Transport for Wales bookings 16/02

Starmill · 12 Jan 2019

Earlier today, I made a booking for Saturday 16th February on trainsplit.com. I'm travelling from Mauldeth Road to Watford Junction.

I've just reviewed my booking confirmation and found something strange. Here is an extract my confirmation email:

Board the 08:13 Northern service to Liverpool Lime Street. details
Ticket used: Mauldeth Road to Stockport. You have reserved a place on this service, but individual seat reservations are not possible.
You'll arrive at Manchester Piccadilly at 08:20. Leave the train here.

You have a 10 minute wait at Manchester Piccadilly station. facilities.

Board the 08:30 Transport For Wales service to Milford Haven. details
Ticket used: Mauldeth Road to Stockport. You have reserved a seat in coach A: 40A (window, airline).
You'll arrive at Stockport at 08:39, but stay on board, you're just splitting tickets here.
Ticket used: Stockport to Crewe. You have reserved a seat in coach A: 40A (window, airline). why?
You'll arrive at Crewe at 09:06. Leave the train here.

You have a 13 minute wait at Crewe station. facilities.

Board the 09:19 West Midlands Trains service to Birmingham New Street. details
Ticket used: Crewe to Watford Junction. You have reserved a place on this service, but individual seat reservations are not possible.
You'll arrive at Birmingham New Street at 10:18. Leave the train here.

You have a 15 minute wait at Birmingham New Street station. facilities.

Board the 10:33 West Midlands Trains service to London Euston. details
Ticket used: Crewe to Watford Junction. You have reserved a place on this service, but individual seat reservations are not possible.
You'll arrive at Watford Junction at 12:30

However, consulting National Rail Enquiries, we find this:

Engineering work is taking place between Manchester Piccadilly and Crewe on Saturday 16 and Sunday 17 February, closing all lines.

The following changes to the train service will apply:
...
Transport for Wales:

All day Saturday and Sunday trains will start from / terminate at Manchester Oxford Road and will be diverted by Warrington Bank Quay. Buses will run between Stockport, Wilmslow and Crewe.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/207706.aspx

This isn't a particularly helpful situation for either myself or my chosen merchant (whom I paid a fee to!) to be placed in by Transport for Wales. Either the engineering work has been announced in the past few hours, at ludicrous late notice, or they've created a problem with their timetable data upload. Note that I've specifically chosen to reserve a seat. Why does this keep happening?

RailUK Forums

Mathew S · 12 Jan 2019

I realise it's of no help to you, but the engineering notice on the National Rail website does say:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/207706.aspx said:
If you are travelling with Transport for Wales, these changes are not currently shown in the National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner, please check back nearer to the time of travel.

Starmill · 12 Jan 2019

Mathew S said:
I realise it's of no help to you, but the engineering notice on the National Rail website does say:

If anything, this makes the breach even more serious.

Those words could almost be read as if they're intentionally uploading incorrect data. Obviously, that would be ridiculous, and I'm sure it isn't what happened. However, it seems like either malice or a very serious level of incompetence to knowingly accept bookings for trains which will be cancelled?

30907 · 12 Jan 2019

Starmill said:
If anything, this makes the breach even more serious.

Those words could almost be read as if they're intentionally uploading incorrect data. Obviously, that would be ridiculous, and I'm sure it isn't what happened.

This is not the only recent example.
Surely the problem is that the data is already uploaded and therefore by default the trains are bookable until the revisions are made (which should have been sooner).
I am not sure what the solution is, but the TOCs are obliged to convey you somehow (though Maudleth Rd may be a challenge if RMT strike again).

Starmill · 12 Jan 2019

30907 said:
Maudleth Rd may be a challenge if RMT strike again

Indeed. But what is one to do in this situation, especially after such a long time? Put one's life on hold, awaiting the convenience of the RMT?

On the matter at hand, it's a really poor show for Transport for Wales to do this. It provides misleading information to the customer, it creates complaints which the retailer then has to expend resources dealing with, it increases the number of difficulties that station staff deal with on the day of travel, it puts TfW themselves into disrepute and it could create an inconvenience for their fellow train operators, in this case West Midlands Trains, who may then need to make arrangements for travel on later services when connections are not met on Advance tickets.

gray1404 · 12 Jan 2019

At this point in time you are entitled to a full refund.

You are entitled to travel at your usual time and be allowed travel on the next services in the event of arriving at Crewe too late for your connection. In fact you may be allowed to travel on the next WMT to Milton Keynes then change there for Watford Junction and if so you might recover some time. If you arrive at your destination late then you can claim delay repay. Although it appears you may have to make your own way to Manchester Piccadilly. Could you perhaps do this by bus?

I would also say, given it is a bus service from Manchester to Crewe and they are never so concerned with passengers travelling at the right time on a RRB, just that they do hold a ticket. You could travel earlier so that you get to Crewe in time for your booked train.

30907 · 13 Jan 2019

And in the circumstances you could reasonably use TfW from Oxford Road to Crewe.

Starmill · 27 Jan 2019

Mathew S said:
I realise it's of no help to you, but the engineering notice on the National Rail website does say:

A couple of weeks on and TfW services are still available to reserve in the normal way.

Perhaps they aren't going to be amended. The other companies, even CrossCountry, have had buses showing on this route since I created this thread.

30907 · 27 Jan 2019

Very peculiar, as the revised times are now input (eg on RTT), including the RRBs, but they do not show on an OJP.
EDIT: sorry, the revised trains only show on RTT for Sunday, the RRBs are in both days.

Starmill · 27 Jan 2019

30907 said:
Very peculiar, as the revised times are now input (eg on RTT), including the RRBs, but they do not show on an OJP.
EDIT: sorry, the revised trains only show on RTT for Sunday, the RRBs are in both days.

Hm! Most unusual.

Starmill · 14 Feb 2019

As I'm travelling in a few days I collected my tickets and went into the ticket office this afternoon to ask what they thought. I was entirely unsurprised to hear that their view was that if I wished to use my tickets, rather than send them in for refund, I would need to use the 0748 rail replacement bus from Stockport to Crewe. This would permit me to pick up the booked trains onward.

Obviously I disagree with this interpretation but I have no interest in unseemly arguing, so I said a polite thank you and left. I don't intend to get out of bed earlier than planned though, particularly a whole hour earlier.

gray1404 · 15 Feb 2019

I guess that is one option for you if you wanted to arrive at your destination for your booked time. The other option of course is that you start travelling at the booked time.

I would suggest you board one of the TFW hourly services from Oxford Road to Crewe. Under the circumstances that you booked train no longer exists you are merely taking an alternative service with the same company.

If you arrive in Crewe after 09.19 having missed your connection, I would take the next direct WMT to Milton Keynes Central (or indeed catch it up with a change at Stafford) and change there if quicker.

mmh · 15 Feb 2019

Starmill said:
As I'm travelling in a few days I collected my tickets and went into the ticket office this afternoon to ask what they thought. I was entirely unsurprised to hear that their view was that if I wished to use my tickets, rather than send them in for refund, I would need to use the 0748 rail replacement bus from Stockport to Crewe. This would permit me to pick up the booked trains onward.

Obviously I disagree with this interpretation but I have no interest in unseemly arguing, so I said a polite thank you and left. I don't intend to get out of bed earlier than planned though, particularly a whole hour earlier.

Well, surely your only options are either travelling earlier, arriving later, or not travelling. It doesn't sound like the ticket office staff said anything unhelpful.

krus_aragon · 15 Feb 2019

mmh said:
Well, surely your only options are either travelling earlier, arriving later, or not travelling. It doesn't sound like the ticket office staff said anything unhelpful.

As I read it, they didn't suggest the "arriving later" option.

Starmill · 15 Feb 2019

krus_aragon said:
As I read it, they didn't suggest the "arriving later" option.

Exactly correct. As I hinted at, they said two options exist - to refund the tickets or depart early. They were reasonably clear, by saying these were the only choices, that departing on time wasn't going to be permitted. Hence my disagreement of views. Tomorrow we shall see what happens.

LNW-GW Joint · 16 Feb 2019

Well it's too late now, but you could have caught the 0800 from Mauldeth Road (Airport-Liverpool) and changed at Oxford Road into the TfW service starting there at 0820.
Then change at Crewe as per your itinerary.
I don't know why you are blaming TfW particularly, they usually divert to Oxford Road if there are problems via Wilmslow.
The fault lies with Network Rail for not observing the 12-week rule for timetable changes, but we've known that for about a year since the timetable problems started.
Late engineering work is unfortunately a fact of life, especially at weekends.
Leaving at this time there were faster ways of getting to Watford Jn, involving XC to Stafford and then LNR via Nuneaton.
Even faster using Virgin.

ForTheLoveOf · 16 Feb 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Well it's too late now, but you could have caught the 0800 from Mauldeth Road (Airport-Liverpool) and changed at Oxford Road into the TfW service starting there at 0820.
Then change at Crewe as per your itinerary.
I don't know why you are blaming TfW particularly, they usually divert to Oxford Road if there are problems via Wilmslow.
The fault lies with Network Rail for not observing the 12-week rule for timetable changes, but we've known that for about a year since the timetable problems started.
Late engineering work is unfortunately a fact of life, especially at weekends.
Leaving at this time there were faster ways of getting to Watford Jn, involving XC to Stafford and then LNR via Nuneaton.
Even faster using Virgin.

It's TfW's fault for opening up reservations on services where they don't have confirmation of the final timetable. Other TOCs have been handling this more correctly, as they have blocked reservations until they know the final timetable (much to the chagrin of passengers used to booking 12 weeks in advance).

Network Rail's failures might be a contributing factor to the situation, but the root cause undeniably lies with TfW not handling that situation in an appropriate manner. And in any case, the passenger doesn't have a contract with Network Rail, they hold it with TfW. It is none of their business which subcontractors TfW choose to engage to deliver their contractual obligations of travel, and what limitations those subcontractors place on TfW's ability to deliver on their obligations.

Starmill · 16 Feb 2019

I'm currently on the bus from Stockport to Crewe which was caught with no problem and is broadly on time, so things aren't going badly.

LNW-GW Joint said:
I don't know why you are blaming TfW particularly, they usually divert to Oxford Road if there are problems via Wilmslow

Is somebody else responsible for selling me a ticket on a train that it was already known would not be running, then? In particular why was reservation open if they know reservations won't be honoured, and why wasn't there better information?

LNW-GW Joint said:
The fault lies with Network Rail for not observing the 12-week rule for timetable changes, but we've known that for about a year since the timetable problems started.

I don't have any contract with Network Rail on which to rely, unfortunately. But I do with Transport for Wales.

LNW-GW Joint said:
Leaving at this time there were faster ways of getting to Watford Jn, involving XC to Stafford and then LNR via Nuneaton.
Even faster using Virgin.

I agree - this would have been my strong preference. Transport for Wales should have put the appropriate ticket acceptance in place for this. Unfortunately, they chose not to, which means they will likely now have to pay Delay Repay instead.

Starmill · 16 Feb 2019

I arrived at Crewe at 1000 and went to the ticket office to ask about my tickets. They didn't endorse them, but said that the next train is the 1102 service from platform 4 and I should take that.

LNW-GW Joint · 16 Feb 2019

Starmill said:
I arrived at Crewe at 1000 and went to the ticket office to ask about my tickets. They didn't endorse them, but said that the next train is the 1102 service from platform 4 and I should take that.

I don't know exactly what sort of tickets you had, but the 1019 LNW Crewe-Birmingham connects with the 1002 LNW Crewe-Euston via Stoke at Stafford, so you could have gained an hour that way if your tickets allowed it.
It would need another change at Milton Keynes, but you probably did that anyway on the 1102.

aar0 · 17 Feb 2019

I've had a similar experience with ATW, except I didn't know about the engineering works until the day I travelled - and despite the 2 or 3 hours extra travelling time because of it I never received a refund, even after raising it with the rail users' body. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swansea-newcastle-split-tickets.164927/

gray1404 · 17 Feb 2019

Why didn't you get a direct service from Oxford Road to Crewe today? And possibly a LNW service direct from Crewe to Milton Keynes Central and then change there for Watford Junction (thus avoiding Birmingham)? Did you want to give yourself a longer journey on purpose?

Starmill · 18 Feb 2019

gray1404 said:
Why didn't you get a direct service from Oxford Road to Crewe today?

The bus arrived at Crewe before the train from Manchester Oxford Road did, and although I asked many times TfW gave only confused half-answers on twitter about what they thought. I wasn't averse to the bus journey, indeed I had the bus almost to myself.

gray1404 said:
And possibly a LNW service direct from Crewe to Milton Keynes Central and then change there for Watford Junction (thus avoiding Birmingham)?

Did you see my post below?

Starmill said:
I arrived at Crewe at 1000 and went to the ticket office to ask about my tickets. They didn't endorse them, but said that the next train is the 1102 service from platform 4 and I should take that.

gray1404 said:
Did you want to give yourself a longer journey on purpose?

I don't see how anybody could see the information in this thread and conclude this.

mmh · 18 Feb 2019

Starmill said:
The bus arrived at Crewe before the train from Manchester Oxford Road did, and although I asked many times TfW gave only confused half-answers on twitter about what they thought. I wasn't averse to the bus journey, indeed I had the bus almost to myself.

Did you see my post below?

I don't see how anybody could see the information in this thread and conclude this.

You'd have ended up on the same train from Crewe had you gone to Oxford Road rather than use the bus.

(And have had the best part of an hour's wait at Crewe)

yorkie · 18 Feb 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
I don't know exactly what sort of tickets you had, but the 1019 LNW Crewe-Birmingham connects with the 1002 LNW Crewe-Euston via Stoke at Stafford, so you could have gained an hour that way if your tickets allowed it....

The tickets did not allow that and the relevant train companies were not willing to allow it.

It's often considered preferable by some train companies for customers to be delayed rather than be allowed to take faster trains operated by rival companies, even if this increases the company's liability for Delay Repay claims.

gray1404 said:
Why didn't you get a direct service from Oxford Road to Crewe today? And possibly a LNW service direct from Crewe to Milton Keynes Central and then change there for Watford Junction (thus avoiding Birmingham)? Did you want to give yourself a longer journey on purpose?

I am puzzled as to why you think that. The person who suggested a longer journey was the ticket office staff, though it is more likely to be through incompetence and/or laziness than on purpose.

Starmill · 20 Feb 2019

I had really hoped that my polite email expressing my disappointment at the delay I experienced because of their last-minute change to timetables and requesting compensation under their Delay Repay scheme would be the end of the matter. I think that's reasonable and I don't really see how any argument contrary to it could be made.

Unfortunately, and perhaps unsurprisingly, they've refused to pay, and have effectively blamed me for their poor service by saying "as the engineering works were advertised appropriately" they are "unable" to organise compensation.

The industry seems to have a serious problem here. Someone is in denial.

yorkie · 20 Feb 2019

Refer them to your booking confirmation email and state this evidence of your contracted itinerary, and therefore any compensation is payable with reference to that itinerary.

If they send a "deadlock" letter then it's ombudsman time!

ForTheLoveOf · 20 Feb 2019

Starmill said:
I had really hoped that my polite email expressing my disappointment at the delay I experienced because of their last-minute change to timetables and requesting compensation under their Delay Repay scheme would be the end of the matter. I think that's reasonable and I don't really see how any argument contrary to it could be made.

Unfortunately, and perhaps unsurprisingly, they've refused to pay, and have effectively blamed me for their poor service by saying "as the engineering works were advertised appropriately" they are "unable" to organise compensation.

The industry seems to have a serious problem here. Someone is in denial.

Oh dear. Perhaps some industry-wide training on the basics of contract law (in relation to the railway) is in order.

krus_aragon · 20 Feb 2019

TfW include the following disclaimer in their Passenger Charter:

If we introduce an emergency timetable and full details are on our website the day before, entitlement to ‘Delay Repay’ compensation will normally be measured against the revised timetable.

(Note that this disclaimer isn't attached to the right to a refund, just the delay repay.)

I wouldn't say planned engineering works result in an emergency timetable, though.

ForTheLoveOf · 20 Feb 2019

krus_aragon said:
TfW include the following disclaimer in their Passenger Charter:

(Note that this disclaimer isn't attached to the right to a refund, just the delay repay.)

I wouldn't say planned engineering works result in an emergency timetable, though.

Indeed, although that can, if it is at all enforceable (which I severely doubt), only restrict the entitlement to compensation above and beyond what the NRCoT entitle the passenger to (50% of the relevant portion of the ticket back, for a delay of 60 minutes or more).

Transport for Wales bookings 16/02

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