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Northern: North West Sunday Crew Shortages

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Llama

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Indeed. I and plenty of others like me used to work 40+ Sundays per year. I didn't have to volunteer then, and I don't now, it just so happens I don't choose to work them now. There are several reasons for that, not least morale and goodwill being stretched. The company has no plan B if more of its drivers choose not to work. It also has a crippling backlog of (and upcoming) training which means it relies heavily on driver rest day working. Rest day working pays far more than Sunday working for a driver. The company needs to pay more for Sundays or offer better working conditions if it wants to entice volunteers to work Sundays again as overtime. The alternative is to bring Sundays inside the working week but that will add significantly to the wage bill because more drivers will need to be recruited and trained.
 
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northernchris

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Sunday cancellations are now on for this week, slightly better situation than last week but still a significant shortfall in available crew particularly around Blackpool / Blackburn / Wigan

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...ation-planned-cancellations-this-sunday-jan-7

Preston - Colne

Services between Preston and Colne will not run. An hourly replacement bus service will be provided.


Liverpool Lime Street – Wigan North Western

This route will be served by the Preston – Liverpool Lime Street services. Customers are advised to check immediately before they travel and use alternative services on this route.



Preston - Hellifield

All services have been cancelled. A bus replacement service will be provided.


Southport – Blackburn (via Atherton and Todmorden Curve)

This service will not run. We will be running bus replacement services between Wigan Wallgate and Southport and also between Todmorden and Blackburn.


Manchester Airport – Preston

There will be no Northern services running between Manchester Airport and Preston. Customers are advised to use the TransPennine Express Anglo-Scottish services that will now call additionally at Wigan North Western where they can pick up alternative services. Customers can also travel via Northern Stalybridge/Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate services.
 

philthetube

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All the while Sunday is not inside the week you can't blame staff for not working it. Sundays are voluntary overtime. Companies that have Sundays inside the 4 day week do not struggle to cover the Sunday work (any more than they struggle to cover the other days) because all the jobs are booked on the roster. When it's your booked Sunday you work it or swap it out. Simple.

As far as I can see the only sticking point is money... It must be cheaper for TOCs to run the job on voluntary overtime and cancel trains than it is to have a seven day roster and employ enough crews to cover all the work contained in it. ASLEF are in favour of bringing Sundays inside the week.

If it was cheaper to have Sundays inside the week they'd be inside. If it was cheaper to fully staff all depots with enough crews to cover all the work rather than relying on voluntary overtime then there'd be far more people employed as train crew in this country and far less cancellations as a result.

The DFT have to be blamed for this, it is a bad contract that allows this situation.

The big problem is that even if Sundays are in the working week, when you change weekly from earlys to lates, you can still only have half the staff able to be rostered as the other half will have finished late on Saturday and be starting early Monday.

This can be got round, it just needs the will to do it,
 

CHAPS2034

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Blo*dy annoying

I was hoping to go from Manchester to Southport for an afternoon gig - no Northern trails and no through Merseyrail trains from Liverpool to Southport this weekend due to engineering.

Bah. It's about time all this nonsense was sorted out - in some places on the west it is now a 5 day railway.
 

scrapy

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The DFT have to be blamed for this, it is a bad contract that allows this situation.



This can be got round, it just needs the will to do it,
Aslef did come up with a proposal for Sunday's within the working week at the start of the franchise. By now the extra drivers would be fully trained. Arriva said no, we'll just stick extra Sundays in the links and there's nothing you can do about it. They've done that as much as they can and are still short, and have now lost a lot of goodwill.
 

philthetube

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Assuming that the they in your post refers to the DFT and not ASLEF then a contract which makes it cheaper to cancel trains then run them is a badly drawn up contract.
 

jamesst

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Blo*dy annoying

I was hoping to go from Manchester to Southport for an afternoon gig - no Northern trails and no through Merseyrail trains from Liverpool to Southport this weekend due to engineering.

Bah. It's about time all this nonsense was sorted out - in some places on the west it is now a 5 day railway.

Not sure if it's any help but on Merseyrail tomorrow it's buses Liverpool to Seaforth and train Seaforth to Southport. Might still be worth going as you'll get there quicker than if you had to get the bus the whole way
 

scrapy

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Assuming that the they in your post refers to the DFT and not ASLEF then a contract which makes it cheaper to cancel trains then run them is a badly drawn up contract.
I don't think anyone knows for sure whether it's a bad contract or the DFT/Grayling not enforcing the contract because they don't want to see another franchise fail. Either way Arriva are still making money.
 

modernrail

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Not sure if it's any help but on Merseyrail tomorrow it's buses Liverpool to Seaforth and train Seaforth to Southport. Might still be worth going as you'll get there quicker than if you had to get the bus the whole way
I am on one now!
 

superkev

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I personality find it unbelievable that any 7 day a week operation dosn't contract its operatives accordingly. Good job hospitals, firemen and the like dont work like that. Perhaps its some legacy from the past.
What a mess the railway industrial relations are in.
K
 

td97

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Seems to be ridiculous today. No Bolton/Wigan services to Oxford Rd/Piccadilly/Airport (only Victoria). Lime Street to Airport via Warrington and Wigan stopper cancelled too.
Clearly the resumption of Saturday services has come at the expense of Sunday ones?
And they still have the audacity to send out short forms!
 

grid56126

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I personality find it unbelievable that any 7 day a week operation dosn't contract its operatives accordingly. Good job hospitals, firemen and the like dont work like that. Perhaps its some legacy from the past.
What a mess the railway industrial relations are in.
K
It is not about industrial relations. I was in a reasonably senior managerial role until quite recently. It was a 24/7 role with Sundays outside the working week. Like the vast majority of railway jobs this is simply down to economics of having less staff on the books. Being a manager there was a fair amount of pressure on me to work Sundays with veiled threats should I decline. I would have been very happy to have had that pressure removed by having Sundays in the working week and that's why the emergency services rosters work, they do not rely, in the most part, on enforced overtime.

I have been working shifts on the railways for 36 years this month and every one of the 600+ Sundays I have ever worked in those years have has been outside the working week and therefore on what, is most peoples day off.

600 x 8 hour shifts = 4,800 hours, I am being generous as most Sunday shifts have been 12 hours.
4,800 hours split into a 37 hour week gives you 129 weeks of work.
That means in any other industry my overtime would have been covered by a full time employee for TWO YEARS worth of my career.
It is simply not financially viable to employ the extra people, hiring, firing, training costs.

The drivers and conductors in the North West involved in this thread are almost certainly on 35 hour weeks which makes my figures even further off and finances needed to cover Sundays higher.
 

Bletchleyite

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Seems to be ridiculous today. No Bolton/Wigan services to Oxford Rd/Piccadilly/Airport (only Victoria). Lime Street to Airport via Warrington and Wigan stopper cancelled too.
Clearly the resumption of Saturday services has come at the expense of Sunday ones?
And they still have the audacity to send out short forms!

I wonder if one of the reasons Northern allowed it all to drag on (while blaming the Unions for it) was that they are about 1/7 short staffed and were getting away with it?

They'll also be seeing fewer Sunday volunteers now because they now have to work Saturday. Which is another issue of course.
 
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The Saturday striking appears to have stopped (for now) but Northern had a large amount of so-called "planned cancellations" today. Is there any reason for this? TPE didn't so I assume it didn't have anything to do with engineering works?
 

AndrewE

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I cant see anything about this on other threads: the NRE disruptions page says
There are a number of planned cancellations to Northern train services in the North West today, Sunday 17 February. These cancellations are not related to the introduction of the new timetable.

The following routes will be affected:

Preston - Colne

Services between Preston and Colne will not run. An hourly replacement bus service will be provided.

Liverpool Lime Street – Wigan North Western

This route will be served by the Preston – Liverpool Lime Street services. Customers are advised to check immediately before they travel and use alternative services on this route. A bus replacement service will serve both Bryn and Eccleston Park stations throughout the day.

Preston - Hellifield

All services have been cancelled. A bus replacement service will be provided.

Preston - Manchester Airport via both Wigan and Bolton

There will be no Northern services running between Manchester Airport and Preston via both Wigan and Bolton. Customers are advised to check immediately before they travel and use alternative services on this route.

Wigan North Western – Stalybridge

There will be no Northern services running between Wigan North Western to Stalybridge (via Bolton).

An hourly rail replacement bus service will operate between Wigan North Western and Bolton, calling at Ince, Hindley and West Houghton. Ince and Hindley stations also will be served by Atherton line services for customers travelling to / from Manchester.

There will also be an hourly rail replacement bus service between Manchester Victoria and Stalybridge, calling at Ashton Under Lyne. Stalybridge is also regularly served by TransPennine Express services.

Liverpool – Manchester Airport (via Warrington)

Northern customers will still be able to travel between Liverpool and Manchester using alternative services.

TransPennine Express services are available between Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport.

Preston – Hebden Bridge

There will be no services on this route. A bus replacement service will be provided.

Manchester Piccadilly – Hazel Grove

There will be an hourly service starting and terminating at Buxton. Customers advised to travel on the Buxton services for Hazel Grove.
Nothing to do with the Crewe to Wilmslow engineering, so what are they up to?
 

Jonfun

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Yeah half a Sunday service (planned cancellations etc) has been going on for as long as the Saturday strikes.
 

robbeech

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Some staff from some depots aren’t contracted for Sunday so if they don’t get enough volunteer to do a Sunday then services get cancelled. It’s often blamed on engineering works putting staff out of place but this is likely inaccurate. I’m not sure if it’s drivers or guards or both but it seems to be fairly significant today. Whether this is related to more staff working on a Sayturday again remains to be seen.
 

geoffk

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Happens almost every Sunday, nearly always the same services and often on the Rochdale line also but we were lucky today. I don't think the Sunday-only Blackpool - Clitheroe - Hellifield train has run for months. This is why all the planned Sunday improvements from next May are in Yorkshire! The question is, now the guards dispute is over for now, is Northern management going to give some attention to the Sunday working arrangements? (not a dispute, of course). Engineering works on Blackpool line.
 
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Bletchleyite

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They do this every Sunday. Probably a staffing issue?

Probably fewer volunteers now they don't get Saturday off any more.

A cynic might suggest this to be one reason why Northern were slow to get a proper resolution to the strikes. If you're only operating for 6/7 of the week, you only need 6/7 of the staff...
 

Andyh82

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There have been the planned cancellations every Sunday for months. I’m not sure why suddenly everyone has only noticed them this week.
 

_toommm_

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Happens almost every Sunday, nearly always the same services and often on the Rochdale line also but we were lucky today. I don't think the Sunday-only Blackpool - Clitheroe - Hellifield train has run for months. This is why all the planned Sunday improvements from next May are in Yorkshire! The question is, now the guards dispute is over for now, is Northern management going to give some attention to the Sunday working arrangements? (not a dispute, of course). Engineering works on Blackpool line.

The Sunday only Hellifield runs ran for about a month (if that) at the start of January - I caught it on the 20th Jan, albeit it was only running to/from Preston due to engineering works at Blackpool.
 

Puffing Devil

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It is not about industrial relations. I was in a reasonably senior managerial role until quite recently. It was a 24/7 role with Sundays outside the working week. Like the vast majority of railway jobs this is simply down to economics of having less staff on the books. Being a manager there was a fair amount of pressure on me to work Sundays with veiled threats should I decline. I would have been very happy to have had that pressure removed by having Sundays in the working week and that's why the emergency services rosters work, they do not rely, in the most part, on enforced overtime.

I have been working shifts on the railways for 36 years this month and every one of the 600+ Sundays I have ever worked in those years have has been outside the working week and therefore on what, is most peoples day off.

600 x 8 hour shifts = 4,800 hours, I am being generous as most Sunday shifts have been 12 hours.
4,800 hours split into a 37 hour week gives you 129 weeks of work.
That means in any other industry my overtime would have been covered by a full time employee for TWO YEARS worth of my career.
It is simply not financially viable to employ the extra people, hiring, firing, training costs.

The drivers and conductors in the North West involved in this thread are almost certainly on 35 hour weeks which makes my figures even further off and finances needed to cover Sundays higher.

Crazy that we are reliant on voluntary overtime for Sunday working. Bringing new drivers in on a 7-day contract must make sense?
 

grid56126

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Crazy that we are reliant on voluntary overtime for Sunday working. Bringing new drivers in on a 7-day contract must make sense?
It "makes sense" for running a decent service, but not for making money. Publicly or privately owned, it has hardly changed and suspect it won't for a long time.
 

Puffing Devil

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I'm not sure how the costs will change - it would all depend on the agreement reached. It seems clear that we can't continue to rely on overtime and goodwill.
 

Kite159

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Crazy that we are reliant on voluntary overtime for Sunday working. Bringing new drivers in on a 7-day contract must make sense?

Agreed, new set of T&Cs for new recruits with Sunday working included. The new recruits will know what is expected when they sign on the dotted line.

Happens in other businesses where new recruits might be on different T&Cs than the existing employees.
 

Lancs

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Happens in other businesses where new recruits might be on different T&Cs than the existing employees.

They could be really sensible, get DfT to enforce national standard T&Cs for new recruits, thus also doing away with the "different TOC - different depot - different rules" hodge podge that exists currently...
 

Eccles1983

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Agreed, new set of T&Cs for new recruits with Sunday working included. The new recruits will know what is expected when they sign on the dotted line.

Happens in other businesses where new recruits might be on different T&Cs than the existing employees.


Instant dispute territory. Men in the same depot and link on different t&C's will never end well. I would vote for industrial action on that issue without a second thought. The newer Sunday in drivers would not cover the jobs as route and traction knowledge would be far lower than other drivers for a few years.

In that time the company could act responsibly and offer a Sunday package that suits, instead of bringing in what would be a fourth set of t&C's.

Or here's a idea that will never take off because it would end the problem instantly - offer Sunday's as a rest day rate. I guarantee the issue would disappear overnight.
 

Eccles1983

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They could be really sensible, get DfT to enforce national standard T&Cs for new recruits, thus also doing away with the "different TOC - different depot - different rules" hodge podge that exists currently...


Really?

That sounds a lot like BR. I like it.

I look forward to my pay parity with the Virgin men.
 

Puffing Devil

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They could be really sensible, get DfT to enforce national standard T&Cs for new recruits, thus also doing away with the "different TOC - different depot - different rules" hodge podge that exists currently...

Just as sensible as DOO..... It would make sense, though the negotiations would go on forever for the existing workforce, unless they were given an opt in.
 
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