• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Group: General Discussion

Kahuna47

Member
Joined
13 Sep 2017
Messages
112
I think you're overthinking things!

They have Go East, Go South Coast, Go North East, and used to have Go West Midlands. It's pretty standard for them to use these more vague geographical terms.

Don't blame me, blame the rumours at the depots. :) as expected the rumour mill is in overdrive at the moment...

K
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,155
Im surprised the other depot anncouments have not appeared today. Of course if its £10million for this one could this mean first will get alot more that what it asked?
 

Kahuna47

Member
Joined
13 Sep 2017
Messages
112
Im surprised the other depot anncouments have not appeared today. Of course if its £10million for this one could this mean first will get alot more that what it asked?

The thing is Queens is the smallest depot with a building thats falling apart and buses which are doing similar, so the £11mil is about right.

Oldham and Bolton are massive operations and (unless First reallocate out of area) have the newest vehicles. Obviously Vantage buses will have to stay put.

We will see what happens in the coming days and weeks :)

K
 

NewcastleOne

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2017
Messages
88
E400s went to Bolton and Oldham in exchange for B7 and B9s. I think the newest vehicles are the 11 plate B5s at Queens. I know over at GNE they have a reputation for refurbs and they may just do that for the most part.

The Rochdale Road corridor will just have another competitor on it, like Stagecoach already is. I wouldn't be suprised if the 163 goes over to Queens too tbh. Although it makes a lot of money, its a route out on a limb and the increased competition may knock it.

K

No - that's not how the CMA works

It's a very middle aged fleet with a lot of 2005-2009 vintage stuff. It'll certainly need some investment though I'd not be surprised to see a chunk of new buses arrive to signify the new broom and to introduce a new identity.

I will say that Go North East is very good at Refurbishments. Their Interiors are always up to date compared to Arriva and Stagecoach and are quite pleasant so if it’s anything like GNE model for GNW then it’s quite an upgrade from First.
 

Alexbus12

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2018
Messages
387
I will say that Go North East is very good at Refurbishments. Their Interiors are always up to date compared to Arriva and Stagecoach and are quite pleasant so if it’s anything like GNE model for GNW then it’s quite an upgrade from First.

It'll be interesting where refurbishments and repaints take place. I cant see them wanting to treck all the way to other divisions for a simple repaint. Will they use outside contractors such as Bus & Coach World, or will they create their own painting a refurbishment department at Queens Road.. Remember, 163 buses will need, at least, painting eventually...
 

NewcastleOne

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2017
Messages
88
It'll be interesting where refurbishments and repaints take place. I cant see them wanting to treck all the way to other divisions for a simple repaint. Will they use outside contractors such as Bus & Coach World, or will they create their own painting a refurbishment department at Queens Road.. Remember, 163 buses will need, at least, painting eventually...
Quite Possibly Bus And Coach Blackburn of which there are currently 3 Cobalt Clipper B9TLs (GNE) there. But recently they sent an EYMS up to Saltmeadows for repaint so I wouldn’t put it past them if it’s cheaper.
 

sonic2009

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2010
Messages
4,915
Location
Crewe
I wonder if Go Ahead may snap up Wythenshawe Arriva Depot as well, i'v heard that's up for sale.
 

Kahuna47

Member
Joined
13 Sep 2017
Messages
112
I wonder if Go Ahead may snap up Wythenshawe Arriva Depot as well, i'v heard that's up for sale.
I wouldn't be suprised it all Arriva's GM stuff will be up for sale, it does seem to be a bit of an anomaly for their NW ops IMO.

Perhaps a discussion for another thread...
 

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,379
From the conference call for investors and analysts:-

No "significant" profit or loss on the Manchester depot sale (not completed until after financial year end). Defined benefit pension there stays with Firstgroup, obviously.
 
Last edited:

Mwanesh

Member
Joined
14 May 2016
Messages
787
Go Ahead should be no where near Manchester.They butchered Anglian Bus.They are busy destroying Konnectbus.
 

Geeves

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Rochdale
Go Ahead should be no where near Manchester.They butchered Anglian Bus.They are busy destroying Konnectbus.

First have done a pretty impressive job in regards to butchering all by themselves even in comparison to 10 years ago. Go Ahead will really not have alot of fat to trim!

I am sure Trandev would abosutely love to get hold of Bolton depot, this will make them a huge presence in North Manchester.
 

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,213
Location
Liskeard
What about plymouth?

I’ve never known an operator make so many timetable changes. Every couple of months they’re changing times, minor route amendments.
All the other local operators here manage with just winter and summer change.
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
Don't they have an in-house paintshop at Preston depot already? Despite that, you still see plenty of buses running round in the wrong colours (e.g. Preston Bus out of Tyldesley, Wessex or London Red out of Preston).

No TGW, there's no paint shop at Preston depot. It's subtracted locally to Cottam Coachworks, Preston. Not sure where Diamond Bus NW vehicles are painted, a couple have been done via Preston Bus etc. Not sure if Goodwin's do painting as Rotala use them for some of the bigger repair jobs. I believe Preston depot may have a paintshop bay, no there's no painter employed though.

The red Wessex & ex London red Gemini's are unlikely to be painted, due to age & typically only used on schools work.

And indeed they did Winston. They have also provided the trading update. In respect of UK Bus, turnover is up 1.3% against a reduction of 1.9% in patronage, caused by the ongoing decline in high street footfall and via service reductions. The other areas look broadly positive with the exception of Greyhound though looks like they are cashing in on the property portfolio there!

An interesting little note though which will catch Winston's attention "The £250 million 6.125% coupon bond due January 2019 was recently refinanced from cash on hand and revolving bank facilities as planned. As previously indicated this will not have a significant effect on the Group’s overall interest costs going forward as the bond had been swapped to a floating rate. The Group’s next major refinancing is the £350 million 8.75% bond due April 2021." Not being an expert in bonds (or much else, TBH), I can only guess that this gives First more flexibility (essentially using their overdraft rather than being tied into a bond)??? This might deliver a small benefit but as this was one of the cheaper bonds, I assume that's why the impact is less significant.

The numbers all look pretty positive, only Greyhound are still letting the side down in terms of positive revenue growth, revenue being pretty flat overall could always be a lot worse. It will be interesting to see what effect the positive turnover growth has on profits, also it would be nice if they issued a trading statement 'that was ahead of expectations' or even (I'm going to swear now...o_Oo_Oo_O) show some confidence and re-instate a dividend with the full year results announcement, even if only small one.

With the £250 million bond being refinanced without having much effect on interest charges suggests that not much of the refinancing came from existing cash. The big one would be if they could refinance the 2021 bond early & bring the 8.75% interest rate down to nearer 6% ish. The flexibility you suggest TGW, may be whist they're awaiting proceeds from the Greyhound property sale & Manchester disposals.
 
Last edited:

DragonEast

Member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
266
Go Ahead should be no where near Manchester.They butchered Anglian Bus.They are busy destroying Konnectbus.
East Norfolk isn't Manchester. And First Eastern Counties seem at least to have got their act together in the East Norfolk towns (Norwich Network) and the inter urban Excel route, which left Go Ahead very much playing second fiddle always difficult outside the conurbations. (Though if the carrot of a new fleet for Excel keeps dangling for much longer it'll be the next harvest.)

Go a bit further south though to Essex and it was First that withdrew in Clacton/Harwich area, leaving the urban bits to Go Ahead. I think it could be interesting to see what happens in Essex where First swung to a nearly £3m loss, from just about breaking even. They seem to have the same sort of aging fleet and very little investment that perhaps bedevilled central Manchester too, and with no Regional Mayor funds to come to the rescue it might be difficult to see what is their long-term future, perhaps? (Norwich is doing comparatively well but it hardly offers the support that a Bristol or Leeds might to neighbouring ops though, perhaps? ) Who'd be interested though; apart from Go-Ahead, perhaps?

EDIT: At least historically I think First Essex have been good payers - higher than most of the Home Counties/Anglia, which I've wondered if it's the impediment to a local sale. Not perhaps so much TUPE as stirring up even more discontent among the buyers existing workforce! Add it to what I think is the overriding factor - that I think they have just bitten off far more than they can chew down the years, and are stuffed - and it's not hard to conclude that, in the modern parlance, Essexit may be the only option. They don't have the resources to cope, or any prospect of them at their level of viability; and are too much for anyone else to handle, too. The trouble is, therefore, it could be as messy (and costly) as its namesake. Cornwall may provide a good template, but it was a much simpler and basic operation to start with. As with, I suspect, the successful First (and other) operations elsewhere.
 
Last edited:
Joined
9 Apr 2016
Messages
1,909
Oh dear. I really hate The Go Ahead Group so its very disappointing to see them take over. I have never been impressed with any of their operations. They have very poor customer service and are known to treat their staff very poorly. I have certainly never been impressed with their Brighton & Hove or Metrobus operations down here in the South East area. Go Ahead South Coast is another one that i have never really had any good experiences with either. So this is not really good news for Manchester.

I feel sorry for the people of Manchester who will have to put up with Go Ahead. Its bad enough that Transdev (another completely rubbish operator who i hate) took over Rossendale Transport and messed it up and now Manchester is getting Go Ahead as well.

I was hoping that Arriva or Rotala or Stagecoach would take over who are much better operators. I have always been happy with these three when i have used their services around Manchester.

It will be interesting to see who the other two bus depots will go to.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
I have certainly never been impressed with their Brighton & Hove or Metrobus operations down here in the South East area.

How come they get so much praise, then? They are certainly higher rated than most if not all First operations.
 
Joined
9 Apr 2016
Messages
1,909
Who knows. It has always been a mystery why these operators get so much praise and awards. I have always found them to be terrible operators. Most of this praise and all these awards they get do not involve ordinary passengers or staff. It comes from bus industry managers and professionals. I think if you asked ordinary passengers or staff then their opinions would be a lot different. Whenever i have used them i have not been impressed at all. A huge amount of staff have been leaving Brighton & Hove and Metrobus over the past few years and joining the small independents as they have got fed up with the way they treat their staff.
 

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
9,267
Who knows. It has always been a mystery why these operators get so much praise and awards. I have always found them to be terrible operators. Most of this praise and all these awards they get do not involve ordinary passengers or staff. It comes from bus industry managers and professionals. I think if you asked ordinary passengers or staff then their opinions would be a lot different. Whenever i have used them i have not been impressed at all. A huge amount of staff have been leaving Brighton & Hove and Metrobus over the past few years and joining the small independents as they have got fed up with the way they treat their staff.

How are they "terrible" though? I mean from the passenger's point of view, not staff. Unlike most operators in Britain, they have continuously expanded their services over the last 10-15 years and were one of the first to introduce smartcard payments. They had GPS tracking years and real time info before most other operators. They do next stop announcements, which have long been normal in most countries but which even the much lauded Stagecoach hardly do, if at all. They even continue to produce quality paper literature.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
Oh dear. I really hate The Go Ahead Group so its very disappointing to see them take over. I have never been impressed with any of their operations. They have very poor customer service and are known to treat their staff very poorly. I have certainly never been impressed with their Brighton & Hove or Metrobus operations down here in the South East area. Go Ahead South Coast is another one that i have never really had any good experiences with either. So this is not really good news for Manchester.

I feel sorry for the people of Manchester who will have to put up with Go Ahead. Its bad enough that Transdev (another completely rubbish operator who i hate) took over Rossendale Transport and messed it up and now Manchester is getting Go Ahead as well.

I was hoping that Arriva or Rotala or Stagecoach would take over who are much better operators. I have always been happy with these three when i have used their services around Manchester.

It will be interesting to see who the other two bus depots will go to.


Rotala - 'much better'..........???

I guess you mean just their Preston operation, as they certainly seem to be one of the poorest quality operations everywhere else.


.
 

Cesarcollie

Member
Joined
5 Jun 2016
Messages
524
Quite Possibly Bus And Coach Blackburn of which there are currently 3 Cobalt Clipper B9TLs (GNE) there. But recently they sent an EYMS up to Saltmeadows for repaint so I wouldn’t put it past them if it’s cheaper.

There are plenty of places to get repaints and refurbs done at competitive prices. It is unlikely that any operator would set up a new facility to undertake such work in-house.
 

Surreyman

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
950
Oh dear. I really hate The Go Ahead Group so its very disappointing to see them take over. I have never been impressed with any of their operations. They have very poor customer service and are known to treat their staff very poorly. I have certainly never been impressed with their Brighton & Hove or Metrobus operations down here in the South East area. Go Ahead South Coast is another one that i have never really had any good experiences with either. So this is not really good news for Manchester.

I feel sorry for the people of Manchester who will have to put up with Go Ahead. Its bad enough that Transdev (another completely rubbish operator who i hate) took over Rossendale Transport and messed it up and now Manchester is getting Go Ahead as well.

I was hoping that Arriva or Rotala or Stagecoach would take over who are much better operators. I have always been happy with these three when i have used their services around Manchester.

It will be interesting to see who the other two bus depots will go to.
Surely anyone is better than First?
Go Ahead along with Stagecoach are easily the the best 2 large bus operators in the UK.
I guess everything is subjective but both Brighton and South Coast have won awards for their operations.
Can you give some specific details of your disappointment with Go Ahead?
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
Surely anyone is better than First?
Go Ahead along with Stagecoach are easily the the best 2 large bus operators in the UK.
I guess everything is subjective but both Brighton and South Coast have won awards for their operations.
Can you give some specific details of your disappointment with Go Ahead?

Um not necessarily, First has some really good ops, that are better than both Stagecoach and Go-Ahead!
It's a shame Manchester isn't one of them.
 

KendalKing

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2009
Messages
1,642
Location
North Lancs
Oh dear. I really hate The Go Ahead Group so its very disappointing to see them take over. I have never been impressed with any of their operations. They have very poor customer service and are known to treat their staff very poorly.

I use to work for Go-Ahead group, I found them to be better company to work for then some of the other big companies.
 

Top