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Class 710 LO

samuelmorris

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I expect the priority for Bombardier is to carry out any required software updates and software testing on 345s. I expect any programmer etc resources used on the 710s will be to enable some but not all further mechanical testing. I always remember, when I was an Analyst/Programmer, that if there was too much going on then some projects (in this case class of train) would be prioritised over another. I think, at this stage, Bombardier would be focused on getting the almost complete fleet of 345s in action and paid for.

Lamentable that the delays are gradually dragging on leaving the user (Goblin route) with no forward planning ability. It would have been kinder for the supplier to be realistic about what they could achieve at an earlier stage. After all IIRC Siemens were not bidding for some contracts because they believed they could not deliver in the timescale required (OK that was on a mechanical front I suspect). It is what I always hated - having to keep quiet about an expected delay and watching parts of a company making unrealistic plans. I have seen unrealistic promises made just to get or retain the work.

Is the above what is happening here with the 710s ?.

It is not unusual. After all look at the timetable fiasco that everyone was too scared to admit might happen - and did happen. That is what happens when there is too much pressure to meet demands.
Perhaps but TfL don't need anything like all the 345s due to the delay to the Crossrail rollout. Until they need 24tph manning Paddington to Abbey Wood they can make do with barely half the fleet that's been ordered. Those 9-car units are going to be sitting idle for considerable time if they've all been built. I do see the point about software developers working on getting the 345s working with crossrail signalling though, that is undeniably a bigger political issue than Goblin, even if it has far less of a negative impact on the relevant users.

plcd1 said:
The problem with the 710 fiasco is that no one will be honest, open and decent and admit what has gone wrong, why and how it will be fixed. I know I'm being ridiculously optimistic in expecting such an approach but passengers deserve an explanation and a realistic timescale for when the new trains might run. I note a remark above about the "4 car 378s" being an example of "getting stuff done". Well yes but extremely late in the day and a solution that is not sustainable. You simply can't flog the same three trains up and down the route for an average of 16 hours a day, 7 days a week with only a few overnight hours for "maintenance". Something around the service that passengers receive has to give at some point - be it the extent of hour operated or part or all of the weekend operation - to allow the trains to receive proper attention to keep them safe and operable. Even with 2 of the 378s now in use the service is extremely fragile. There have been train failures and points failures umpteen times lately causing the service to fall to bits. That fragility will be worse with only 3 trains.
Is the plan not to only run the 378s at weekdays?
 
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Wivenswold

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I should point out that the lack of an honest and open explanation will be because the solicitors retained by everyone involved in the project will be instructing their clients to remain silent while preliminary discovery (document exchange and investigation of same) takes place.

Just as with Greater Anglia, the silence means that legal teams are already threatening each other with breach of contract claims.
 

plcd1

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I should point out that the lack of an honest and open explanation will be because the solicitors retained by everyone involved in the project will be instructing their clients to remain silent while preliminary discovery (document exchange and investigation of same) takes place.

Just as with Greater Anglia, the silence means that legal teams are already threatening each other with breach of contract claims.

TfL have stated they've received at least £5m compensation from Bombardier. I think we're past the lawyers and discovery stage on that contract. Money doesn't just land on the desk without at least the claims process having been initiated. It's unarguable that Bombardier are in breach of their contractual train delivery obligations and probably more besides.

I do, though, take your point that silence is more likely than reasonable disclosure to the public.
 

hwl

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Perhaps but TfL don't need anything like all the 345s due to the delay to the Crossrail rollout. Until they need 24tph manning Paddington to Abbey Wood they can make do with barely half the fleet that's been ordered. Those 9-car units are going to be sitting idle for considerable time if they've all been built. I do see the point about software developers working on getting the 345s working with crossrail signalling though, that is undeniably a bigger political issue than Goblin, even if it has far less of a negative impact on the relevant users.

It doesn't really matter whether Tfl need 100% of the 345s anytime soon, they do need the software working which is the limiting factor.
Over 75% of the 345s have been delivered another 15% are substantially complete or in testing and most of the drop in extra drop in cars are made so the easiest thing to to get the units out the door.

Most of the 710s overall (including West Anglia) have also been completed again the software is the issue.
 

hwl

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TfL have stated they've received at least £5m compensation from Bombardier. I think we're past the lawyers and discovery stage on that contract. Money doesn't just land on the desk without at least the claims process having been initiated. It's unarguable that Bombardier are in breach of their contractual train delivery obligations and probably more besides.

I do, though, take your point that silence is more likely than reasonable disclosure to the public.
And some of the issues will be down to NR too (e.g. OHLE voltage being over the max limit at night in places when there is less load overall).
 

43055

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710105 with 57312 and 47815 have just left Bombardier for the test track at Old Dalby
 

Milo T.K

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it may happen that the same thing will happen with mta of that bombadier being banned from bidding on future orders
 

Class 170101

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And some of the issues will be down to NR too (e.g. OHLE voltage being over the max limit at night in places when there is less load overall).

I'd be interested in you expanding on that one a bit please.
 

colchesterken

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That sounds like a big problem will NR have to install voltage regulators
or will the have to make the 710 s less sensitive, The could get the drawings from the 307 s and modify them after all they worked on 25kv and 6.25kv for 20 yrs !!
 

Peter Sarf

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That sounds like a big problem will NR have to install voltage regulators
or will the have to make the 710 s less sensitive, The could get the drawings from the 307 s and modify them after all they worked on 25kv and 6.25kv for 20 yrs !!

Ahhh, the good old days.....
 

Elecman

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That sounds like a big problem will NR have to install voltage regulators
or will the have to make the 710 s less sensitive, The could get the drawings from the 307 s and modify them after all they worked on 25kv and 6.25kv for 20 yrs !!

Or just turn off one of the incoming feeders so the line voltage drops
 

thecrofter

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Or just turn off one of the incoming feeders so the line voltage drops

Not the answer to the problem I'm afraid. To expand as Class 170101 asked at #1121: The over voltage issue is that the Gospel Oak - Barking line is fed from two separate feeders. Acton Lane (on WCML) up to South Tottenham Neutral Section and from West Ham on Anglia to the South Tottenham NS. Original late night testing of the 710 revealed that when the load on West Coast is low (particularly when there is an Isolation around Euston for HS2 enabling works) the Acton Lane supply is prone to off load excursions over 27.5 kV which is normal. However, the 710 software had this value set as the maximum voltage (not 29 kV for 5 mins which is the value allowed on the infrastructure) hence the train would protect itself and shut down. Ah just a software tweak you may say and I guess that has been done, but whether the 710 equipment is actually rated at the higher voltage is another question. There is some suggestion elsewhere on Social Media that equipment failures have indeed occurred - pure speculation I might add.
 

Helvellyn

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Surprised nobody has suggested some of those off-lease HSTs with hired in Drivers and Guards from GWR. :rolleyes:
 

Peter Sarf

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Don't be silly, there's 6 perfectly fine 442s waiting to pick up some work. Stick a panto on it and it is roaring to go! :lol:;)

Ohh those lovely 442s, why not and they are my favourite EMU !. No need to butcher them - I am sure DRS could spare a few 88s......
 

Class 170101

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Not the answer to the problem I'm afraid. To expand as Class 170101 asked at #1121: The over voltage issue is that the Gospel Oak - Barking line is fed from two separate feeders. Acton Lane (on WCML) up to South Tottenham Neutral Section and from West Ham on Anglia to the South Tottenham NS. Original late night testing of the 710 revealed that when the load on West Coast is low (particularly when there is an Isolation around Euston for HS2 enabling works) the Acton Lane supply is prone to off load excursions over 27.5 kV which is normal. However, the 710 software had this value set as the maximum voltage (not 29 kV for 5 mins which is the value allowed on the infrastructure) hence the train would protect itself and shut down. Ah just a software tweak you may say and I guess that has been done, but whether the 710 equipment is actually rated at the higher voltage is another question. There is some suggestion elsewhere on Social Media that equipment failures have indeed occurred - pure speculation I might add.

And I imagine that might be more challenging than normal because the GOB was wired without a dedicated feeder station and relies on the two off route feeder stations as outlined above, presumably a higher voltage is needed to ensure minimal lossof voltage at the furthest points from each feeder stations.
 

ijmad

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Surprised nobody has suggested some of those off-lease HSTs with hired in Drivers and Guards from GWR. :rolleyes:

Don't be silly, there's 6 perfectly fine 442s waiting to pick up some work. Stick a panto on it and it is roaring to go! :lol:;)

How about a few of those Eurostar 373s headed for the scrapyard.

They could be shortened from 2 power cars + 18 coaches down to 2 power cars + 2 coaches easily enough, right?

Right?!
 

MatthewRead

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How about a few of those Eurostar 373s headed for the scrapyard.

They could be shortened from 2 power cars + 18 coaches down to 2 power cars + 2 coaches easily enough, right?

Right?!
Class 387's from C2C would be the best option specially at the weekend when they have no booked diagrams.
 

Mikey C

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Knowing TfL they'll decide to rip the rails up now and convert the Goblin into a cycle super highway :rolleyes:
 

Railperf

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Apparently version 30 of the software was uploaded over the weekend. Reported issues on previous versions were problems with CCTV and coupling. It is hoped as that is this software release is stable that driver training could commence within 2 weeks or so I am told.
 

samuelmorris

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Apparently version 30 of the software was uploaded over the weekend. Reported issues on previous versions were problems with CCTV and coupling. It is hoped as that is this software release is stable that driver training could commence within 2 weeks or so I am told.
I'm having a hard time understanding that. Is it hoped that this version is stable, or have they already established that it is and they are now moving forwards?
 

Via Bank

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Knowing TfL they'll decide to rip the rails up now and convert the Goblin into a cycle super highway :rolleyes:
You could always, and probably should, have both and not try and trade sustainable modes of transport off against each other, but oh well :s </killjoy>

Anyway, back on topic. I’m assuming since TfL have got agreement that Bombardier will fund a month’s free travel for GOBLIN punters once the 710s are in, they must have an idea what form that will take, and how they’ll decide who gets it.
 

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