Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

Aictos · 18 Feb 2019

The old setup where GN Control was based at Kings Cross with the Kings Cross signallers actually worked as you had the local knowledge now everything is at Three Bridges some of that knowledge has been lost as you probably have some controllers who have no knowledge at all of services on the GN so while they may think they are doing well, in reality they are doing awful which shows.

The best thing that they should have done was to have the former TL/SN/GX controls migrated to Three Bridges with their respective social media desks and have the former GN control migrated to York with their respective social media desk.

Yes I know it means having two control locations but as York will eventually take over both Kings Cross and Peterborough signalling areas it would make sense to migrate GN control there instead of Three Bridges.

It's this dumb migration that is causing all those issues as before if a WGC to MOG service had to run fast for example, the signallers and control were in the same room so communications were not a problem however as you have signallers in Kings Cross and control now in Three Bridges it takes time for communications to get though in time which is why I believe service recovery isn't as good as it could be.

RailUK Forums

Failed Unit · 18 Feb 2019

Don’t disagree. Things are worse since control moved to 3 bridges.

It is very common for a service to skip stops. But follow an all stations service all the way.

In my WGC - Moorgate service it is possible that control don’t understand the track layouts. The WGC - London needed to go to vacate the platform. I doubt the signaller would be keen to put a 75mph 313 service on the fast mainline in the rush hour. The plan would never work. Likewise the Cambridge - Three bridges. I don’t think it can pass stopping services until Stevenage so again a plan unlikely to work unless you hold the stopping service at Cambridge.

jon0844 · 18 Feb 2019

313s rarely go on the fast, but it can happen. The issue is whether there's time, especially with limited crossovers. The key is to run a train fast in front of the next stopper, and I've personally seen the signaller get it wrong.

In some cases the driver will call the signaller and get the signal taken back and then let the other one run first, but there's a timeout on the signal so that in itself means a further delay.

With the increased services to Moorgate and no way for a Moorgate train to WGC to come in on platform 1, I can't see how these problems won't continue. You could tweak timings here and there all day long and still have no chance when it goes wrong.

Failed Unit · 18 Feb 2019

Part of me thinks they should have cancelled the 0724. Used the stock and driver as the 0754 (which was also very late) then tried to recover. Rather than try and fail to run the 0724 fast and continue to mess up the morning peak. If they had done people may have got to London.

The contra peak should be sacrificed. But instead they decided to make travel to Moorgate nearly impossible. Look at some of what the did run. A highly useful ally pally - Finsbury Park service as an example.

But pretty much everything they cut stops from either stayed as late or got later.

jon0844 · 18 Feb 2019

I have a feeling that it's not so easy to swap units/diagrams like this. I know when I was stuck at King's Cross not so long ago, they managed to get an ECS service to substitute a missing/stranded service, with a spare driver, but it took some time to set it up with a new headcode, stopping pattern and so on. I'm assuming it needs clearance from the signaller and other things.

In my case, the driver was spare so there was one less thing to worry about in that regard. With many drivers to change at Finsbury Park, it could have caused other problems if the diagrams didn't match.

Maybe a driver can confirm the process and if it would be quick/easy enough to do over attempting to run fast?

bramling · 18 Feb 2019

jon0844 said:
I have a feeling that it's not so easy to swap units/diagrams like this. I know when I was stuck at King's Cross not so long ago, they managed to get an ECS service to substitute a missing/stranded service, with a spare driver, but it took some time to set it up with a new headcode, stopping pattern and so on. I'm assuming it needs clearance from the signaller and other things.

In my case, the driver was spare so there was one less thing to worry about in that regard. With many drivers to change at Finsbury Park, it could have caused other problems if the diagrams didn't match.

Maybe a driver can confirm the process and if it would be quick/easy enough to do over attempting to run fast?

Running a driver as someone else’s train is a recipe for problems, as there’s the scope for things to become very confused unless *everyone* is fully in the loop. Not saying it never happens, however general rule is anything goes as far as the rolling stock goes (subject to things like a particular train being required back in depot, and not mixing up things like length and stock type where this will cause an issue), however generally it’s not a good idea to go mixing and matching with the driver diagrams.

If a train is going to be made into something else, generally this would be done with the new service’s own booker driver - subject to them being available of course. Another option is of course to use a spare driver, again if one is readily available.

Failed Unit · 18 Feb 2019

I suspect the problem is GTR have no incentive to get the service back to normal.

Network rail will be paying them compensation for the initial delay. They will get paid for all reactionary delay. So the longer it goes on the more GTR get paid.

But they need to do something as their current strategy of missing stops them following a slow train doesn’t work. Sadly as they don’t have revenue risk they don’t care if the lose customers.

In disruption it appears GTR has an incentive to make it last as long as possible to maximise the payment from network rail. I have never yet seen a sensible recovery plan from them other then let’s run empty trains behind stopping services. Reading from above they can’t change diagrams of / trains drivers. So once the disruption happens GTR have no tools to recover.

bramling · 18 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
I suspect the problem is GTR have no incentive to get the service back to normal.

Network rail will be paying them compensation for the initial delay. They will get paid for all reactionary delay. So the longer it goes on the more GTR get paid.

But they need to do something as their current strategy of missing stops them following a slow train doesn’t work. Sadly as they don’t have revenue risk they don’t care if the lose customers.

In disruption it appears GTR has an incentive to make it last as long as possible to maximise the payment from network rail. I have never yet seen a sensible recovery plan from them other then let’s run empty trains behind stopping services. Reading from above they can’t change diagrams of / trains drivers. So once the disruption happens GTR have no tools to recover.

Realistically recovery options are to turn trains short (impractical if the trip has a crew relief at the booked destination), miss stops (inconvenient and often ineffective), reform services into something else (relies on having crew reliefs), or putting the trains away and bringing them out again (very inconvenient and again relies on having crew resources to do it).

I’d suggest the problem is that the timetable makes intensive use of all the railway’s recourses so there often isn’t enough breathing space for recovery measures to be either viable or effective. They’ve tried to do too much with the infrastructure, and have pushed things too far. Virtually every part of the GN is now operated on a perennial knife-edge, and during disruption it is showing.

Failed Unit · 19 Feb 2019

Possibly should post this elsewhere. But tonight 1721 London kx - Cambridge is formed with 700143.

Driver states the 12 car set is down to lack of serviceable 8 coach sets. Can’t stop between Royston and Cambridge.

samuelmorris · 19 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
Possibly should post this elsewhere. But tonight 1721 London kx - Cambridge is formed with 700143.

Driver states the 12 car set is down to lack of serviceable 8 coach sets. Can’t stop between Royston and Cambridge.

Despite the unused units from the services which still aren't in the timetable yet?

Failed Unit · 19 Feb 2019

samuelmorris said:
Despite the unused units from the services which still aren't in the timetable yet?

Considering failure rate of the 700s generally very possible. Although it could be all they had at Hornsey. Very pleased they didn’t cancel it TBH.

philjo · 19 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
Possibly should post this elsewhere. But tonight 1721 London kx - Cambridge is formed with 700143.

Driver states the 12 car set is down to lack of serviceable 8 coach sets. Can’t stop between Royston and Cambridge.

I had the opposite - The 16:54 Cambridge to Three Bridges service was running as 8 coaches instead of the normal 12 this evening. The usual cleaning gang didn't appear to be at Cambridge. the train left with lots of litter on the floor and seats.

Class315 · 19 Feb 2019

I think it's to do with the Brighton Main Line Closure, the Three Bridges - Cambridge 9S** services appear to only run during peak times, during the day the 9S** are replaced by the old 1C** headcodes which are interchangeably worked by 700/0 & 700/1 hence why 12 cars are being used. I haven't fully read my Special traffic notice yet, So I'm not 100% sure but that's what i'm led to believe.

The village stations with a FLU, can only be served in times of disruption & emergencies. Although Shepreth and Foxton aren't cleared to be served by FLU's as of yet on the Down Cambridge.

bramling · 19 Feb 2019

Class315 said:
I think it's to do with the Brighton Main Line Closure, the Three Bridges - Cambridge 9S** services appear to only run during peak times, during the day the 9S** are replaced by the old 1C** headcodes which are interchangeably worked by 700/0 & 700/1 hence why 12 cars are being used. I haven't fully read my Special traffic notice yet, So I'm not 100% sure but that's what i'm led to believe.

The village stations with a FLU, can only be served in times of disruption & emergencies. Although Shepreth and Foxton aren't cleared to be served by FLU's as of yet on the Down Cambridge.

Yes there's amendments to the diagrams applying this week because of the Brighton works, with some services booked to be formed of reduced length undesiros. Perhaps it's simply a case that there's more 8-car versions required with 12-car versions sitting spare?

At least one pair of 365s is also running all-day, doing KX-Cambridge semi-fast services in between the peaks in lieu of the Cambridge/Brighton service. No doubt the punters will appreciate this.

Class315 · 19 Feb 2019

bramling said:
Yes there's amendments to the diagrams applying this week because of the Brighton works, with some services booked to be formed of reduced length undesiros. Perhaps it's simply a case that there's more 8-car versions required with 12-car versions sitting spare?

At least one pair of 365s is also running all-day, doing KX-Cambridge semi-fast services in between the peaks in lieu of the Cambridge/Brighton service. No doubt the punters will appreciate this.

I've worked out from the STN and when I visually saw the 365's yesterday flying through Hornsey on the Down Fast, the timings of the 365 are.

5E32 10+35 Kings Cross - Hornsey EMUD does not run this week, this stock is 2 x 365 1P17 0917 Peterborough - Kings Cross

1C16 1035 London Kings Cross to Cambridge
1C29 1154 Cambridge to London Kings Cross
1C28 1335 London Kings Cross to Cambridge
1C41 1454 Cambridge to London Kings Cross

3R46 16+25 Hornsey EMUD - Kings Cross does not run this week;
The stock off 1C41 berths to work 1R46 16:54 London Kings Cross - Baldock.

grid56126 · 20 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
I suspect the problem is GTR have no incentive to get the service back to normal.

Network rail will be paying them compensation for the initial delay. They will get paid for all reactionary delay. So the longer it goes on the more GTR get paid.

I posted some facts around the myths surrounding PPM / decisions made around delay repay etc etc a while back.

I have over the course of my career cancelled hundreds of trains, terminated / started short / skip stopped into the many hundreds more, both directly and indirectly as a manager overseeing staff that do this. I can assure you that at no time have I ever made a decision or witnessed anybody doing so on the basis the TOC gets more cash for not recovering. Getting the service back as quickly as possible is always the mantra with some notable exceptions to peak flows and various key stations (Airports is one) and these exceptions are based entirely on passenger flows.

The performance teams at a very local level for delay causation do sit in some control rooms, but only so they can see in real time what is going on and NEVER to dispense suggestions that an incident can be "relaxed" as it's not our money!

I sometimes wish I had been able to make decisions based on delay repay / PPM avoidance or indeed internal railway politics to save my paymaster a few bob because that means I would have had the luxury of a meal break on a lot more shifts as I would have a lot of spare time to be making those choices! We don't have time to even consider such options.

Had I not changed jobs recently I might have been in a position to arrange a visit so you could see this with your own eyes, but alas that is not possible now. But please rest assured the scrutiny of the DFT and others ensures what is suggested cannot and has not happened on my watch or on that of those around me.

Failed Unit · 20 Feb 2019

grid56126 said:
I posted some facts around the myths surrounding PPM / decisions made around delay repay etc etc a while back.

Thanks for your response. Could you help me understand a couple of common decisions that are made every single day on GN that I just can’t understand how these are supposed to recover the service.

Train 1 should stop at 2/10 stations
Train 2 should stop at 10/10 stations and is timetabled to 2 minutes after train 1.

Train 1 is 5 mins late so control decide to run it fast to its destination. Train 2 leaves on time so train 1 is now behind it. Train 1 loses more time as it can’t pass train 2. What was the benefit to dropping stops from train 1? In some situations it would be possible for train 1 to use a different line but this rarely happens. In others it is 2 track railway (between Cambridge and Hitchin) so it was never going to pass the all stations.

Situation 2. It is the morning peak and trains are delayed north of London. Not sending them to Moorgate saves turnaround time. However it leaves Finsbury Park and Kings Cross underground dangerously overcrowded. In this situation why is it better to do this rather than get passengers into their preferred destination? Yes the disruption lasts longer but the Moorgate - North flows (in the morning peak) have a lot less people using them. So running them fast / cancelling is a lot less disruptive to the majority of passengers then diverting to Kings Cross. Especially with the overcrowding levels on the trains that do make it to Moorgate.

Is this just the controllers are now too remote from the route?

OwenB · 20 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
Considering failure rate of the 700s generally very possible. Although it could be all they had at Hornsey. Very pleased they didn’t cancel it TBH.

Funny you should mention this. My regular train 5.37 HAT-KGX was cancelled this morning due to 'more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time'.

jon0844 · 20 Feb 2019

OwenB said:
Funny you should mention this. My regular train 5.37 HAT-KGX was cancelled this morning due to 'more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time'.

Siemens need to put out XX number of trains per day. I assume they're unable to do this because of issues, and the inability to move some trains around during the blockade (given TL trains do venture over to run on GN routes and vice versa) must be making it especially difficult to work around.

TL users have had quite a few diagrams with 8 cars standing in for 12 cars since the start of the new timetable. While I am still unsure what the problems with the 700s are, there are clearly some issues with them not being 'serviceable'. Whether door problems, brake problems, or even where they can be stabled overnight, it's one aspect that needs fixing - but isn't work being carried out at Cambridge to make more room? Could that help?

(I have no idea about 387s and 365s as they're now just a luxury WGC and Hatfield users see occasionally on a weekend when a driver who can't sign 700s is working).

Failed Unit · 20 Feb 2019

How will the blockage make any difference? Is access to the three bridges depot blocked? I thought the blockade was further south so shouldn’t cause issues of rotating class 700s.

I have noticed that a very small pool is used on that London - Cambridge services.

tsr · 20 Feb 2019

Failed Unit said:
How will the blockage make any difference? Is access to the three bridges depot blocked? I thought the blockade was further south so shouldn’t cause issues of rotating class 700s.

It shouldn't do. In fact there are enough services terminating at Three Bridges and shunting via the depot that it should actually be easier to swap units over. "Should be"...

Failed Unit · 20 Feb 2019

tsr said:
It shouldn't do. In fact there are enough services terminating at Three Bridges and shunting via the depot that it should actually be easier to swap units over. "Should be"...

Are they also using less sets this week anyway with no diagrams to Brighton?

387star · 20 Feb 2019

Merstham doesn't need a twice hourly off peak tl service plus southerns
Place is dead

tsr · 20 Feb 2019

387star said:
Merstham doesn't need a twice hourly off peak tl service plus southerns
Place is dead

The thing is that the passenger flow at Merstham is quite uneven and also quite unpredictable.

There always seem to be many more people boarding and alighting northbound/Up than southbound/Down during the off-peak hours. It also tends to see a spike in passenger numbers mid and late evening as well. None of these factors are well-suited to a consistent clockface timetable throughout the day.

The old off-peak service - during the day, between the peaks - used to have 3 trains to/from London per hour, against Coulsdon South's 4 and Redhill's 6. This was about the right proportional balance of trains per passenger numbers, without overdoing it, but they weren't evenly spaced through the hour, and all went to London Bridge.

(The Tonbridge services never used to stop very much off-peak, instead running fast between Coulsdon South and Redhill, and vice-versa, which was absolutely the correct decision, as only the merest handful of passengers will ever travel specifically between Merstham and the Redhill-Tonbridge Line stations.)

The Box Photter · 20 Feb 2019

Class315 said:
I think it's to do with the Brighton Main Line Closure, the Three Bridges - Cambridge 9S** services appear to only run during peak times, during the day the 9S** are replaced by the old 1C** headcodes which are interchangeably worked by 700/0 & 700/1 hence why 12 cars are being used. I haven't fully read my Special traffic notice yet, So I'm not 100% sure but that's what i'm led to believe.

The village stations with a FLU, can only be served in times of disruption & emergencies. Although Shepreth and Foxton aren't cleared to be served by FLU's as of yet on the Down Cambridge.

Don't class 700s have SDO?

petersi · 20 Feb 2019

The Box Photter said:
Don't class 700s have SDO?

Yes
More a problem of trains blacking level crossings. Particularly foxton as it would block the second Main route between Royston and Cambridge

infobleep · 20 Feb 2019

ijmad said:
We're a rare breed, I admit, but there are those of us out there who actually prefer a harder seat and find the 700s seats more comfortable than the (way too cushiony) 319s...

I like the declassified first class sections. Don't get that as much on other GTR services, although I admit some do have it.

387star · 20 Feb 2019

tsr said:
The thing is that the passenger flow at Merstham is quite uneven and also quite unpredictable.

There always seem to be many more people boarding and alighting northbound/Up than southbound/Down during the off-peak hours. It also tends to see a spike in passenger numbers mid and late evening as well. None of these factors are well-suited to a consistent clockface timetable throughout the day.

The old off-peak service - during the day, between the peaks - used to have 3 trains to/from London per hour, against Coulsdon South's 4 and Redhill's 6. This was about the right proportional balance of trains per passenger numbers, without overdoing it, but they weren't evenly spaced through the hour, and all went to London Bridge.

(The Tonbridge services never used to stop very much off-peak, instead running fast between Coulsdon South and Redhill, and vice-versa, which was absolutely the correct decision, as only the merest handful of passengers will ever travel specifically between Merstham and the Redhill-Tonbridge Line stations.)

Interesting

Coulsdon south has a very high passenger flow on the fast TL to East Croydon Peterborough service . Must be very good for them just two stops to London Bridge

You'd think flashing yellows could be fitted for stoats nest in the down direction

Bikeman78 · 20 Feb 2019

BRblue said:
I beg to differ... quite a few 377's vice 313's yesterday due to higher than normal maintenance requirements, and this is becoming a regular occurrence too.

The Brighton 313s have never been as good. Most of the PEP fleets have an MTIN around 10000-15000 miles. The 314s have always been the worst. Given they only do 300-400 miles per day, we're talking roughly one fault per unit per month. That's any delay of three minutes or more; not every fault is train cancelled and unit out of service. Strangely the Shenfield 315s are much better than the Chingford/Enfield units, despite them being maintained at the same depot and having similar duties.

philjo · 20 Feb 2019

A few interesting stopping patterns this evening. It seems that several Moorgate-Welwyn services are cancelled.
Some Kings Cross - Cambridge stoppers calling additionally at New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and New Barnet.
So did the 17:12 Ely fast service !

GTR Journeycheck:
17:12 London Kings Cross to Ely due 18:24 will call additionally at New Southgate, Oakleigh Park and New Barnet.
This is due to the train making extra stops because a train was cancelled.
Last Updated :20/02/2019 15:56

So this would have then run fast from New Barnet to Ashwell & Morden !

Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member