The shorty HSTs aren't slam door, they are sliding door.
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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?
- Thread starter Andy Pacer
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The shorty HSTs aren't slam door, they are sliding door.
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RailUK Forums
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
They've received all cascaded stock they were expecting by this time, according to the franchise agreement (769s notwithstanding, as they were a later alteration to the original agreement).
They are due to receive further vehicles during 2022 (don't recall the numbers but the franchise agreement specifies they must be equivalent to 170s) but nothing more due until those.
The agreement was amended for the 769s though, so there's a case to be made for other tweaks such as 323s vice 319s.
sprinterguy
Established Member
There's a lot of optimistic ifs and buts in your suppositions. Granted that my views are no less speculative, but:
- As far as I can tell (Based on things like the Northern unit refurbishments thread) there aren't that many units away for PRM mods at any one time. Assuming that this work can be completed before the end of the year, which hardly seems certain, I can't imagine it'll make a great deal of difference to the number of available units.
- Even at it's most optimistic, the number of units released by Bolton electrification alone only accounts for a minority of Newton Heath's Pacer allocation.
- Introduction of the class 769s is already delayed and there seems to be no promised date for when the first unit will even enter service.
- I'm not sure what the original introduction dates for the class 195s were, but two or three class 195s in service from May seems paltry when you consider that ALL of the class 144s and 114 class 142 vehicles were supposed to be off lease by that time. With seven months to go at that stage until the deadline, it seems that we will only be beginning to see the first units going off lease.
- Northern have received all of their planned cascaded units, and from my perambulations around the Northern network many of these seem to already be in service, albeit not all. This has had no effect on Pacer numbers and the only stock within the Northern franchise they may be able to retain to make up the numbers is the class 153s.
- The odds of Northern introducing to the franchise any stock beyond that specified by the franchise agreement seems little more than zero, it'd negatively affect their subsidy/premium profiles. Class 67s and mark 4s in particular would be wildly inappropriate for most Northern services and spare sets are unlikely to be available before the end of the year anyway.
18 x 2-car units are stipulated.
Yes, but those are also all in service with other operators. If what we're talking about is a short term measure to allow conversion/upgrade of other units and Pacers to come of lease, then nobody is about to pay for ancient Mk3 stock to be fitted with new doors and whatever else for the sake of a few months at most. Never. Going. To. Happen.
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
There are still 4 150's to come from GWR (Including one they sent down).
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
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- 15,268
This has been explained numerous times on here, yet you clearly do not get it. DfT control all changes to fleets - they micro-manage to a very large extent. This includes authority to make modifications such as PRM work. This is not free: it has to be paid for. And it is DfT that has left us with the current position simply through its own incompetence.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
3 = 150202, 150207 and 150216 but won't be for awhile yet. Perhaps 150001 and 150002 also in the future
The implicit point in this post (and in most saying Pacers will stay) is that Northern will pay more to lease a larger fleet than they planned when they won the franchise. Revenue is below expectations so this simply will not happen, even though the result will be overcrowding. If fewer 195s are in service at the end of the year then Northern will have a some money spare for leases on other units but they won't spend above that.
I don't know how many ways I can say "tough" to the argument that the cascaded units have not reduced overcrowding or allowed pacers to go. There are plenty of northerners who have used pacers as a symbol of ill treatment by London based politicians. The result has is that no sane Secretary of State will grant derogations for Pacers. Northern will have to scrap together extra units at the end of the year, delay introducing some connect services and short form services. Derogations will be easier to obtain for any other units. I am surprised I managed to get a HST conversation started though.
I think I am best avoiding this thread until the first pacers go. The howls of outrage when they go will be amusing: "The 6:58 from x to y was run by a single 150 and was full to standing. The Pacers I have moaned about for several years must stay for as long as there is peak time overcrowding!"
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R G NOW.
Member
I have seen a picture of one on platform 4 at Bristol tm, and it was painted dark green and had sliding doors at the ends similar as the ones on I-E-T-S.
northernchris
Established Member
- Joined
- 24 Jul 2011
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- 1,509
Are Northern not due to receive the 3 150s currently with WMT?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
jonesy3001
Established Member
Supposed to be later this year when the 230s take over the routes they're on.
I hate the Pacer with a passion , but let's be clear , why it has a place , equall in a different way to the HST.
The pacer did for the secondty and limes ' beyond quiet - early ' community type railways ' way off main routes
What the HST has done for high-speed rail travel, getting people from Around with minimal fuss.
The huge fault with the pacer was not to re engineer classic DMU running gear and really cushion the ride .
As a child seeing the first BR Dark blue and an almost shining white top , parked at the double bay platform In Leeds, was launched day I think 1995 .
First a ride on the I think Metro cammel so well preserved, itself back then not sporting the plus 50's interiors on so many preserved lines of today .
But hard bus seats ( a leathal lack of upper back and head rests.
It was plauged by smokers on Ice cold days , opening the ' transem window ', many a cross words across a coach over this .then there was the belching smoke , making one forget it was a diesel not some magical steam engine .
And Slow . That too though did exactly the same again as the pacer to follow .
Boarding the pacer i as a young child though it was a wow product.
Had they have been mounted on bogies , they might remain in service .
But after a high profile destruction in am accident , it's : Tin can body ' kept on going . There are a few running about , notablely whithrop siding railway ( old Waverley south section .
Without it would have seen a tranche of closures .
We do need it gone and gone yesterday but NOT replaced with a class 150 .
156/158 or 170 all acceptable trains .
The 158 being about the best .
There is only 2 opinions to Pacers on here.
You either love them or loath them!
There is very little in between it seems.
But actually,there is a lot in between,and it's
the inbetween we have to respect them for.
It was probably an exciting time for many when they were introduced brand new,and will be a sad day for many when the last ones come off.
They are not life expired,they still work and have lasted longer than planned granted, they are still reliable,although modern replacements are needed to keep up with current demands.
Their replacements however are still a while from seeing any service.
So that is what people are really moaning about.
Shiny new trains just sitting there waiting to get accepted into traffic.
The Pacers deserve their place in BR history just as every other class does.
As poor as everyone would have you believe,they wouldnt be 35 years in service for their unpopularity and a lot of work in maintaining these day in day out deserves
the same respect for keeping these going.
I have always found them reliable on the many hundreds of journey's I've had on them.
Its only in rush hour crushes when Pacers turn up instead of a 150 that the anti pacer brigade attack.
For those who actually ain't bothered about them,they are just another train.
If Pacers tagged onto the back of sprinters at peak hours,would you avoid getting on the pacer unit even if it meant you stood for your journey?
Some here would go that far I reckon!
I will be sad to see them go tbh,even though 319s have replaced many Pacers in Liverpool,I have noticed a massive improvement here with the electrics.
And mostly because they have more carriages and are faster and cleaner.
It is obvious that Northern will hang onto Pacers as long as possible,and in a PR stunt,will put up posters/media at all their main stations/websites saying...new trains on this route from tomorrow lol. Just to make themselves look good.
We will see eh?
Great Northern will pull the same stunt too.
One day,all 313s,the next,all 717s.
That will make them both look fantastic overnight.
You either love them or loath them!
There is very little in between it seems.
But actually,there is a lot in between,and it's
the inbetween we have to respect them for.
It was probably an exciting time for many when they were introduced brand new,and will be a sad day for many when the last ones come off.
They are not life expired,they still work and have lasted longer than planned granted, they are still reliable,although modern replacements are needed to keep up with current demands.
Their replacements however are still a while from seeing any service.
So that is what people are really moaning about.
Shiny new trains just sitting there waiting to get accepted into traffic.
The Pacers deserve their place in BR history just as every other class does.
As poor as everyone would have you believe,they wouldnt be 35 years in service for their unpopularity and a lot of work in maintaining these day in day out deserves
the same respect for keeping these going.
I have always found them reliable on the many hundreds of journey's I've had on them.
Its only in rush hour crushes when Pacers turn up instead of a 150 that the anti pacer brigade attack.
For those who actually ain't bothered about them,they are just another train.
If Pacers tagged onto the back of sprinters at peak hours,would you avoid getting on the pacer unit even if it meant you stood for your journey?
Some here would go that far I reckon!
I will be sad to see them go tbh,even though 319s have replaced many Pacers in Liverpool,I have noticed a massive improvement here with the electrics.
And mostly because they have more carriages and are faster and cleaner.
It is obvious that Northern will hang onto Pacers as long as possible,and in a PR stunt,will put up posters/media at all their main stations/websites saying...new trains on this route from tomorrow lol. Just to make themselves look good.
We will see eh?
Great Northern will pull the same stunt too.
One day,all 313s,the next,all 717s.
That will make them both look fantastic overnight.
R G NOW.
Member
Yes!!, The same with marmite, you either love it, or hate it?.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I'm sure this is an interesting post, but I can't make head nor tail of it unfortunately... can anyone translate?
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I'm indifferent... just as I am with Pacers!
Then again I was at Brighouse yesterday heading home to Batley and the PIS said the next train was formed of 4 carriages (as most on that route seem to be)... what turned up? A single bus-seated 142 which was rather busy. Well of course I bailed at Mirfield, had a swift jar in the Navvy, and caught the following 170 instead.
This morning from Wigan to Manchester we had a short formed 2 car 156 and left people behind at Westhoughton and Bolton. Tonight we have a 156 and a 142, everyone was able to board, just.
As much as I dislike them and think they’ve damaged the image of the railway, if it’s a 142 or not being able to travel I like 99% of punters would always take the 142...
As much as I dislike them and think they’ve damaged the image of the railway, if it’s a 142 or not being able to travel I like 99% of punters would always take the 142...
Chrisyd
Member
- Joined
- 16 May 2015
- Messages
- 204
This is the point for me, the Blackburn/Clitheroe to Rochdale have had at least 1 diagram a day short formed for the last few weeks, the idea that a, for now, compliant and route cleared train should be sat in a scrapyard whilst people get left behind doesn’t make sense to me.
No one will be happier to see them go than me, the screech on the curve leaving Bolton through Bradshawgate tunnel will not be missed, but that is when replacements are ready, not an arbitrary date!
Killingworth
Established Member
The Pacer has been outdated since soon after it was introduced. We've needed better since it was conceived. However, speaking from a line where we've lived with them for about 35 years another few months wouldn't be too bad. Rather a Pacer than nothing is how we've always viewed it.
But we're now getting 150s for many services and we can experience what we've been missing. Loadings are increasing and may be seen to be increasing when more revenue is collected. Still 30 years old but there's a little more space and a more comfortable ride.
Without a deadline I suspect 'a few more months' would become a few more years, even another decade. When they've gone we'll certainly miss them. They've served remarkably well.
The next battle needs engaging to ensure capacity is provided to meet current and future traffic loadings. Seeing passengers turned away from an hourly service because there's not even space to stand is ridiculous.
There will always be this argument. Peak time trains are always going to be crowded, and removing a class of train from service (even once every new/additional unit is in service) will always exacerbate the crowding.
Pacers need to go (and have needed to for a long, long time). Whenever the arbitrary deadline is set, it will always be an arbitrary deadline, and it will always be a rush to meet it. That's just how the world, the railway, business, and human beings work.
I really think that it's time the wailing and gnashing of teeth stopped now, and we concentrated on the good things the future will (hopefully, eventually) bring.
Pacers need to go (and have needed to for a long, long time). Whenever the arbitrary deadline is set, it will always be an arbitrary deadline, and it will always be a rush to meet it. That's just how the world, the railway, business, and human beings work.
I really think that it's time the wailing and gnashing of teeth stopped now, and we concentrated on the good things the future will (hopefully, eventually) bring.
It’s not just overcrowding though is it?
It’s people being unable to board and being left on the platform. That means being unable to get to work or get home to pick their kids up. It causes aggressive confrontations with train crew and other passengers as happened on the Oxford Road to Lime Street service earlier. Having to stand is tolerated by most I think, not being able to board is another thing entirely and leads to people abandoning the railway for their cars.
I use London overground very occasionally for work. I’m always amazed by the spare capacity that rolls around off peak in London completely empty. I don’t see how Northern can grow passenger numbers significantly without additional peak capacity.
I do agree the Pacers have to go and I do understand that not setting a deadline would have led to them hanging around forever. There needs to be continued service delivery after they go though...
It’s people being unable to board and being left on the platform. That means being unable to get to work or get home to pick their kids up. It causes aggressive confrontations with train crew and other passengers as happened on the Oxford Road to Lime Street service earlier. Having to stand is tolerated by most I think, not being able to board is another thing entirely and leads to people abandoning the railway for their cars.
I use London overground very occasionally for work. I’m always amazed by the spare capacity that rolls around off peak in London completely empty. I don’t see how Northern can grow passenger numbers significantly without additional peak capacity.
I do agree the Pacers have to go and I do understand that not setting a deadline would have led to them hanging around forever. There needs to be continued service delivery after they go though...
The answer to that isn't to keep Pacers, it's to add capacity in other ways. But that is very, very definitely a discussion for another thread. Even though, really, I'm pretty sure you agree.
Killingworth
Established Member
I'm planning a group walking event in the Peak District on a Saturday in June. The one we were organising from Dore for October had to be cancelled due to the strikes. We wanted to use the 10.14 out of Sheffield, 10.21 at Dore & Totley. It's not possible to contemplate it. Even in February it's all but impossible for everyone to get aboard that train at Dore, see below last Saturday after the guard had marched up and down the platform to squeeze everyone on. (Successfully, but one got off because he and his 2 year old son couldn't bear the crush.) From Grindleford it's only possible to board if others get off.
No matter, we'll walk over the top to Grindleford and hope we can get aboard to come back. Not so good for those boarding this train having to travel like this for an hour to Manchester. Apparently the 9.14 Pacer had been as bad. The 11.14 was 150 where only a few had to stand.
Much as we respect the Pacers for their stalwart service they have to go. I'm afraid the 150s will soon be coming in for opprobrium because of their age and further capacity issues, but at least there's a little more space.
Agreed. I'd be delighted to see both classes go. But I'll settle for bidding farewell to the Pacers for now.
So are 195's going to run on the Scunthorpe all stations to then via Doncaster onto Lincoln , or will it be a 158/170.
Really don't want a 150 scunthorpe is bad enough , Pacers were an insult .
No 153 either .
The only reasonable ' Sprinters are the ' Scotrail refurbished units , but cannot find an accurate answer.
What will replace the pacer that stops at Crowle ?
Really don't want a 150 scunthorpe is bad enough , Pacers were an insult .
No 153 either .
The only reasonable ' Sprinters are the ' Scotrail refurbished units , but cannot find an accurate answer.
What will replace the pacer that stops at Crowle ?
According to Wikipedia (I know, but I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong) a PRM converted 150 and a 2 car 195 have the exact same number of seats, 123.
AIUI it would have been possible to cram more seats - a lot more - into a 195 BUT it's a trade off against standing room. The standing room is much needed in the peaks, to avoid leaving people on platforms, but the extra seats are usually not needes on lightly loaded services the rest of the day.
Always getting a seat would be lovely, but it's not going to happen, so it's total capacity (including standing) that matters, more than just the number of seats.
This is (partly) why replacing pacers matters so much - they're just not big enough.
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