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Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

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Howardh

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Thinking that has come from decades of continual media propaganda from the right wing press. Some of the greatest institutions , like the NHS came from a proper socialist labour party. Some of the dirtiest underhand lies have come from a Blairite second tory party - you're welcome to it.
Do you want Labour - in any form - in power or not? If they go leftwards as Corbyn/Momentum want they won't ever be in power again. Middle England simply won't vote for them - as they did under Blair.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Thinking that has come from decades of continual media propaganda from the right wing press. Some of the greatest institutions , like the NHS came from a proper socialist labour party. Some of the dirtiest underhand lies have come from a Blairite second tory party - you're welcome to it.

Then bring on the split and let the ballot box decide.
 

Groningen

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And than to remember this has nothing or just partly to do with brexit? I hope i am right or just get punished by you on this forum!
 

Howardh

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I would be more inclined to vote for a centre-left social democratic party. Indeed, if the SNP fielded a candidate in my constituency they would probably get my vote.

I do however also want the Trade Unionism out of such a party. I support the idea of unions in relevant industries (though I'm not a member of one), though I do find the approach of the RMT to be laughable - but I don't think they should be part of or related to Government any more than any other members' organisation should.
Yes, I'm in favour of unions to protect the workforce; however I fail to see how they can be political. No matter which government is in power, the unions should be there and there are many Tory and Libdem + SNP/PC voters who are union members. maybe the TUC should be it's own political party?
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, I'm in favour of unions to protect the workforce; however I fail to see how they can be political. No matter which government is in power, the unions should be there and there are many Tory and Libdem + SNP/PC voters who are union members. maybe the TUC should be it's own political party?

The TUC should stick with being an umbrella body for trade unions and with lobbying whatever party is in power if they see fit.

We need to move towards voting on policies, not affiliations.
 

Puffing Devil

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Do you want Labour - in any form - in power or not? If they go leftwards as Corbyn/Momentum want they won't ever be in power again. Middle England simply won't vote for them - as they did under Blair.

That's the issue = the core support of both Left and Right won't really waver. It's the floating voter that needs to be attracted.
 

Howardh

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And than to remember this has nothing or just partly to do with brexit? I hope i am right or just get punished by you on this forum!
Half-and-half. It's basically Corbyn's ineptitude over Brexit, a further referendum and all the anti-semitic (sp?) stuff under the surface.
 

433N

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I wonder if the Tory MPs who fundamentally disagree with the Tory leadership are going to split away too ...

Nah, they'll just drive the country to ruin. Tally Ho. Party First.
 

DarloRich

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Good for them. I hope they form a new party as i think my membership of the Labour party is coming to an end. Sadly it is no longer the party I joined having been taken over by Momentum types not interested in winning but instead interested in investing in the person of a silly, thick and frankly useless old man some form of mythical status.

Thinking that has come from decades of continual media propaganda from the right wing press. Some of the greatest institutions , like the NHS came from a proper socialist labour party. Some of the dirtiest underhand lies have come from a Blairite second tory party - you're welcome to it.

I suspect you do some reading about Clement Atlee. From what I have read of him he would have had little time for Corbyn and his friends.

Do you want Labour - in any form - in power or not? If they go leftwards as Corbyn/Momentum want they won't ever be in power again. Middle England simply won't vote for them - as they did under Blair.

Winning is of no interest to the Clownbyn army. Ideological purity within a Stalin like leadership cult is all that matters. Winning means compromise. Compromise is a Blairite act and therefore forbidden. Much better to stand on the sidelines shouting student politics slogans than try and fix anything. To win means winning middle England and Scotland. How is that getting on?
 
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DynamicSpirit

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At 10:59am...

They all must be very disenfranchised with the current labour party to effectively accept they will lose their jobs within the next few years and face incredible abuse from all quarters. I don't think any of them are naive enough to think that anything other than that is going to happen now they have quit the Labour Party. They did not look happy to be on TV talking about this at all.

And, hey - look... just 13 minutes later, the first bit of abuse arrives on this very forum:

it will be good riddance - let's hope all the Blairites leave and let the Labour party get back to being a party of the people instead of self serving career Blairites.

Mutant Lemming - have you considered the possibility that descending to that kind of abuse, instead of trying to understand the reasons why those MPs feel they've had to take this action, might just be exactly one of the things that is starting to push people out of the Labour Party? Personally, I feel pretty sad that those MPs have left the Labour Party. But they've just done something one of whose most likely effects is to sacrifice their own careers. You may disagree with them but 'self-serving career' describes the very opposite of what they've just done.
 

DarloRich

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Mutant Lemming - have you considered the possibility that descending to that kind of abuse, instead of trying to understand the reasons why those MPs feel they've had to take this action, might just be exactly one of the things that is starting to push people out of the Labour Party? Personally, I feel pretty sad that those MPs have left the Labour Party. But they've just done something one of whose most likely effects is to sacrifice their own careers. You may disagree with them but 'self-serving career' describes the very opposite of what they've just done.

Corbyn and his friends have destroyed the previous "broad church" of the Labour party. It was a church broad enough to encompass the serial disloyalty shown by Mr Corbyn during the leadership of previous incumbents without trying to get him deselected or kicked out of the party. Now we must show unswerving loyalty of the type he never did on pain of expulsion!
 

DanDaDriver

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If only Ed Miliband could have eaten a bloody sandwich properly then we wouldn’t be in this mess.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Corbyn and his friends have destroyed the previous "broad church" of the Labour party. It was a church broad enough to encompass the serial disloyalty shown by Mr Corbyn during the leadership of previous incumbents without trying to get him deselected or kicked out of the party. Now we must show unswerving loyalty of the type he never did on pain of expulsion!

Why on earth would Blair have wanted to kick Mr Corbyn and others out of the party? Given Blair's big majority in the HoC it mattered not a jot that there were a handful of MP's who disagreed with many of his policies. To pick an unnecessary fight with 'the left' may well have exposed many of his own policies to further scrutiny....and anyway, by all accounts Jeremy Corbyn was (and is) an excellent constituency MP.
 
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DarloRich

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Why on earth would Blair have wanted to kick Mr Corbyn and others out of the party? Given Blair's big majority in the HoC it mattered not a jot that there were a handful of MP's who disagreed with many of his policies. To pick an unnecessary fight with 'the left' may well have exposed many of his own policies to further scrutiny....and anyway, by all accounts Jeremy Corbyn was (and is) an excellent constituency MP.

The point, as you know very well, is that other leaders haven't needed declarations of unswerving loyalty. Why does Corbs? Why is no one calling out the obvious hypocrisy in his past voting history and his behaviour towards loyalty today?
 
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Typhoon

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I've long thought that the worst thing that happened to Labour was the death of John Smith.

If John Smith had been leader in '97, Labour would have got a smaller majority, hopefully would not have been distracted by fanciful ideas that distracted the government from its core aims as there was more danger in losing at the next election (such was the majority in '97 that short of a catastrophe they were bound to get in next time). He, hopefully, would have reigned in Blair and Brown from their feud. He could have kept an eye on Brown at the Treasury, and, hopefully, would not have been afraid to sack him if necessary (and would also understand what was going on). Blair would have gone to the Home Office and may have been a more stable presence there, or Business Secretary, which would have left Mandelson in the comparative cold. He might have been less willing to appease George W (no 'Yo, Smith' that's for sure), and definitely less willing to appease the monied. Minimum wage would still have happened, the NHS would have been safe, he was wary about the shift to a service economy, he was safe on employment and the mixed economy (I suspect PFIs wouldn't have happened, or at least not in the manner they did).

A load of 'if's I know but I don't think I am alone in thinking his untimely death was a loss to the country.
 

Ken H

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What was hard left about Gordon Brown like?
Brown was useless. The bank runs that started the crash at the end of the noughties was on his watch. Then there was Bigotgate.
Blair won cos he was supposed to have charisma. They say he was elected by women. Brown didnt have that.
Blair also promised improved public services and no increase in the basic rate of income tax. To fund that Brown brought in all sorts of stealth taxes, notably a pension tax which screwed many peoples pensions. Then they borrowed, much off balance sheet using PFI and the network rail borrowing, for example.
People now know you get public services by paying for them through taxes. Not sure trying to sell better services without increasing taxes will work in 2019.
 

Ken H

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And than to remember this has nothing or just partly to do with brexit? I hope i am right or just get punished by you on this forum!
The anti-semitism must have been a factor, not least for Jewish Lucinda Berger.
 

cactustwirly

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I'm really glad this has happened, and hopefully more MPs follow suit!
I would not vote for Labour in a million years (in its current form), especially with Corbyn and his incompetent shadow cabinet!
At the moment the Tory party is the least worst option, or even Lord Buckethead himself
 

DarloRich

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I'm really glad this has happened, and hopefully more MPs follow suit!
I would not vote for Labour in a million years (in its current form), especially with Corbyn and his incompetent shadow cabinet!

I am a lifelong Labour voter and member form a family of dyed in the wool North East Labour people. I cant vote for Corbyn. It was really hard to vote for my really good local Labour councillor at our election last week. Very hard indeed despite his good local work. For the first time ever I thought about voting from someone else but as that was a Tory I would have had to spoil my paper.
 

Busaholic

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I wonder if the Tory MPs who fundamentally disagree with the Tory leadership are going to split away too ...

Nah, they'll just drive the country to ruin. Tally Ho. Party First.
Anna Soubry by far the most likely to, possibly taking Justine Greening with her. I can see Sarah Woolaston going too, but then she's never been a dyed-in-the-wool Tory and could well be re-elected as an Independent with an increased majority. Any men? Nah, none of them have the balls....
 

Ken H

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Thinking that has come from decades of continual media propaganda from the right wing press. Some of the greatest institutions , like the NHS came from a proper socialist labour party. Some of the dirtiest underhand lies have come from a Blairite second tory party - you're welcome to it.
Actually the NHS was a development of health provision from the 19th Century. Started as workhouse infirmaries (St James Leeds was a workhouse infirmary) then through county hospitals (Run by county councils) to being made into the NHS.
also during the workhouse era child care developed, with the building of chalet type childrens homes, and care homes for the elderly.
Workhouses also distributed outdoor relief which was a system of cash payments to allow the poor to stay at home and not go to the workhouse. This was the forerunner of National Assistance created in the early 20th century, which later became the benefits system introduced after the WW2.
Old age pensions were also introduced in early 20th century.
Much of the 20th century changes were introduced under Liberal governments.

So Atlees government wasn't that radical, they just moved things on. The big one was free GP's. But to get that through against General Medical Council opposition, GP's were contractors and not employees. And they still are not NHS employees. Most GP practices are partnerships.
 

Bletchleyite

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I am a lifelong Labour voter and member form a family of dyed in the wool North East Labour people. I cant vote for Corbyn. It was really hard to vote for my really good local Labour councillor at our election last week. Very hard indeed despite his good local work. For the first time ever I thought about voting from someone else but as that was a Tory I would have had to spoil my paper.

What is of course interesting is that you are (in my understanding) quite left-wing in your politics - so that shows he isn't just splitting the "wings" of the party.
 

DanDaDriver

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He's certainly far further left than me in most discussions on here, and I consider myself overall a slightly-left-of-centre social democrat.

This is one of the issues with the Labour Party as influenced by monentum. You’re either pro-Corbyn or you’re a rabid Tory who wants to bring back fox hunting using the children of poor people. There’s no in-between.
 

pdq

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I honestly don't know who I would vote for at the next election. I have always voted Labour, and can never see myself voting Conservative as too many of their policies contradict my values. If the Lib-Dems hadn't shot themselves in the foot by getting into bed with the Tories in 2010, I think they might have been a sensible political alternative by now, but as it is, there is nothing to appeal to the centre left.

I find Jeremy Corbyn to be too radical and a bit of a loose cannon. I simply don't trust him and I can't see him being any kind of statesman. Whilst I disagree with Teresa May's policies, she has handled herself impeccably over the last few months, with great dignity and integrity. I just don't see that kind of skill-set in Jeremy Corbyn.

Like some previous posters (and of course, unlike some previous posters) I found the Tony Blair era to be the most suited to my thinking. No extreme views one way or the other, but a sensible centre ground with the emphasis on social justice. Of course, he then spoilt everything with the Iraq War, but that seems to overshadow everything else about his time in office. His was a pragmatic government; one under Jeremy Corbyn would, I fear, be dangerously dogmatic.

The other confusion for me is that I have a very good local Labour MP whom I have personally got to know slightly (for non-political reasons) and who is very visible at local events and causes. At a general election one should really vote for the local candidate you feel will best represent you and your community in Parliament. End of. But of course it's not that simple and national politics have to be considered as well.

Quandaries, quandaries...
 

Busaholic

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What is of course interesting is that you are (in my understanding) quite left-wing in your politics - so that shows he isn't just splitting the "wings" of the party.
I'm another considered by many to be left wing, and I wouldn't vote for Corbyn in a million years. I might have voted for a McDonnell Labour party at one time, but no longer, as he's lost a sense of proportion on gaining a semblance of power. His call for an 'oath of allegiance' from Labour MPs should chill the blood of any right-thinking person, and is truly Stalinist.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is one of the issues with the Labour Party as influenced by monentum. You’re either pro-Corbyn or you’re a rabid Tory who wants to bring back fox hunting using the children of poor people. There’s no in-between.

And that's why we probably need a new party, representing a combination of a sensible, not excessively restricted commercial sector with Scandinavian style realistic taxation paying for quality public services.

In Scotland, the SNP is pretty close, but there is no such party in England, and Plaid Cymru seem little more than a pressure group for an independence that would make Wales about as viable as Albania.
 

Typhoon

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Blair won cos he was supposed to have charisma. They say he was elected by women.
A bit of a generalisation?

I would suggest that the reason why Blair won was just as likely to be that the country was fed up with Major vs The Bastards. There was a lot of truth in 'Things Can Only Get Better'.
 
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