Will extra Virgin services need to pass the not primarily abstractive test? I ask only because they are being bid by the franchises operator. Although given their application is to the ORR then maybe they will need to pass that test?
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Virgin Plans Extra Liverpool Lime Street Services from 10 June 2019
- Thread starter Jorge Da Silva
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Will extra Virgin services need to pass the not primarily abstractive test? I ask only because they are being bid by the franchises operator. Although given their application is to the ORR then maybe they will need to pass that test?
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Virgin Trains are not an open access operator and are not subject to this test.
So could they have proposed whatever stops they wished then? Or would feedback have to be sought from the other WCML franchise?
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I don’t know about that, but they do not have to satisfy the not primarily abstractive test.
In the down direction the xx40 Manchester is probably too close behind - Stafford probably just works because linespeed through the station is slower and the stop only costs 4min. There is something to be said for keeping the stopping pattern consistent, too.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Other operators can object.
If DfT has not asked Virgin to run the extra services (I doubt they are in the service spec), they will be run at Virgin's risk.
That's how the Wrexham service started out, although it has now found its way into the franchise spec.
Blackpool and Shrewsbury were added to the spec once DfT requested the services.
NR/ORR can refuse them if there are no paths or the performance risk is too high.
The Planner
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I expect this had to go through the SOAR panel (sale of access rights) and it was given the ok.
Phil from Mon
Member
But of course coming back the other way is almost always via Warrington.
evergreenadam
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I like the idea of a local Preston to Crewe service via Newton-le-Willows and Earlestown. Potential to open a new station at Golborne too, subject to pathing restrictions.
Perhaps the Liverpool Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service operated by class 319s could be extended to Crewe as a first step to creating better links to Crewe from the north.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I agree. FNW proposed that, but couldn't run it as the only stock they had was the Class 309s without CDL which weren't allowed on a new service. Now there are 25kV EMUs becoming spare (or already spare) all over the place it seems a sensible one to add.
Kettledrum
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Lichfield and Tamworth, and arguable also Nuneaton have relatively few fast Virgin trains services to London at certain times of the day. Some of the peak Virgin services from Liverpool do stop at Lichfield and Tamworth, so I'm wondering why these new services can't stop there too.
The journey time on the Desiro service from those places is pretty competitive though .they take the fast lines south of Rugby. Once the trains get lengthened in the future it will be probably better than it was prior to 2008 when the original Virgin loco hauled services called on the Trent.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Once the capacity issues on the LNR service are solved in May, other than for those who prefer Virgin for reasons of prestige or who wish to travel First Class[1], isn't that hourly service better anyway? At 110mph there's precious little difference in journey times and it's orders of magnitude cheaper.
[1] What LNR refers to as First Class does not in my view meet that prestige. Amusingly £10 upgrades were being offered today, for accommodation of a lower standard than the table at the rear end of the unit I was occupying in the 350/1 which was coupled to a /3 (so 2+2 throughout and power sockets in Standard). £10 for a set of curtains and a less comfortable seat? Get lost.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I agree. Apart from the overcrowding issue and the occasional 350/2 showing up, I think the Trent Valley stations have the best service they have ever enjoyed - at a very attractive price, too.
8 coaches, convert the 1st to 2+1 (or just use 350/4s on it when they arrive) and a tea trolley[1], and you're sorted.
[1] There's nothing anywhere near most of the TV stations and the small cafes on some of them have short opening hours.
VT 390
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I agree that it is not good value but for those who want to increase their chances of getting a seat it can be good.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
When I boarded the train (an 8-car ex Brum) at Rugby there were no other people in my coach. At Northampton, two boarded. Not exactly busy
I see your point on the Trent Valley, but with the coming of 8-car running that shouldn't really apply any more, and most weekday peak south WCML services (south of Northampton) are not crowded enough to justify that either as long as you're not too lazy to walk all the way along (except from Watford, Bushey or Harrow southbound in the morning). As for short formations off-peak, that needs to be packed in.
FWIW, though, if they fitted proper First Class to the 350s, i.e. you could guarantee a 2+1 arrangement with legroom at least equivalent to the priority seating in Standard with the fare multiplier as it presently is, I would upgrade quite frequently!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
FWIW, I think Siemens intended those end sections by the cab to be 1st rather than just generously spaced Standard. They are on the 360s.
sufian123
Member
When should we know if it’s been approved or rejected?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because it's a regional express! Its main purpose is to shift short to medium-distance passengers around. All they're doing is creating journey opportunities and reducing congestion at New St by tacking a couple of regional expresses together. Think Liverpool-Norwich and the likes.
Some people will, yes - it will without a doubt abstract from the student market and the likes who are using Megabus and NatEx at present, just as the Trent Valley service has. Similarly retired people with all the time in the world but a desire not to change trains. Also consider intermediate journeys - due to the present service pattern MKC to Liverpool takes just over 2 hours by VT, with LNR a through service would take just over three, and with the added opportunity of getting off at South Parkway that could for some mean a very similar end to end journey time.
Primarily of increasing the operational reliability of New St by removing terminating trains from it.
That is a justifiable fear. The south WCML is reasonably reliable (i.e. cancellations are near unheard of other than the Southern) if sometimes a little unpunctual, with a policy of "run it all, as late as it needs to run" being what generally operates, which ensures adequate peak capacity. That policy I suspect won't work going forward, and we'll see a load of cancellations and skip stops to try to keep things about on time.
Kite159
Veteran Member
And on the refurbished 450s.
Personally I'm amazed and impressed that they will be able to get even moreMore out of the existing fleet. Thought the Blackpool might be yer lot. But still more seems to be possible.
It will be quite a thing for Liverpool really if it comes to fruition as for some of the hours in the day they'll have the two expresses per hour to London which some felt was deserved. Plus the LNR service (granted via West Mids) so quite a change all in all should it happen.
It will be quite a thing for Liverpool really if it comes to fruition as for some of the hours in the day they'll have the two expresses per hour to London which some felt was deserved. Plus the LNR service (granted via West Mids) so quite a change all in all should it happen.
childwallblues
Established Member
Certainly the passenger information boards at Line Street will look a bit different from May with the additional trains plus Rugeley Trent Valley, Birmingham Internatonal and London Euston for LNWR, Chester and Wrexham General for TfW and Glasgow Central and Oxenholme for TPE.
dk1
Veteran Member
I wouldn't imagine catering trolleys will be making a return anytime soon if ever. I was surprised when LM did away with them particularly on the Crewe services. Was a shame as they where really starting to develop that longer distance route.
Kettledrum
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I've had some really bad experiences with the LNWR service. The advertised journey times with LNWR from London to Tamworth are around 1 hr 28 compared with the Virgins 1 hr 02, but the LNWR services have been short-formed, over-flowing with passengers and have run much slower than timetabled. One excuse was having to wait at Milton Keynes to change drivers, but there is no new driver waiting to take over because another service has been delayed.
Sometimes Virgin services are delayed too, trespasses on the line being a common reason, but you always have a seat and even if you're delayed you're still faster than the LNWR time-tabled timing.
Yes, the Trent Valley services are the best they have ever been, and that's reflected in increased passenger numbers, but additional fast Virgin services would be better than the current unreliable LNWR services. Why couldn't or wouldn't Virgin want these extra stops?
Serving St. Helens sounds a good idea but what about platform lengths? I read that selective door opening on a Pendolino is limited to isolating three coaches, meaning the other eight (or six) must be platformed. Also there's the car parking issue - TPE switched from St. Helens Jn to Lea Green because of parking capacity at the former but now I believe there are problems at Lea Green. If these can be overcome then I'm sure St. Helens folk would welcome a London service.
It'd be nice and Merseytravel are on record somewhere wanting at least one service going that way a day . The SDO only gets used on 11 cars at the moment and yes the car parking is now an issue at Lea Green, it's rammed now, and SHJ is half empty now it's been extended. It would be a status thing though in all honesty, I can't see what difference one service a day would make. Three or four yes, but not 1.
And to the people asking why can't these services stop at station X on the way. What you've got to remember is that they are flighted into Euston to optimise the crossovers at Ledburn and Bourne End crossovers, where LNR do a lot of moves from Fast to Slow. By stopping trains, you are adding conflicts to those crossover times and it can have knock on effects on whatever is behind either train. For instance, the xx20 from Euston will be quickly catching an xx13 that crosses at Ledburn. An xx09 from Liverpool may clash if it has additionally stopped somewhere, and results in the xx20 being delayed as well. And even others further back.
What services are planned between Liverpool and Rugeley only? Are there many?
childwallblues
Established Member
0636 am via New Street
But the London Northwestern franchise will be able to lengthen the Trent Valley service as early as May due to rerouting away from Stoke. So more seats would be available in the future.
The thing with the current VHF timetable on the fast lines is that it's not designed to stop at many halts along the way. It's say 3 stops on a Liverpool or a Manchester to keep the journey times ultra low to complete with air and other methods for business travel. It's never going to be a situation like on the East Coast while the VHF timetable remains (i.e. up until at least HS2 opening in 2026). Much of the fast line has a train every 3 minutes, so you would struggle to insert stops.
Stop them at Tamworth and Lichfield and they have to be routed off the fastlines onto the slow lines all the way from Amington Junction to Lichfield North Junction and factor in 2 minutes stops at the two stations. That's gonna be quite a time penalty Vs the typical off-peak journey times today. The timetable does include peak services for Trent Valley stations, typically giving them 2 trains per hour to London in the morning peak,and 2 trains per hour back in the evening.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And as I said, as a whole package, once the overcrowding issue is sorted, the LNR service provides the best service (as an overall package of frequency, connectivity and price) those stations have ever had since the day they opened.
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