Parliamentary debate today: reopening the railway between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen

HouseOfCommons · 20 Feb 2019

Hi all,

We just wanted to draw your attention to a 30 minute debate in Parliament today on reopening the railway between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen. The debate will be lead by Jonathan Edwards, MP for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr and will start at 4pm.

You can watch it live at https://parliamentlive.tv but we will also post links on this thread to the video recording and Hansard transcript when they become available.

For some background on the MP's position, this is an article he wrote in the Western Mail [Twitter link]:

RailUK Forums

Spartacus · 20 Feb 2019

I see he's basically ignoring previous reopenings in Wales and making it a country vs country thing. I REALLY HATE that sort of rhetoric, especially while ignoring the facts. My wife comes from along the line, and we're heading there this weekend, but a railway would do little what a high quality limited stop bus service couldn't do a great deal cheaper, except that if the railway is rebuilt the bus will still be needed as on the southern half the line is usually well away from the main road and the towns and villages along it. There's better cases for reopening elsewhere in Wales, nevermind the rest of Britain.

LNW-GW Joint · 20 Feb 2019

The important economic rail link between north and south Wales is the Marches route, now managed and operated entirely from within Wales despite crossing the border 4 times.
It also provides services across the English Marches and to the major economic areas of Bristol, Liverpool and Manchester which a coastal route could not do.
It may be indirect for folk in Bangor and the coast, but the journey time from Bangor (on WG's special express) is less than 4 hours which won't be improved via a coastal route.
It also connects more people in Wales (east-west as well as north-south) than any other possible route.
If there is a local business case for reopening sections along the coast then fine, but it's delusional to think that they could form a meaningfully economic through route.

I suspect this campaign is really a bid to pressure the Welsh Government to spend a large chunk of the HS2 "Barnett consequentials" in west Wales.
The UK Treasury/DfT will not pay much attention to such devolved matters, and other parts of Wales will have something to say about WG transport priorities.

Tobbes · 20 Feb 2019

£775m for Bangor - Afon Wen and Aber - Carmarthen plus improvements to make the through-route time competitive Bangor - Cardiff also feels rather optimistic....

Bertie the bus · 20 Feb 2019

I thought transport in Wales had been devolved. Why is parliamentary time being taken up with this? If the Welsh want the line reopened then the Welsh Assembly can reopen it – and pay for it.

Clip · 20 Feb 2019

Bertie the bus said:
I thought transport in Wales had been devolved. Why is parliamentary time being taken up with this? If the Welsh want the line reopened then the Welsh Assembly can reopen it – and pay for it.

Trying to get extra funds I would imagine

Llanigraham · 20 Feb 2019

I suggest members read the previous long thread about this proposal.

www.railforums.co.uk/threads/carmarthen-to-aberystwyth-reopening.109071

ForTheLoveOf · 20 Feb 2019

Bertie the bus said:
I thought transport in Wales had been devolved. Why is parliamentary time being taken up with this? If the Welsh want the line reopened then the Welsh Assembly can reopen it – and pay for it.

They are effectively asking for central funds towards it.

Bertie the bus · 20 Feb 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
They are effectively asking for central funds towards it.

I'm aware of that. My point is why is the UK Parliament even giving time over to discuss it? Transport has been devolved, a budget has been agreed. Work within it and if you want extra cut back on other things. Don't demand devolution and then expect the rest of the UK to pay for extras.

LNW-GW Joint · 20 Feb 2019

Bertie the bus said:
I'm aware of that. My point is why is the UK Parliament even giving time over to discuss it? Transport has been devolved, a budget has been agreed. Work within it and if you want extra cut back on other things. Don't demand devolution and then expect the rest of the UK to pay for extras.

It's not been fully devolved.
DfT/ORR still set NR's budget (with input from WG) and still have strategic oversight over rail.
Valleys will transfer to WG, and they will let/manage the TfW franchise.
But ICWC/ICGW/XC franchises are still specified, let and managed by DfT, including the Welsh sections (though WG do want to take control).
The linkage to HS2 is a tactic to tap into DfT funds for equivalent spend in Wales.

Mikey C · 20 Feb 2019

I wonder how many people attended the debate, seeing as there have been one or two somewhat more significant political events this week

vlad · 20 Feb 2019

Reopening the Afon Wen to Bangor line is going to annoy the Welsh Highland people. It'd almost certainly need a new route through Caernarfon as well.

6Gman · 20 Feb 2019

He claims 250,000 people are "forced" to us the bus. Where does that figure come from?

If it's an annual figure it implies about 700 per day.

The buses between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen must be a money-spinner ...

6Gman · 20 Feb 2019

vlad said:
Reopening the Afon Wen to Bangor line is going to annoy the Welsh Highland people. It'd almost certainly need a new route through Caernarfon as well.

Isn't quite a lot of the old route now in other uses? And finding a route through Caernarfon would be ... challenging. To put it mildly.

Tobbes · 20 Feb 2019

6Gman said:
Isn't quite a lot of the old route now in other uses? And finding a route through Caernarfon would be ... challenging. To put it mildly.

Presumably if you were actually serious about doing this, you'd re-use the SG formation, tunnel and find a work around for the Morrisons. From the existing NG station, you'd take over the cycleway and use that for SG; this would mean removing the (new) NG station, but if you were going to all this trouble, then there's no reason that the NG couldn't be relocated into the car park below the castle, even if this means crossing the SG on the flat, as it does in Portmadoc. Not sure what you'd do with Dinas, but the current NG platforms are the old SG alignment IIRC, so changing it back to that (given that this is money-no-object project, it would appear) could be made to make it worth the WHR's while. If I have my history right, the original NG line came through here: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.1031003,-4.2770401,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suX8Q096m-ltr_T67OPs_Jg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 , through this characteristically NWNGR bridge: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.103...4!1suX8Q096m-ltr_T67OPs_Jg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Unless of course someone fancied running 2'/SG mixed guage track from Caernarfon to Dinas....

6Gman · 20 Feb 2019

Tobbes said:
Presumably if you were actually serious about doing this, you'd re-use the SG formation, tunnel and find a work around for the Morrisons.

Squeezing it past Galeri / Travelodge / etc would be ... well, impossible surely. The tunnel is, of course, now a road tunnel - and very useful too. Not sure you'd be allowed to put trains through it - I seem to recall there were questions about its structural integrity.

CambrianCoast · 20 Feb 2019

It’d make more economic sense to reopen the line from Bangor to Afonwen. With a large proportion of jobs in north west Wales concentrated primarily around Bangor and Caernarfon (local authority, NHS, Parc Menai etc) the line would provide a more economic alternative to travelling by car to work. Buses have become a bit of a pick n mix and a lot of emphasis being put on the new Bontnewydd bypass, a railway offer would be an excellent addition as a green transport option. Plenty of land between Afonwen and Bangor to develop park and rides and create an integrated transport offer to make it attractive to prospective passengers. I’d imagine the run from Afonwen to Bangor would be pretty swift adding a station possibly at Parc Menai would be great. It’d be interesting from a timetabling perspective too with a proportion of services running in loops possibly along the Cambrian all the way round.

Tobbes · 20 Feb 2019

CambrianCoast said:
It’d make more economic sense to reopen the line from Bangor to Afonwen. With a large proportion of jobs in north west Wales concentrated primarily around Bangor and Caernarfon (local authority, NHS, Parc Menai etc) the line would provide a more economic alternative to travelling by car to work. Buses have become a bit of a pick n mix and a lot of emphasis being put on the new Bontnewydd bypass, a railway offer would be an excellent addition as a green transport option. Plenty of land between Afonwen and Bangor to develop park and rides and create an integrated transport offer to make it attractive to prospective passengers. I’d imagine the run from Afonwen to Bangor would be pretty swift adding a station possibly at Parc Menai would be great. It’d be interesting from a timetabling perspective too with a proportion of services running in loops possibly along the Cambrian all the way round.

How would you deal with Caernarfon?

CambrianCoast · 20 Feb 2019

Tobbes said:
How would you deal with Caernarfon?

Personally, I don’t feel Caernarfon is as much of an issue as others feel. Balaclafa car park would make a perfect site for a new station and then the line could cut below Morrisons along the old Shell oil site and then onwards onto the original formation towards Bangor. What could be seen as advantageous is that the majority of the old railway land (except for Morrisons and the WHR of course) is still owned by Gwynedd Council which could potentially make things a little easier should things progress. I did notice last week that there was a gap between the new WHR station building and the original retaining wall which did make me think whether this was a conscious strategic decision or an engineering one. It could potentially be wide enough for a single standard gauge line maybe, but of course from my perspective that’s purely speculation and wishful thinking of course, but maybe someone else can jump in to clarify that point? South of Caernarfon may be more of an issue with the WHR but then again, I guess where there’d be a will there’d be a way. Felinheli in my opinion would be more of a challenge with the development of housing on parts of the old formation as well as the widening of the road into the village from the Caernarfon end and the loss of the old over bridge. It’s nice to see however that the subject is still open for discussion and that there is an appetite to look at reopening some of the old lines that could potentially make a huge difference to communities and the local economy.

Tobbes · 20 Feb 2019

CambrianCoast said:
Personally, I don’t feel Caernarfon is as much of an issue as others feel. Balaclafa car park would make a perfect site for a new station and then the line could cut below Morrisons along the old Shell oil site and then onwards onto the original formation towards Bangor. What could be seen as advantageous is that the majority of the old railway land (except for Morrisons and the WHR of course) is still owned by Gwynedd Council which could potentially make things a little easier should things progress. I did notice last week that there was a gap between the new WHR station building and the original retaining wall which did make me think whether this was a conscious strategic decision or an engineering one. It could potentially be wide enough for a single standard gauge line maybe, but of course from my perspective that’s purely speculation and wishful thinking of course, but maybe someone else can jump in to clarify that point? South of Caernarfon may be more of an issue with the WHR but then again, I guess where there’d be a will there’d be a way. Felinheli in my opinion would be more of a challenge with the development of housing on parts of the old formation as well as the widening of the road into the village from the Caernarfon end and the loss of the old over bridge. It’s nice to see however that the subject is still open for discussion and that there is an appetite to look at reopening some of the old lines that could potentially make a huge difference to communities and the local economy.

That's very sensible. Let's do it!

CambrianCoast · 20 Feb 2019

Tobbes said:
That's very sensible. Let's do it!

Haha I like your style. See you in Morrisons car park :lol:

Tobbes · 20 Feb 2019

CambrianCoast said:
Haha I like your style. See you in Morrisons car park

Excellent, BYO JCB....

edwin_m · 21 Feb 2019

How did this jump from Carmarthen to Caernarfon?

HouseOfCommons · 21 Feb 2019

Yesterday the debate went ahead and featured contributions from a variety of MPs with constituencies in Wales including Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd), Chris Evans (Labour, Islwyn), and Simon Hart (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire).

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Andrew Jones, responded setting out the Government's position.

The debate is now available to watch on Parliamentlive.tv. You can also read the transcript on Hansard.

For more about Westminster Hall debates, here's a quick explainer.

Hope you've found this interesting. We'll do our best to keep you up to speed with any rail-related debates and legislation in the future.

Tobbes · 21 Feb 2019

edwin_m said:
How did this jump from Carmarthen to Caernarfon?

Because the PC MP behind the debate was framing the case for Carmarthen-Aber in terms of the need for a western through route from Bangor-Cardiff wholly within Wales .

krus_aragon · 21 Feb 2019

edwin_m said:
How did this jump from Carmarthen to Caernarfon?

My wife has been getting the two names confused for years, largely due to her accent (Carmarthen vs Carnarven). :/

But other than the local MP's angle on things, it was really a debate on Barnett funding formulae, HS2 consequestials, and the devolution of rail infrastructure funding to Wales.

WideRanger · 21 Feb 2019

HouseOfCommons said:
Yesterday the debate went ahead and featured contributions from a variety of MPs with constituencies in Wales including Liz Saville-Roberts (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd), Chris Evans (Labour, Islwyn), and Simon Hart (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire).

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Andrew Jones, responded setting out the Government's position.

The debate is now available to watch on Parliamentlive.tv. You can also read the transcript on Hansard.

For more about Westminster Hall debates, here's a quick explainer.

Hope you've found this interesting. We'll do our best to keep you up to speed with any rail-related debates and legislation in the future.

This is a great example of engagement. Thanks!

bb21 · 22 Feb 2019

I don't want to be a party pooper nor delete some of the well-written ideas but can we please not be sidetracked by speculation about Caernarfon please, which we had plenty of in the previous thread. The topic of this one is pretty clearly defined so if we could stick to that it would be most appreciated. Thank you.

krus_aragon · 22 Feb 2019

bb21 said:
I don't want to be a party pooper nor delete some of the well-written ideas but can we please not be sidetracked by speculation about Caernarfon please, which we had plenty of in the previous thread. The topic of this one is pretty clearly defined so if we could stick to that it would be most appreciated. Thank you.

Point taken, but the Parlimentary debate itself drifted from just Aberystwyth - Carmarthen to include Afon Wen - Bangor (via Caernarfon) too, as part of the old "North to South without going through England" chestnut.

Our MPs seem to be as bad as us for topic drift!

6Gman · 23 Feb 2019

krus_aragon said:
Point taken, but the Parlimentary debate itself drifted from just Aberystwyth - Carmarthen to include Afon Wen - Bangor (via Caernarfon) too, as part of the old "North to South without going through England" chestnut.

Our MPs seem to be as bad as us for topic drift!

Given that the largest town in North Wales is Wrexham, which would benefit not one jot from a West Coast North-South rail link, I fear there's a certain type of narrow-minded bigot within Plaid Cymru# who would happily ask for a new railway from Chirk to Abergavenny for the sole purpose of not having to set wheel in England.

# This is not a criticism of Plaid in general. There are a lot of good people in Plaid, but ... at the fringes ...

Parliamentary debate today: reopening the railway between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen

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