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Thinking about Liverpool Street

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tom73

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Liverpool Street Station is a busy London terminus where platforms rarely remain empty for more than a few minutes before another train filled with happy eager commuters rolls in.
However, prior to the 1960's there were direct trains from far flung places such as Lowestoft and Hunstanton. Packed holiday expresses is one description I have read.
How did all these trains manage to slot in with the plethora of local services? Steam hauled services of the 1950's and early 1960's logically took rather longer to reverse than today's push and pull electric tin cans.
 
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edwin_m

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The holiday expresses would probably not have run at the busiest times for commuter trains. And most long-distance routes ran at much lower frequency so the total of long distance trains may not have been much different from what runs to Norwich alone today. Many of the Liverpool Street commuter services were electrified in the 1950s so loco movements off suburban trains would have been much rarer. And Liverpool Street formerly had loco sidings right at the platform ends so the loco moves caused much less disruption than if they had had to go to and from a depot further out.
 

The Crab

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I understand that the turn round of the commuter services in steam days was usually very smart - the train would be ready to go before the passengers had finished loading.
 

AM9

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In my commuting days ('70s), apart from a couple of through trains from Norwich/Yarmouth/Lowestoft,beyond Colchester (i.e. beyond Colchester where the main line wires ended), there was the boat train from Harwich Parkeston Ferry, which was not a commuter train at all.
Bear in mind that local services on the main line to Shenfield, Chemsford and Southend on Sea comprised EMUs from the '50s which all used the East Side, platforms 10-18 at Liverpool St.
The West Side, platforms 1-9 contained the West Anglia suburban services and those to Chingford, which by the '50s were run using class N7 0-6-2Ts. The long distance/outer suburban trains (including non-electric Main Line) were run with Britannias, B17s, and some other steam locos, but diesels were beginning to take over, (class 40s & class 31s).
 

30907

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The core summer weekday offpeak steam express service was 1 Clacton and 1 Norwich per hour, 1 East Suffolk per 3 hours, 1 Lynn per 2 hours, plus the boat trains. I may have missed some (Cambridge stoppers?) but this left a bit of wriggle-room for the Saturday extras (and the odd weekday seaside special, but I don't think they started from LST.).
 

ChiefPlanner

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I understand that the turn round of the commuter services in steam days was usually very smart - the train would be ready to go before the passengers had finished loading.

The Jazz services on the GE managed 24 tph with steam - very smart workings with something like 8 min turnrounds - including attaching / detaching locomotives - with a good number crossing on the flat at Stratford ! - with mechanical signalling. (pre - 1946) , hugely impressive.

If not very comfortable.
 

AM9

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The core summer weekday offpeak steam express service was 1 Clacton and 1 Norwich per hour, 1 East Suffolk per 3 hours, 1 Lynn per 2 hours, plus the boat trains. I may have missed some (Cambridge stoppers?) but this left a bit of wriggle-room for the Saturday extras (and the odd weekday seaside special, but I don't think they started from LST.).
Maybe they started from Stratford on the 'quiet' platforms, (the old 9-13 ISTR). The locos would have prepared at 30A anyway.
 

AM9

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The Jazz services on the GE managed 24 tph with steam - very smart workings with something like 8 min turnrounds - including attaching / detaching locomotives - with a good number crossing on the flat at Stratford ! - with mechanical signalling. (pre - 1946) , hugely impressive.

If not very comfortable.
Weren't they made up of quad-arts and quin-arts pulled by N7s in LNER days?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Weren't they made up of quad-arts and quin-arts pulled by N7s in LNER days?

That was the "modern" version - the original ones were J69's and 16 x 4 wheelers - especially widened to give 6 across seating ! (1921 timetable) , - the GER went for "volume" at less than a penny a mile for the workmens traffic. Something they bemoaned as far back as the 1905 Royal Commission (which I did an MA on !) , the fact is they had precious little other traffic on offer. Market forces and all that meant that electrification was capital costly and unaffordable , so dense steam working it was. The LNER had precious little money either .......but were forced into it , then WW2 got in the way.

The Shenfield electrification was one of the few "austerity Britain" schemes - that and the GEML Standard Pattern timetable , - one Gerry Fiennes to thank. He described it as "Liverpool Streets Golden Years". Probably right.

Top man.
 

AM9

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... Market forces and all that meant that electrification was capital costly and unaffordable , so dense steam working it was. The LNER had precious little money either .......but were forced into it , then WW2 got in the way.
The Shenfield electrification was one of the few "austerity Britain" schemes - that and the GEML Standard Pattern timetable , - one Gerry Fiennes to thank. He described it as "Liverpool Streets Golden Years". Probably right.

Top man.
Of course the GER was challenged by a competing scheme to build an electric railway (more a tramway with dedicated tracks), but the GER decided to prove that they could equal acceleration and speed with a steam loco. To demonstrate it they built the Decapod, a short wheelbase 0-10-0T. It achieved over 1.4 mph/sec near Chadwell Heath
 

PeterC

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is this speed or acceleration? Either way it's quite impressive
Looking at Wikipedia it looks as if that is a typo for acceleration of 1.4 feet per second per second.

I make no claims for the accuracy of Wikipedia
 

Bald Rick

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Even as recently as the late 80s the service into Liverpool St was rather lighter than it is today. No Stansted Express for example. The Southend Vic Line interworked with the Shenfield semi fasts. Hourly to Norwich. No semi fast Ipswich service. No Stratford - WAML services. Etc etc.
 

306024

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Even as recently as the late 80s the service into Liverpool St was rather lighter than it is today. No Stansted Express for example. The Southend Vic Line interworked with the Shenfield semi fasts. Hourly to Norwich. No semi fast Ipswich service. No Stratford - WAML services. Etc etc.

Yes looking back the service was rather sparse compared to today’s offering. I have public timetables from 1949 (class 306 introduction) and 1962 (class 309 introduction) which make interesting reading if you like that sort of thing.

Early 1980s, locomotive moves at Liverpool St used to take up a bit of capacity. Plus the various length restrictions of the platforms and different types of coaching stock used (air / vacuum brake, steam / electric heat) used to force certain loco moves. Platform 7 could take a 9 coach hauled train, but platform 8 could only take 7 coaches. 9, 10, 11 and 12 were longer and more loco friendly, but a shunt from the stops on platform 14 to the front of a train in platform 7 was just bad diagramming and to be avoided. All so much easier with EMUs and DVTs.

Today doing the platform working for Liverpool St is a skill. Sometimes this dictates the timetable rather than the other way round.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Even as recently as the late 80s the service into Liverpool St was rather lighter than it is today. No Stansted Express for example. The Southend Vic Line interworked with the Shenfield semi fasts. Hourly to Norwich. No semi fast Ipswich service. No Stratford - WAML services. Etc etc.

Sorry Boss - there was an Ipswich - LV semi-fast EMU from the dawn of electrification , Saffend always had at least 3 tph - and Norwich had half hourly in the "high peak" - up to resignaling there were loco holding sidings in the throat , where turnaround 47's could hide for an hour or so. Horribly unproductive in today's world. I can call in the ex Station Manager (now happily retired) for proof......
 

Bald Rick

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Sorry Boss - there was an Ipswich - LV semi-fast EMU from the dawn of electrification , Saffend always had at least 3 tph - and Norwich had half hourly in the "high peak" - up to resignaling there were loco holding sidings in the throat , where turnaround 47's could hide for an hour or so. Horribly unproductive in today's world. I can call in the ex Station Manager (now happily retired) for proof......

I believe you there Guv. The 3tph Southend’s generally went on the electrics though, and were semi fast inbound of Shenfield, interworked with a 3tph all shacks from Gidea. I think?

The Ipswich semi was presumably on the opposite side of the hour to the Clacton. But then didn’t it turn into a half hourly Norwich in Anglia days? And FGE put in another Ipswich semi for ORCATS? But I might be imagining ....
 

PeterC

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I believe you there Guv. The 3tph Southend’s generally went on the electrics though, and were semi fast inbound of Shenfield, interworked with a 3tph all shacks from Gidea. I think?

The Ipswich semi was presumably on the opposite side of the hour to the Clacton. But then didn’t it turn into a half hourly Norwich in Anglia days? And FGE put in another Ipswich semi for ORCATS? But I might be imagining ....
My 89 timetable has M-F offpeak per hour of Clacton, Norwich, Harwich, Witham. The Witham train took one of the Southend slots on the Electric while a Southend ran fast on the Main. Back in 63 with the start of the 309s the same time slot had 1 Clacton / Walton (dividing at Thorpe le Soken), 1 Norwich and 1 Chelmsford off the Electric. The Southend and Gidea Park frequencies were the same but with some Summer stopping services extended from Gidea Park to Southend.
 

306024

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From my memory (or imagination) the first strike on the Ipswich and Colchester revenue was made by Anglia Railways when they hired 317s off peak from their friends at WA&GN. This went down well at First Great Eastern (not), whose retaliatory strike was a second Ipswich service of their own, and cheaper FGE only fares from Ipswich. Had the Hatfield accident not intervened, the outcome could have been bloody.

Difficult to imagine a 3 tph Gidea Park all stations service compared to what Crossrail will deliver though.
 

ChiefPlanner

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From my memory (or imagination) the first strike on the Ipswich and Colchester revenue was made by Anglia Railways when they hired 317s off peak from their friends at WA&GN. This went down well at First Great Eastern (not), whose retaliatory strike was a second Ipswich service of their own, and cheaper FGE only fares from Ipswich. Had the Hatfield accident not intervened, the outcome could have been bloody.

Difficult to imagine a 3 tph Gidea Park all stations service compared to what Crossrail will deliver though.

There certainly was a carve up of attacks on the GEML twixt Anglia and GE for a while - (do not forget the idea of Anglia having a go at London Crosslink) - the GE addition of making the Shenfield /Gidea Park slows 6 tph was probably a blocking move , but easy enough to do , using spare off peak sets and a few extra marginal train crew turns) ....
 

AM9

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From my memory (or imagination) the first strike on the Ipswich and Colchester revenue was made by Anglia Railways when they hired 317s off peak from their friends at WA&GN. This went down well at First Great Eastern (not), whose retaliatory strike was a second Ipswich service of their own, and cheaper FGE only fares from Ipswich. Had the Hatfield accident not intervened, the outcome could have been bloody.

Difficult to imagine a 3 tph Gidea Park all stations service compared to what Crossrail will deliver though.
In the late '60s and early '70s that's exactly what there was between the peaks.
Below is a sample of the timetable as I remember it. Some of the times may be a couple of minutes out but the Ilford/Shenfield times are correct.
GE_70tt.jpg

The main connection that is held is the Southend to Clacton 12:23 change at Shenfield.
 

dazzler

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In the late '60s and early '70s that's exactly what there was between the peaks.
Below is a sample of the timetable as I remember it. Some of the times may be a couple of minutes out but the Ilford/Shenfield times are correct.
View attachment 59352

The main connection that is held is the Southend to Clacton 12:23 change at Shenfield.

That's basically the same service I remember from when I moved to Seven Kings in 1985, the main difference being that the Gidea Park service was being operated by class 315 by then - the other services being operated by the same stock as previously. The preserved class 306 was still rattling round Ilford depot at the time.

I moved back to York in 1989 and nothing had changed, apart from some of the liveries!
 

PeterC

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In the late '60s and early '70s that's exactly what there was between the peaks.
Below is a sample of the timetable as I remember it. Some of the times may be a couple of minutes out but the Ilford/Shenfield times are correct.
View attachment 59352

The main connection that is held is the Southend to Clacton 12:23 change at Shenfield.
That is pretty well what I remember with all off peak Southends being on the Electric and Ingatestone covered by a Shenfield - Chelmsford service (I remember a single 306 on this run) but both my saved timetables are from times when Ingatestone had a through service from London.
 

AM9

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That is pretty well what I remember with all off peak Southends being on the Electric and Ingatestone covered by a Shenfield - Chelmsford service (I remember a single 306 on this run) but both my saved timetables are from times when Ingatestone had a through service from London.
The peak service was pretty hectic and fraught with failures that usually affected those who didn't travel from Liverpool St the most. If anybody is interested, I could probably put together a similar sample of the timetable in the evening peak (from memory of course).
 

PeterC

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The peak service was pretty hectic and fraught with failures that usually affected those who didn't travel from Liverpool St the most. If anybody is interested, I could probably put together a similar sample of the timetable in the evening peak (from memory of course).
I remember it well although they did have the capicity in the 60s to switch trains from the Electrics to the Main at both Gidea Park and Romford and back again at Stratford.
When I first commuted in the late 60s the Electrics ran to a 10 minute cycle. At Romford it was 1 all stations, 1 fast Seven Kings to Stratford, one fast Romford to Stratford switching to the Main and, I think, a stopper from the Ilford bay on alternate cycles. The stopper started from Shenfield. From the Southend line one fast from Billericay to Liverpool Street on the main, one all stations to Harold Wood on the Electric then fast on the Main but back to the Electric for a Stratford call.
 

Ken H

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I remember it well although they did have the capicity in the 60s to switch trains from the Electrics to the Main at both Gidea Park and Romford and back again at Stratford.
When I first commuted in the late 60s the Electrics ran to a 10 minute cycle. At Romford it was 1 all stations, 1 fast Seven Kings to Stratford, one fast Romford to Stratford switching to the Main and, I think, a stopper from the Ilford bay on alternate cycles. The stopper started from Shenfield. From the Southend line one fast from Billericay to Liverpool Street on the main, one all stations to Harold Wood on the Electric then fast on the Main but back to the Electric for a Stratford call.
was this all with mechanical signalling? Or were there power boxes by then?
certainly mechanical in 1947 when the Gidea park crash occurred.
 

AM9

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By mechanical do you mean semaphore? There was four aspect lights but ISTR they were quite clunky and once paths were set up, they were reluctant to change anything. The approach contol at Shenfield took a lot of time out of the headway as the double junction onto the Southend lines was quite slow (30mph ?) so once it was set, the up main line was blocked. In those days, trains beyond Colchester were usually class 47s pulling 10 or 11 car mkI and mkII rakes. Occasionally, the fast Southend would get switched over to platform 4 and sent round the down loop.
On the down slow Southend in the pm peak, I think that Stratford platform 11 was used because it avoided crossing the up fast and using a platform 8 path.
 
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