOf said:

Did you find the guard before or after the train left? This may be a crucial difference.

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Hi ForTheLoveOf,
I boarded the train in the middle and immediately started walking to the back of the train when the guard announced what carriage he was in. I reached the carriage when the train was at Hilsea station (approx 3-4 min after boarding)

Harlequin said:

Did you approach the ticket office or were there RPIs on the platform your train arrived at?

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Thanks Harlequin, I approached a member of staff on the westbound platform who was in a high vis. Not sure what his role was but he didn't approach me first. At no point did I cross over the platform or attempt to leave the station

30907 said:

Does the letter ask for your version of events?

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Hi 30907, No the only person I was able to give my story to was the original staff member that I approached who wrote my details down in a notebook. The letter gives me the option of cash settlement or court summons - That's it.

To my knowledge one machine was out of service due to construction work on the new ticket barriers - causing a delay but I don't think that would help my case unless I go to court which isn't ideal. I approached the staff member at Cosham (not sure if he was an inspector or just station staff) first without anyone approaching me - again something I thought would mitigate against my case.
This train was the 06:59 and the next train to Cosham 07:32.

I would simply pay it and move on - if your career is the most important thing to you then this is the way forward.

You can um and ar about it but think what the monetary value to you is now compared to what it could cost you in future - thats the most important part

The best thing to do here is for you to pay it to being an end to the matter. Then after that, if you wish, make a formal complaint to customer services on the basis that there were not enough ticket selling facilities (TVM out of order) and that a member of staff had authorised sale of a ticket but his machine didn't work, so upon following his instructions you were treated harshly and that they have been both unfair and not provided enough ticket selling facilities. You would then have the option to ask them to look at their decision again if you didn't get a good outcome then take it to the Rail Ombudsman.

tjs4000 said:

I commute four times a week from Fratton to Cosham station (2 stops - £4.30 return) as part of my placement as a student nurse.

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Others have addressed the main point of the thread but if you are travelling 4 times a week, you should be getting a season ticket, which will avoid the queuing problem for the rest of your placement.

A weekly ticket is £16.90 so more or less the same price, however if your placement is longer than a month and you can stump up the money in advance, you can get a ticket for the exact number of days you need to travel, which would bring the average daily cost down to £3.75.

gray1404 said:

The best thing to do here is for you to pay it to being an end to the matter. Then after that, if you wish, make a formal complaint to customer services on the basis that there were not enough ticket selling facilities (TVM out of order) and that a member of staff had authorised sale of a ticket but his machine didn't work, so upon following his instructions you were treated harshly and that they have been both unfair and not provided enough ticket selling facilities. You would then have the option to ask them to look at their decision again if you didn't get a good outcome then take it to the Rail Ombudsman.

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I would do this. SWR have been terrible with maintenance of their TVMs and from looking at their social media feed many get caught in a similar situation as you - arriving at the station as normal, but having to decide between missing their train or risking sanctions for not having a ticket.

I think this is incredibly unfair given you clearly were trying to pay for your journey (THREE times); so do pay up so there is no risk of this getting further, but do indeed take it up with their customer services and beyond if necessary.

I am actually going to a meeting tomorrow organised by my local MP with SWR management and I might well mention this problem of strict application of rules in the event of faulty TVMs, if nobody else does.

The bottom line here is how long you arrived at the station before the train and whether or not that was sufficient. If you queued for under 5 minutes (assuming you were travelling during the defined peak period for your station) your case is weak. If you were actually in the queue for more than 5 minutes then you could attempt to make the company back down, e.g. as gray1404 suggests, or by a polite but firm reply setting out how the company's own failings led to the situation. All franchised train companies agree to use their "reasonable endeavours" to avoid queues of more than 5 minutes at peak times, so you can also ask the DfT to open an investigation (which would tie up management time) - viz. was it a breach of the train company's franchise agreement to choose to deploy staff to check tickets and attempt to penalise passengers at one station instead of deploying them to sell tickets at the nearby station known to have reduced facilities?

Bletchleyite said:

I agree that paying the settlement is the way to go. However, is that correct? I don't recall reading before that Byelaw offences would appear on any kind of DBS check.

Even if they would, though, it's likely that in the absence of another offence of any kind it would be filtered (being a sole minor offence). A friend has a caution for drunk and disorderly, and that is.

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Even if it's likely to be filtered, it would still need to be declared in case it isn't filtered. But are byelaw offences recordable on a criminal record??

Surreytraveller said:

Even if it's likely to be filtered, it would still need to be declared in case it isn't filtered. But are byelaw offences recordable on a criminal record??

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Not to the best of my knowledge, no.

I do recall someone saying previously that on some occasions courts do accidentally record bylaw offences onto people's criminal record due to clerical errors.

323235 said:

I do recall someone saying previously that on some occasions courts do accidentally record bylaw offences onto people's criminal record due to clerical errors.

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Which is why there is the right to see what information is recorded about you, and the right to have it rectified exists. The NHS is one of the worst organisations for incorrect data .

Although not itself a get out in itself, it is a good idea in these circumstances to photograph the ticket office queue, a email with a photo can sometimes sort these situations out, and something like this can be a useful space filler for local press looking for a cheap ready made story.

philthetube said:

Although not itself a get out in itself, it is a good idea in these circumstances to photograph the ticket office queue, a email with a photo can sometimes sort these situations out, and something like this can be a useful space filler for local press looking for a cheap ready made story.

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Reading the post, tjs4000 only makes reference to the customer operated ticket machines, not an queue in the ticket office! So was the office staffed that day?
In the past I have known passengers to queue at machines, whilst a clerk is available, somehow people think machines are faster, they are not, when I ran a booking office, I experimented with the old "Quickfare" machines, I found that I could issue 2 tickets in the space of a minute, because I knew what I was doing and the machines where simple! Where as on the old APTIS I could issue tickets a lot faster, and, if I knew the passenger I could have their ticket issued before they arrive at the window!
I feel modern ticket machines cause problems, perhaps there is a case for simple machines with top/local destinations at some stations!

Waldgrun said:

Reading the post, tjs4000 only makes reference to the customer operated ticket machines, not an queue in the ticket office! So was the office staffed that day?

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Not only your valid points, but AIUI the detailed further explanation (in post #9) was that ‘a ticket machine’ was out of action due to the gateline installation works. If the other two external machines were still available, as well as maybe one or two ticket office desks, the overall scenario wouldn’t be quite as straightforward as some here seem to be thinking.

Waldgrun said:

Reading the post, tjs4000 only makes reference to the customer operated ticket machines, not an queue in the ticket office! So was the office staffed that day?
In the past I have known passengers to queue at machines, whilst a clerk is available, somehow people think machines are faster, they are not, when I ran a booking office, I experimented with the old "Quickfare" machines, I found that I could issue 2 tickets in the space of a minute, because I knew what I was doing and the machines where simple! Where as on the old APTIS I could issue tickets a lot faster, and, if I knew the passenger I could have their ticket issued before they arrive at the window!
I feel modern ticket machines cause problems, perhaps there is a case for simple machines with top/local destinations at some stations!

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my local station used to have a load of tickets printed already for the common requests. I'd get the 08.10 but I'd see the ticket print time as something link 7.30. I'd walk up towards the window and she'd have the ticket in her hand already.

gray1404 said:

my local station used to have a load of tickets printed already for the common requests. I'd get the 08.10 but I'd see the ticket print time as something link 7.30. I'd walk up towards the window and she'd have the ticket in her hand already.

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I mean, if the train service goes up the wall or something happens and nobody buys any tickets that's a lot of non-issues to do and potentially some awkward questions to answer!

These days the amount of people who pay by card would surely make that obsolete, as obviously the ticket will only print once payment is complete and it's quite a bit harder to charge someone's card when they're not there, than it is to pretend they've paid cash before they arrive

gray1404 said:

my local station used to have a load of tickets printed already for the common requests. I'd get the 08.10 but I'd see the ticket print time as something link 7.30. I'd walk up towards the window and she'd have the ticket in her hand already.

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I used to do that - had a load of One Day Travelcards ready for the first off-peak train. Back in those days, most people paid with cash which made the process easier. I couldn't have done that if everyone paid by card